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Have EU Elites Learned Anything?

Henrin said:
How do you have more power to trade when you give up control over it? Control is what breeds power, so giving it up doesn't give you more power.

It seems to me they went from being the sole arbitrator over their nations trade and immigration to having a vote.
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Countries have a lot more power when they negotiate in groups and that is what the EU allows. The EU has massive power, you have to go long with what the EU wants and the EU only wants what is best for its members. The EU does snot have to really give up anything but a country like the UK would have to give up a lot.
 
THE death sentence of liberalism has come because of their gigantic imbalance of young to old.... INSTEAD of them waking up and stopping the cause... liberalism they stubbornly tried to solve the problem with running in the young that MADE third world nations .. UK vote was the first domino to fall that will include all of europe and america and canada and will end liberalism world wide
 
Carjosse said:
Countries have a lot more power when they negotiate in groups and that is what the EU allows. The EU has massive power, you have to go long with what the EU wants and the EU only wants what is best for its members. The EU does snot have to really give up anything but a country like the UK would have to give up a lot.
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Actually they commonly don't. The UN for example is basically run by a small group of nations while everyone else has very little say at all.

Regardless of any of that if the EU or the UN is going to have any power at all the nations themselves must give up control. Otherwise, the EU or the UN is nothing more an annoying group that has no authority.
 
Carjosse said:
That is not free movement, in the EU all citizens of the EU have the right to live and work in any EU country indefinitely, well as long they are not some deadbeat. There are millions of Britons living in the EU because of that free movement that this just ruined the lives of. Also see my other thread in the Europe section about how their votes weren't counted. It is a great idea in Europe.
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Staying indefinitely is not movement. ;)
 
Henrin said:
Actually they commonly don't. The UN for example is basically run by a small group of nations while everyone else has very little say at all.

Regardless of any of that if the EU or the UN is going to have any power at all the nations themselves must give up control. Otherwise, the EU or the UN is nothing more an annoying group that has no authority.
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The UN and the EU are two completely different things. That serve two very different purposes. In the EU all members have a voice, for example any member can veto anything. Part of the reason Turkey can never join, Cyprus or Greece will veto it not matter what. Same with trade deals, if one country does not like it, the trade deal does not go ahead. Germany did that with Canada's trade deal even though every other country agreed.
 
PeteEU said:
Yes they are, but they are used quite often..

Listen, the EU has one priority.. the EU. It has to protect its member states, and the UK is not one of them any more. So why should the EU care what the consequences are for the UK? The UK car manufactures are a threat to car manufactures in Europe. The devaluation of the pound means those cars are artificially lower in price. Hence the EU has to react to protect EU members interests. This can be done by tarriffs, or putting in place a ban on car imports from the UK or any number of actions to protect the EU members. Just one of many examples.

Another one that the leave campaign has totally ignored. Banking. The EU could (they might already have.. not sure tbh) put in place, stating that a bank trading in the EU must be registered in the EU. That means suddenly that a ton of banks and financial institutions have to move their trading and registration to the EU from the UK. Hell the EU banking authority is placed in London.. that has to move now, taking with it a lot of jobs.

There are plenty of things that the UK now has to deal with, and the EU does not have to treat them any different than say Angola or Mongolia. Why should they? If the UK wants different access than Mongolia, then she has to negotiate with the EU for this access.. and with that comes demands from the EU.
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And therin lies the cognitive dissonance of so many Euros...

Trump proposes Tariff for the U.S.=bad
Eu proposes Tariffs for Eurpeans =fine

You're a dishonest person lacking in moral and intellectual integrity. It would be sad except you're a European so your opinion essentially doesn't matter.
 
reinoe said:
And therin lies the cognitive dissonance of so many Euros...

Trump proposes Tariff for the U.S.=bad
Eu proposes Tariffs for Eurpeans =fine

You're a dishonest person lacking in moral and intellectual integrity. It would be sad except you're a European so your opinion essentially doesn't matter.
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There is a difference between a normal tariff and what Trump wants to do. The tariffs the EU has are just enough to discourage some trade with whatever country they are trading with so countries will generally prefer EU products. What Trump wants to do is implement tariffs that stop trading and make it unprofitable to produce anything. There is a difference between creating a preference and prohibiting trade.
 
Carjosse said:
There is a difference between a normal tariff and what Trump wants to do. The tariffs the EU has are just enough to discourage some trade with whatever country they are trading with so countries will generally prefer EU products. What Trump wants to do is implement tariffs that stop trading and make it unprofitable to produce anything. There is a difference between creating a preference and prohibiting trade.
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Non-sense
 
blaxshep said:
Non-sense
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No, that is actually what he said he wants to do. He said he wanted to bring manufacturing back and he was going to use tariffs to do it. The only way he could do that is make tariffs so high it becomes cost prohibitive to manufacture anything overseas, but all that will do is just drive prices up.
 
reinoe said:
And therin lies the cognitive dissonance of so many Euros...

