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Has time came for unification?

DDD

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The country that I call "Dardania" is in fact this:

Who Recognized Kosova? The Kosovar people thank you - Who Recognized Kosovo and Who Recognizes Kosovo

The countries in blue on the map represent countries that have recognized our independence declared in 2008, the ones in gray have not still, and the ones in yellow are considering it. It takes 2/3's of UN countries to recognize a countries independence so as we would be an independent UN member. As you can see it there we are at 101 now.

Another 28 to go and we will be with the UN. I think there are 5 countries in EU that have not yet recognized us. So generally we are getting there.

But, technically Dardania and Albania are the same people divided by force from Serbs during 1878 while the Ottoman Empire was retreating (we thought they would protect us but underestimated Russia). We have endured several atrocities, genocides, looting, re-arrangements of wealth, forced dislocations, and assimilation attempts from Serbs since then during: 1912, 1945, and the one you saw in 1999.

Now here is the deal. We are small and surrounded by foes (like Israel). Our foes are relentless with their unfriendly propaganda that you may observe in RT. The attitudes are generally polarized and favoring the Serbian interpretation in extreme bias (this after all we went through).

Though we have NATO troops stationed here to guarantee peace and we are basically untouchable by that much, we have had other countries guaranteeing peace even before. We had Austria, Deutchland, Britain during the 1900's, but then they went to war with one another (tearing the guarantees with that).

NATO troops may not always be here for it is costing them to be here, and sooner or later there may be other pressing priorities that may drive the troops away from here. You never know what may happen in the future. Out of all possibilities lets just take for instance something of a third origin. Whatever, lets say the weather and how it is expected that it too may cause future wars:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/envir...agw-consensus-come-end-26.html#post1062141195

When other trouble may arise there is the risk of NATO troops attending other crisis and there may be a repeated drama from Serbs yet again. This may be the case especially since as you may see in RT they have highly polarized views about everything related to Dardania (e.g., Serbs are victims, we are terrorists, you are oppressors helping us terrorists, NATO is the third Reich, Our presidents are like Hitler, etc).

Albania is a NATO member. The simplest solution to counter the negative attitudes before it spills into another drama would be for Dardania and Albania to unite. United we would have a chance against such prejudice and attitudes from Serbs and Russians, and all those, but with only 2 million people and very limited resources the situation is bleak. As it is we are highly reliant on you, and this may be costing you, and who knows what tomorrow would demand of you, for your interests instead of being here. This while united we could be of great help with you as a NATO member on our future endeavors together. Possibly liberating other countries like you did here.

The thing is also that those 101 countries recognized and blessed Dardania as an independent country (not Albania). I think there is this feeling that there may be great disappointment from our supporters, they may think that we cheated on them by joining with Albania now. Secondly there is this conspiracy that if we join Albania, Vojvodina would want to join Hungary, that Hungarians in Slovakia would want to join Hungary, that Transilvania in Romania would want to join Hungary, Deutchland would want to take back its lost parts after WW2, and... you get the picture. We wanting to join would create a domino effect where all other countries would would to join and basically change the EU maps as they are.

So in one hand there is a simple solution to the critical situation in Dardania by uniting with Albania. On the other hand there is this fear of disappointment (we made Dardania together after all) and conspiracy theories linked to this solution.

But as it is it cannot stand indefinitely neither. So how about it my Politically Primed Peers (3P's for short). What are the solutions? Should we unite and break another wall, I mean, another border, for the convenience of a EU with less administrative borders now? Or should this be done later at some point for some reason?
 

Captain Adverse

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The country that I call "Dardania" is in fact this: ...Kosovo...

....But, technically Dardania and Albania are the same people divided by force from Serbs during 1878 while the Ottoman Empire was retreating We have endured several...assimilation attempts from Serbs since then during: 1912, 1945, and the one you saw in 1999.

...I think there is this feeling that there may be great disappointment from our supporters, they may think that we cheated on them by joining with Albania now. Secondly there is this conspiracy that if we join Albania, Vojvodina would want to join Hungary, that Hungarians in Slovakia would want to join Hungary, that Transilvania in Romania would want to join Hungary, Deutchland would want to take back its lost parts after WW2, and... you get the picture. We wanting to join would create a domino effect where all other countries would would to join and basically change the EU maps as they are.

...What are the solutions? Should we unite and break another wall, I mean, another border, for the convenience of a EU with less administrative borders now? Or should this be done later at some point for some reason?

