Have EU Elites Learned Anything?

[LowDown]

The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!

 

[Tigerace117]

The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!

Not the same thing honestly.....

Frankly I don't think leaving the EU was the best move.

"We'll still have a ****-ton of beaucracy, only it'll be English beaucrats, damn it, not some stinking frog beaucrat!"

 

[Carjosse]

The Brexiters want all the benefits of being of in the EU without paying for it nor following their rules. If you want to participate in the EU you are goign to have play by their rules and their bureaucracy regardless.

 

[Henrin]

The Brexiters want all the benefits of being of in the EU without paying for it nor following their rules. If you want to participate in the EU you are goign to have play by their rules and their bureaucracy regardless.

Excuse my ignorance but what do they want that the EU offers?

 

[PeteEU]

The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!

Question, what EU bureaucrats are you talking about and what EU elites?

 

[Carjosse]

Excuse my ignorance but what do they want that the EU offers?

Mainly participation in the EU common market, probably also free movement for Britons.

 

[Henrin]

Mainly participation in the EU common market, probably also free movement for Britons.

EU common market? Do you mean trade? Why do they need to be member of the EU for that? As for free movement I see no reason that individual countries couldn't just decide to give them similar permissions to that of the EU.

It doesn't seem to me that the EU is needed for either one of those things.

 

[joG]

The short answer is "no".

The initial shock of the Brexit vote was followed by a wave of indignation against the "uneducated, racist, xenophobic" rubes who voted. There was no realization that voters were on to the fact that EU bureaucrats are good at feathering their own nests but lousy at making ordinary citizens more prosperous and happy.

The EU bureaucrats did have enough insight to at least pause their nutty regulation for a while for fear of fanning anti-EU sentiment. So they stopped issuing regulations on toasters, tea kettles, and other kitchen appliances. (They are supposedly over-powered.) They put specifications on the shape of bananas on hold. Now that the vote is done, however, they are right back, hard at work, issuing regulations that mean that people will have to wait three or four times longer for the water to boil for tea.

Elites have pushed policies that go against the basic sense of identity, security, common sense, and morality of many citizens.

The people of the UK no longer have to put up with this, and that, more than any imagined racism, is the point.

The bottom line is that the EU took a good idea -- the idea of an economic union -- and seriously overplayed their hand until it was controlling the most minute aspects of the EU citizen's life. Fie on all that, say the Brits.

Let the US Federal government take note!

With notable exemptions the EU grandees are beginning to understand that they have overplayed. If I am right, they will realize what Cameron’s saying that article 50 would not be triggered immediately means for them, when he speaks to them on Tuesday. They did not make the concessions he needed and will now have to restructure the EU constitution with the UK at the table. It will be this or risk seeing the EU pop up as toast. It is even probable that many of them are beginning to understand that the euro might have to go.

 

[Carjosse]

EU common market? Do you mean trade? Why do they need to be member of the EU for that? As for free movement I see no reason that individual countries couldn't just decide to give them similar permissions to that of the EU.

Yes, trade with the EU. As an EU member they get unrestricted open access to it. They still want that but do not want to pay for it nor follow EU regulation. Individual countries could but they probably will not unless they agree to the whole EU. If the Uk wants to deal with the EU, they need to follow its rules.

 

[PeteEU]

Excuse my ignorance but what do they want that the EU offers?

500 million person market, free trade, free movement of people and goods (and money) and so on and so on. If the UK does not manage to negotiate a deal with the EU, then 2 years from now, UK citizens will have to have work permits in Europe to be able to stay, all UK goods will have at a minimum a 10% tariff put on them.. in some cases I can see a higher tariff depending on how much the value of the pound is devalued. UK citizens wanting to come to Europe will have to get a visa to come here, and so on and so on. Life for Brits will change dramatically and it will be felt on the personal level when they travel outside the UK.

And lets not forget, this is not just an EU thing.. the UK will have to negotiate with every single country on the planet and will be in a weakened negotiating position.

 

[Henrin]

Yes, trade with the EU. As an EU member they get unrestricted open access to it. They still want that but do not want to pay for it nor follow EU regulation.