Trump proposes Tariff for the U.S.=bad
Eu proposes Tariffs for Eurpeans =fine

You're a dishonest person lacking in moral and intellectual integrity. It would be sad except you're a European so your opinion essentially doesn't matter.
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What does this have to do with that moron Trump? Trumps proposals usually have a personal economic aspect.. what has he proposed to put tariffs on?

As for tariffs, they are pretty much automatic when you are alone out there in the world. You have to negotiate with countries to lower them. WTO has rules on this subject, including when a country can put punitive or protective tariffs on. That does not mean that a country will do it. The US and EU have for years had plenty of reasons to put tariffs on Chinese goods, and have in fact done so on certain things.. steel being one of the more recent.

As a principle I think tariffs are bad, but when countries use methods like devaluation or subsidies to lower the price of say steel or cars so get a competitive edge or even "thin out the competition", then it is the duty of the other countries to stand up and counter act that. We dont live in a free trade zone around the world.... the UK is now outside the biggest free trade zone and has to live with the consequence of that.

US goods get no special treatment in the EU.. why? because we have no trade deal with the US. The US bans forigen ownership of airlines and media... that is just as bad as a tariff no? The real world outside the EU and US is very different .. there is no such thing as "free trade"..
 
The Tariffs WILL make america more prosperous again.... WHY because the cost of a weak middle class caused by un fair wage nations that lowers items costs costs much more with the problems that comes with a weak middle class...

america will have the unwise working instead of collecting welfare and committed costly crimes... this is why THE CONSERVATIVE STATES OF AMERICA will secede and have a wisdom test for its voters
 
The response stages to grief is anger, denial, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I suspect that they are in stage 2 now. They will never get to acceptance as they "know" that truth and history is on their side.
They will just continue to find ways to achieve their goals and damn the masses who oppose.
 
Only liberals and other beta types would be ok with entities outside the US border making decisions that affect US lives so we shouldn't expect the UK to be much different. Globalization is a natural evolution of the world community - but globalization in pursuit of a collective is completely unnatural and will never succeed. Suck it, statists. You will always ultimately lose.
 
Henrin said:
That's just ****ing stupid. While I don't agree with a nation restricting trade or it seems highly erroneous in the modern world for a nation to not have the power to control their own trade. Even if you're nation is part of some silly group there is no reason to give up all your authority to control trade.

It's also dumb to give up your rights to control access to your country. I can understand agreeing with a group of other nations that you will all allow access to each other, but to give up your control to control access to your country is dangerous and frankly retarded.
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Don't shoot the messenger. ;)
 
LowDown said:
The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!
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The UK will likely have a choice. either get tariffs on your products up the yin yang or abide by our rules. My guess the EU will slap the brits hard for making this mess.
 
this issue tells why trump has white men on his side... its because of their higher logic to understand good from bad and progress from failure.. he is teddy roosevelt stopping monopolies and bringing competition from WITHIN white men is where the real power is because of their highest logic
 
LowDown said:
The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!
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They certainly have identified the scapegoat for the mishap in the poor, the uneducated and the elderly and are building a narrative around this that has spread nicely through the media with the speed such lovely discriminatory explanations tend to. One reporter on public tv asked whether people with only 20 more years to live should be allowed to spoil the lives of the young.
 
katzgar said:
The UK will likely have a choice. either get tariffs on your products up the yin yang or abide by our rules. My guess the EU will slap the brits hard for making this mess.
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Tariffs are always a mistake. That sort of petulance can be very costly.
 
joG said:
They certainly have identified the scapegoat for the mishap in the poor, the uneducated and the elderly and are building a narrative around this that has spread nicely through the media with the speed such lovely discriminatory explanations tend to. One reporter on public tv asked whether people with only 20 more years to live should be allowed to spoil the lives of the young.
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That will come back to bite them.
 
tariffs can work very well.. and people are missing the big point.. that a strong middle class is needed for real progress of a nation

and clintons nafta and gatt destroyed americans jobs and the middle class....the reason why tariffs can work well for america is that america is self sufficient with the best natural resources in the world and the best food supply...

the world needs america's stuff a lot more than we need theirs... and a loss of higher cost items at walmart will be offset by a strong middle class and less crime and less many other expenses
 
Frankly, Americans should look on the incipient EU break-up with jaundiced eyes. Rampant European nationalism coupled with jingoism caused two world wars last century, wars that we had to fight in.

In short, a united Europe is preferable to a disunited one, at least from a rational American's perspective.
 
LowDown said:
The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!
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They also learned that people are easily manipulated by the use of dog whistles.
 
Looks like UK stock is winning again against germany stock... half of the third day UK and france stock jockeying who will win today barely and germany lagging behind after 2 days of UK blowing both france and germany out of the water and all nations in the euro each of the first 2 days

the older folks past 25 voted in a landslide to exit... more wise is what comes with experience.. so this simply is a wisdom issue the more conservative the more wise and successful
 
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