Well first, stop confusing us by using the name "Dardania!" LOL JK ;) I spent a while trying to find a current map of a territory that hasn't existed since the Pre-Roman times. :)

Seriously though, the first question is what ethnic groups besides Albanians reside in Kosovo and in what numbers? If ethnic Serbs dominate why shouldn't it be a part of Serbia? If some other ethnicity is dominant, why wouldn't it be part of that country?

However, if ethnic Albanians dominate the entire territory and a plebiscite were held in which a 2/3 majority of ALL citizens voted for unification, no one in the USA would object. It is also unlikely that any other nation that recognized Kosovo would object either.

As for a "domino effect?" As long as a majority of citizens in each territory elected to do that, why should it matter? Ignore the Germans, they have no territorial issues beyond allowing any areas predominantly German to re-unite with the Fatherland as was the case with East Germany. The Fascists aren't in charge there anymore.

So, if you think your people can organize a plebiscite while the U.N. forces are still there to make sure it's peaceful; that includes every voting citizen, and achieves the required majority? Then go for it. :thumbs:
 
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Artevelde

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It was a mistake by the US and EU to support the secession of Kosovo from Serbia. But that is done now. Obviously it is not a viable state. If it were to integrate with Albania, however, this would destabilize Albania, as well as FYROM. And obviously, in such a scenario the Serbian areas of Kosovo should reunite with Serbia.
 

Captain Adverse

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Really? And what's YOUR stake in this issue skippy? The Kosovar broke away from Serbia, and the only thing stopping Serbian aggression and civil war is a U.N. peacekeeping force.

It was a mistake by the US and EU to support the secession of Kosovo from Serbia. But that is done now. Obviously it is not a viable state. If it were to integrate with Albania, however, this would destabilize Albania, as well as FYROM. And obviously, in such a scenario the Serbian areas of Kosovo should reunite with Serbia.

Same question goes for you. Are you a resident of the territory? What would be wrong with a plebiscite, or a series of regional plebiscites to ensure ethnic majorities can live in a unified nation? As for destabilizing Albania? How would adding more ethnic Albanians and their resident territories destabilize Albania? I would think it would add resources, not detract them.

I am all for nations and peoples within nations determining their own destinies without outside interference. That's why I oppose U.S. and Russian intervention in Syria. Whatever system arises within a nation is fine by me as long as the people of that nation "worked it out" amongst themselves.
 

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Really? And what's YOUR stake in this issue skippy? The Kosovar broke away from Serbia, and the only thing stopping Serbian aggression and civil war is a U.N. peacekeeping force.

Exactly and now they want to join Albania? talk about adding fuel to the fire. On top of that, Albania is a nation of organised crime, and we suddenly want to expand its borders even more? Sorry but I am not one who likes adding more problems to the table. The so called nation of Dardani has not existed for 2000 years.. come on.. And Dardani was more than just Albania and Kosovo.. which causes problems, when they want back parts of Greece, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and so on..

What is next.. establishing the ancient kingdom of Tartessos on the coast near of Cadiz, Spain?
 

Captain Adverse

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Exactly and now they want to join Albania? talk about adding fuel to the fire. On top of that, Albania is a nation of organised crime, and we suddenly want to expand its borders even more? Sorry but I am not one who likes adding more problems to the table. The so called nation of Dardani has not existed for 2000 years.. come on.. And Dardani was more than just Albania and Kosovo.. which causes problems, when they want back parts of Greece, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and so on..

What is next.. establishing the ancient kingdom of Tartessos on the coast near of Cadiz, Spain?

The question was about unification with Albania, not remaining an independent state. So in that respect your reference to ancient Dardani (or Tartessos) is irrelelvent. I notice the Basque haven't given up on their ideas about independence yet either, eh? (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/09/25/basque-nationalism-julen-zabalo/)

So let's see, you argue that Albania is a nation of criminals, so why add to the population? Better to let ethnic albanians suffer ethnic cleansing and reduce the surplus population of "criminals" then? Stereotyping is not a valid argument, since who knows? Maybe adding population from Kosovar will add more educated people to the mix and help reduce crime in Albania. Maybe not, but at least all the bad eggs would be in one basket and you E.U. states can use Interpol to fix the problem.

BTW, see what belief in "domino effect" politics did to my country in regards to Vietnam? I say let the people decide where they want to be and leave it at that.
 
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PeteEU

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The question was about unification with Albania, not remaining an independent state. So in that respect your reference to ancient Dardani (or Tartessos) is irrelelvent.