Why can't nations just trade with them freely? I fail to understand why someone needs to follow some EU regulation for a member of the EU to decide on trade arrangements with them.

It seems to me that opponents of the UK leaving are creating a problem that otherwise doesn't need to be there.

 

[Henrin]

500 million person market, free trade, free movement of people and goods (and money) and so on and so on. If the UK does not manage to negotiate a deal with the EU, then 2 years from now, UK citizens will have to have work permits in Europe to be able to stay, all UK goods will have at a minimum a 10% tariff put on them.. in some cases I can see a higher tariff depending on how much the value of the pound is devalued. UK citizens wanting to come to Europe will have to get a visa to come here, and so on and so on. Life for Brits will change dramatically and it will be felt on the personal level when they travel outside the UK.

And lets not forget, this is not just an EU thing.. the UK will have to negotiate with every single country on the planet and will be in a weakened negotiating position.

Why in the world does the UK even need to talk to the EU? Can the individual nations not speak for themselves when it comes to trade with outside members?

And the tariffs are ridiculous on their face. There doesn't appear to be any reason for them besides the fact that the EU wants to punish them.

 

[joG]

EU common market? Do you mean trade? Why do they need to be member of the EU for that? As for free movement I see no reason that individual countries couldn't just decide to give them similar permissions to that of the EU.

It doesn't seem to me that the EU is needed for either one of those things.

For the same trade regulation a free trade agreement would have to be negotiated. This is not easy, as those with other countries show. And no, the countries in the Schengen Treaty are not permitted to negotiate free movement with a non member.

 

[Henrin]

For the same trade regulation a free trade agreement would have to be negotiated. This is not easy, as those with other countries show. And no, the countries in the Schengen Treaty are not permitted to negotiate free movement with a non member.

That's just ****ing stupid. While I don't agree with a nation restricting trade or it seems highly erroneous in the modern world for a nation to not have the power to control their own trade. Even if you're nation is part of some silly group there is no reason to give up all your authority to control trade.

It's also dumb to give up your rights to control access to your country. I can understand agreeing with a group of other nations that you will all allow access to each other, but to give up your control to control access to your country is dangerous and frankly retarded.

 

[reinoe]

all UK goods will have at a minimum a 10% tariff put on them..

Why would the E.U. put tariffs on UK goods? Haven't your crowd enlessly howled about how tariffs are always bad no matter what the circumstances are?

 

[Carjosse]

Why can't nations just trade with them freely? I fail to understand why someone needs to follow some EU regulation for a member of the EU to decide on trade arrangements with them.

It seems to me that opponents of the UK leaving are creating a problem that otherwise doesn't need to be there.

Because of the EU, they have agreed to negotiate as a trade bloc so they have more power. It is also more worthwhile to have an agreement with all members than just a select few. The EU has the largest economy in the world, and a large population with high incomes and a lot of disposable income.

 

[Carjosse]

Why would the E.U. put tariffs on UK goods? Haven't your crowd enlessly howled about how tariffs are always bad no matter what the circumstances are?

Why should they not, the UK left. It is like punching the owner of a nightclub in the face yelling about how you want nothing to do with them and asking to be let back in. Countries outside of the EU have to pay tariffs, the UK will be outside of the EU.

 

[Henrin]

Why should they not, the UK left. It is like punching the owner of a nightclub in the face yelling about how you want nothing to do with them and asking to be let back in.

Why should they? Leaving a group of people shouldn't mean that the group of people you left gets all pissy and decides to kick you in the nuts.

 

[PeteEU]

Why in the world does the UK even need to talk to the EU? Can the individual nations not speak for themselves when it comes to trade with outside members?

LOL err you have no idea what the EU is??!?! It is a common market... which means the EU negotiates with non EU countries on behalf of the member nations. Cant have a common market that is full of different trade deals with other countries outside the trade block.. kinda defeats the purpose.

And the tariffs are ridiculous on their face. There doesn't appear to be any reason for them besides the fact that the EU wants to punish them.

Unless you negotiate with a country, then they have the right to put a 10% tarriffs on all goods according to WTO (a tad more complicated than that but still). Most countries do this.