It is highly relevant. Not only does the OP use the ancient word for the area, but the combination of Albania and Kosvo would put most of Dardani together again and I have my serious doubts that the nationalists would be happy with that.

And do you know what Tartessos is?

I notice the Basque haven't given up on their ideas about independence yet either, eh? (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2012/09/25/basque-nationalism-julen-zabalo/)

Nope they have not, and still is stupid. Small nations dont fare well on the global stage... coming from a small nation myself... I should know.

So let's see, you argue that Albania is a nation of criminals, so why add to the population? Better to let ethnic albanians suffer ethnic cleansing and reduce the surplus population of "criminals" then? Stereotyping is not a valid argument, since who knows? Maybe adding population from Kosovar will add more educated people to the mix and help reduce crime in Albania. Maybe not, but at least all the bad eggs would be in one basket and you E.U. states can use Interpol to fix the problem.

First off..Interpol has nothing to do with the EU.

Secondly, Albania has a massive problem with organized crime and it has spread beyond its borders. I read somewhere that most of Southern Europes stolen cars end up in Albania. It is the main reason that the EU has put off serious negotiations for membership. It is not a trivial matter, and considering that Kosovo sits between Albania and Serbia ... another highly problematic country with organised crime issues.. then frankly why add to the problem?

BTW, see what belief in "domino effect" politics did to my country in regards to Vietnam? I say let the people decide where they want to be and leave it at that.

I agree, but not as long as it starts to break up countries for no other reason that some non existent nationalist pride which is in reality a power grab by a few people.

Like it or not, the people living in the area have very little to do with the so called nation of Dardani.
 

Captain Adverse

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It is highly relevant. Not only does the OP use the ancient word for the area, but the combination of Albania and Kosvo would put most of Dardani together again and I have my serious doubts that the nationalists would be happy with that. And do you know what Tartessos is?

Nope, it remains irrelevant because as of right now Kosovo remains separate from Serbia, and has been recognized as independent by MY country. Furthermore, all of the current Balkan states broke away from Yugoslavia, and none have any particular right to claim other segments as their own since their very existence of each is based on such breakaway grounds.

Nothing wrong with setting up a plebiscite and letting the residents decide if they'd like to join Albania, rejoin Serbia, or even remain independent. It's still no business of yours, unless you intend to live there? (And yes, I am aware of "Tartessos," which does not matter because it is also irrelevant to the OP's issue.)


Nope they have not, and still is stupid. Small nations dont fare well on the global stage... coming from a small nation myself... I should know.

Aren't you a resident of Spain? You consider Spain a "small country?" Relative to what, China? The USA? Russia? There are a lot of small countries doing quite well thank you very much; your personal opinion notwithstanding.

Secondly, Albania has a massive problem with organized crime and it has spread beyond its borders. I read somewhere that most of Southern Europes stolen cars end up in Albania. It is the main reason that the EU has put off serious negotiations for membership. It is not a trivial matter, and considering that Kosovo sits between Albania and Serbia ... another highly problematic country with organised crime issues.. then frankly why add to the problem?

My response? So what! The USA has a "massive problem with crime." Does that mean if one of the territories we happen to control votes to join us as a State we should automatically reject them? Again, this nonsense is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether or not a people sharing the same ethinic ties should or should not have the right to vote on reuniting with their country of origin. If you have problems with organized crime in your country, and some happen to be Albanian mobs, fix the problem IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY! If you think the national government of Albania actively supports these activities, declare war and kick some ass. Otherwise, who cares?

I reiterate, democratic processes fairly conducted have my full support in settling this question.
 

DDD

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Well first, stop confusing us by using the name "Dardania!" LOL JK ;) I spent a while trying to find a current map of a territory that hasn't existed since the Pre-Roman times. :)

Well ah, you know me, I made some research. It all started with a simple question "What the heck does Kosovo mean in Albanian?" It turned out it does not. Either the Serbs named us as such or it happened sometime while they were retreating from our lands. This was the repeated pattern until the time when we named these lands with our name. It was then Dardania, meaning still today "Pearland" in ancient Albanian, since we love and farmed pearls a lot around here then.

Seriously though, the first question is what ethnic groups besides Albanians reside in Kosovo and in what numbers? If ethnic Serbs dominate why shouldn't it be a part of Serbia? If some other ethnicity is dominant, why wouldn't it be part of that country?

However, if ethnic Albanians dominate the entire territory and a plebiscite were held in which a 2/3 majority of ALL citizens voted for unification, no one in the USA would object. It is also unlikely that any other nation that recognized Kosovo would object either.