Now because the UK is not part of the club anymore so to say, then it has to live by the trade rules of the planet and they are not pretty. If the EU thinks that the UK is for example artificially devaluing their currency to improve their competitiveness, then the EU is full within its rights to do something about it. A good example is China. The right in the US has for a hell of a long time wanted to throw high tarriffs on Chinese goods because of the Chinese manipulation of their currency. The US has not done so.. yet, mostly because of the economic power of China. Now the UK is no China.. so if she does something similar, then there will be consequences. Another example is the EU is putting on extra high tarriffs on Chinese steel, because they are dumping their overproduction on the world market, and it is deflating the price of steel and hence making the EU steel makers loose money.

Tarriffs are used all the time, as are crazy standard rules to prevent competition. For example, you cant import a car made in Europe to the US, because the US has massively different standards on headlights. It is a clear trade barrier put up to protect the US car industry and force overseas car producers to set up factories in the US.

Now that the Uk is out of the EU, then she will be attacked on all fronts by everyone to gain a competitive advantage over her... not just from the EU.. in fact I would claim the EU is the least of her worries.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Mainly participation in the EU common market, probably also free movement for Britons.

The USA is not in the EU and US citizens seem quite free to gallop around and conduct their business in EU territory. The indignity of being occasionally asked to show a passport is hardly worth getting greatly upset over. Open borders is not the world's greatest idea.

 

[Carjosse]

Why should they? Leaving a group of people shouldn't mean that the group of people you left gets all pissy and decides to kick you in the nuts.

The UK basically said we want nothing to do with the EU, but still wants free access.

 

[Henrin]

Because of the EU, they have agreed to negotiate as a trade bloc so they have more power. It is also more worthwhile to have an agreement with all members than just a select few. The EU has the largest economy in the world, and a large population with high incomes and a lot of disposable income.

How do you have more power to trade when you give up control over it? Control is what breeds power, so giving it up doesn't give you more power.

It seems to me they went from being the sole arbitrator over their nations trade and immigration to having a vote.

 

[Carjosse]

The USA is not in the EU and US citizens seem quite free to gallop around and conduct their business in EU territory. The indignity of being occasionally asked to show a passport is hardly worth getting greatly upset over. Open borders is not the world's greatest idea.

That is not free movement, in the EU all citizens of the EU have the right to live and work in any EU country indefinitely, well as long they are not some deadbeat. There are millions of Britons living in the EU because of that free movement that this just ruined the lives of. Also see my other thread in the Europe section about how their votes weren't counted. It is a great idea in Europe.

 

[joG]

Why in the world does the UK even need to talk to the EU? Can the individual nations not speak for themselves when it comes to trade with outside members?

And the tariffs are ridiculous on their face. There doesn't appear to be any reason for them besides the fact that the EU wants to punish them.

Nope. The Lisbon Treaty stipulates regulation of foreign trade as a mandate of the EU.

 

[PeteEU]

Why would the E.U. put tariffs on UK goods? Haven't your crowd enlessly howled about how tariffs are always bad no matter what the circumstances are?

Yes they are, but they are used quite often..

Listen, the EU has one priority.. the EU. It has to protect its member states, and the UK is not one of them any more. So why should the EU care what the consequences are for the UK? The UK car manufactures are a threat to car manufactures in Europe. The devaluation of the pound means those cars are artificially lower in price. Hence the EU has to react to protect EU members interests. This can be done by tarriffs, or putting in place a ban on car imports from the UK or any number of actions to protect the EU members. Just one of many examples.

Another one that the leave campaign has totally ignored. Banking. The EU could (they might already have.. not sure tbh) put in place, stating that a bank trading in the EU must be registered in the EU. That means suddenly that a ton of banks and financial institutions have to move their trading and registration to the EU from the UK. Hell the EU banking authority is placed in London.. that has to move now, taking with it a lot of jobs.

There are plenty of things that the UK now has to deal with, and the EU does not have to treat them any different than say Angola or Mongolia. Why should they? If the UK wants different access than Mongolia, then she has to negotiate with the EU for this access.. and with that comes demands from the EU.