Despite severe hardships, destructive plans, incredible superpower occupations, throughout time, and throughout 2000 years we were always here a majority. Your statement that USA and other EU nations would not object is very comforting. Thanks :)

As for a "domino effect?" As long as a majority of citizens in each territory elected to do that, why should it matter? Ignore the Germans, they have no territorial issues beyond allowing any areas predominantly German to re-unite with the Fatherland as was the case with East Germany. The Fascists aren't in charge there anymore.

We are in no position to care whether Deutchland wants to have its territories back to fatherland. The situation though may be reversed. Deutchland, Britain, and other European supporters to our cause, and especially the few EU non supporters, may raise false alarms over this issue. They would find silliest of reasons such as: crime, nationalism, etc, to be against unification. This even though it is costly for NATO troops to be here as mentioned.

So, if you think your people can organize a plebiscite while the U.N. forces are still there to make sure it's peaceful; that includes every voting citizen, and achieves the required majority? Then go for it. :thumbs:

Plebiscite, got it, thanks :peace
 

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It was a mistake by the US and EU to support the secession of Kosovo from Serbia. But that is done now. Obviously it is not a viable state. If it were to integrate with Albania, however, this would destabilize Albania, as well as FYROM. And obviously, in such a scenario the Serbian areas of Kosovo should reunite with Serbia.

Dardania is a viable state. We do manage to get by enough not to sink our boat. But when surrounded with serious foes, with relentless propaganda campaigns, that are supported from Russia, then with these limited resources we need to merge. You may also need to give NATO troops some break by seeing us joining with the newest NATO member Albania. It would be natural for Albania as a NATO member to defend us by having us in NATO as Albanians. While you would be away taking care of other crisis perhaps.

Albania, if this proposal is offered, would be pleased. We are the same people, why do you think destabilization would be the issue? What has FYROM anything to do with this?

As for minorities that live in Dardania they are very well taken care of. For one they have more rights than the majority. They have nothing to worry about. We shall be mirror when the situation was reversed just before 1999. We know first hand what happens when oppressed.
 

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Exactly and now they want to join Albania? talk about adding fuel to the fire. On top of that, Albania is a nation of organised crime, and we suddenly want to expand its borders even more? Sorry but I am not one who likes adding more problems to the table.

Fuel to the fire? Adding more problems? Increased crimes? Explain please?

The so called nation of Dardani has not existed for 2000 years.. come on.. And Dardani was more than just Albania and Kosovo.. which causes problems, when they want back parts of Greece, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and so on..

I would say that it always existed. But was named differently depending on who occupied the area for 2000 years.

As for wanting more than this unification I think it is off the table. Too little to gain over too much resistance. But Dardania with current borders uniting with Albania is the simplest solution to counter the media build up, as well as the military ones.

Serbia is building a military camp in a nearby area with Dardania. Did you know that? It is like they are waiting for NATO troops to go away from here.

What is next.. establishing the ancient kingdom of Tartessos on the coast near of Cadiz, Spain?

Nice one :) .

But I do not see Tartessians having their own borders as we do. They are not nearing the 129'th recognition of their independence for UN neither.
 

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I agree, but not as long as it starts to break up countries for no other reason that some non existent nationalist pride which is in reality a power grab by a few people.

Like it or not, the people living in the area have very little to do with the so called nation of Dardani.

Dardanians are our ancestors. I cannot comprehend where you come from when viewed from this position?
 

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Shouldn't you consider independence in Kosovo before you think about unification with Albania?
 

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sounds very messy in a region that needs stability. Would be interested to hear Paul's (gunner) opinion on this due to this service during the Yugoslav Wars
 

DDD

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Shouldn't you consider independence in Kosovo before you think about unification with Albania?

That is a good point.

This may be one reason why unification should be delayed for a while. It was the second question after all.

Thanks.
 

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sounds very messy in a region that needs stability. Would be interested to hear Paul's (gunner) opinion on this due to this service during the Yugoslav Wars

Okay. Could you invite him or so?
 

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If Kosovo people are predominantly ethnic Albanians, why shouldn't they have a plebiscite about joining Albania?

Stability can mean everything and nothing ... maybe it's more stable to have people who feel they belong together united under one national umbrella, rather than splitting them into many different independent states. Especially since Kosovo is really tiny.

Maybe there should be a separate referendum considered for the Kosovo regions directly bordering to Serbia, which have a predominantly Serbian population. Let them join Serbia, and the major predominantly Albanian part join Albania. What's the problem? Sounds better than forcing both groups into an uneven cooperation in an unviable tiny independent state. Bosnia doesn't seem to work so well either, with the two major population groups (Serbians on one side, the Croatian-Bosnian confederation on the other) blocking each other.
 

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I'd be concerned that unifying with Albania would spark many of the same conflicts of interest that lead to the 1999 war.
 

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If Kosovo people are predominantly ethnic Albanians, why shouldn't they have a plebiscite about joining Albania?

Stability can mean everything and nothing ... maybe it's more stable to have people who feel they belong together united under one national umbrella, rather than splitting them into many different independent states. Especially since Kosovo is really tiny.

Maybe there should be a separate referendum considered for the Kosovo regions directly bordering to Serbia, which have a predominantly Serbian population. Let them join Serbia, and the major predominantly Albanian part join Albania. What's the problem? Sounds better than forcing both groups into an uneven cooperation in an unviable tiny independent state. Bosnia doesn't seem to work so well either, with the two major population groups (Serbians on one side, the Croatian-Bosnian confederation on the other) blocking each other.

I'm not per definition adverse to this idea, but it will be messy and will obviously spell the end of Bosnia and FYROM as countries and will destabilize the region. But I do support the right to self-determination of peoples, so if they want to do this and redraw borders it is up to them. Some of the smaller minority groups will obviously be the losers in this, so be it. But we must be clear that if they go this route we will NOT intervene if this leads to renewed war and bloodshed.
 

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Dardania is a viable state. We do manage to get by enough not to sink our boat. But when surrounded with serious foes, with relentless propaganda campaigns, that are supported from Russia, then with these limited resources we need to merge. You may also need to give NATO troops some break by seeing us joining with the newest NATO member Albania. It would be natural for Albania as a NATO member to defend us by having us in NATO as Albanians. While you would be away taking care of other crisis perhaps.

Albania, if this proposal is offered, would be pleased. We are the same people, why do you think destabilization would be the issue? What has FYROM anything to do with this?

As for minorities that live in Dardania they are very well taken care of. For one they have more rights than the majority. They have nothing to worry about. We shall be mirror when the situation was reversed just before 1999. We know first hand what happens when oppressed.

Kosovo is not a viable state and NATO should pull out and leave it be.
 

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Fuel to the fire? Adding more problems? Increased crimes? Explain please?

Serbia would never allow a unification. Neither would Montenegro, out of fear of claims by nationalists on its land. Macedonia would also be against it, out of the same fear. Creating a new nation based on an ancient name screams of ultra nationalism and that never ends good.

Also who should pay for all this? Albania is the poorest nation in Europe, and Kosovo gets most of its funding from the EU. All this would do was to create a larger poor nation, dependent on outside help to stay alive.

Not to mention that if it did happen, then the conflict that would follow (eventually) would bring war right to the doorstep of the EU and NATO, which everyone wants to avoid.

I would say that it always existed. But was named differently depending on who occupied the area for 2000 years.

No it has not. It has not existed for 2000 years.

As for wanting more than this unification I think it is off the table. Too little to gain over too much resistance. But Dardania with current borders uniting with Albania is the simplest solution to counter the media build up, as well as the military ones.

But that is the point.. Dardania is not the current borders of Albania and Kosvo.. it is also bits of other nations, and will nationalists give up claim on these parts? I doubt it...

Serbia is building a military camp in a nearby area with Dardania. Did you know that? It is like they are waiting for NATO troops to go away from here.

And?

But I do not see Tartessians having their own borders as we do.

Half of Andalusia and parts of the Algarve...

They are not nearing the 129'th recognition of their independence for UN neither.

That is recognition of Kosovo.. not some country from 2000 years ago.
 

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Kosovo is not a viable state and NATO should pull out and leave it be.

I disagree that it is not viable. We have been developing the area since 1999. Got sources to prove otherwise?
 

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Serbia would never allow a unification.

We are aware of that of course. But frankly we no longer give a **** whether they "allow" it or not. We have not been paying particular attention to what they want for quite a while, if you have not notice? Let them mind their own business.

Neither would Montenegro, out of fear of claims by nationalists on its land. Macedonia would also be against it, out of the same fear. Creating a new nation based on an ancient name screams of ultra nationalism and that never ends good.

You have it all wrong. If we unite it would just be Albania. If we do not I think we may change the name of our country to something more to our taste. Since every occupier dubbed us each way they wanted to ever since the Dardanian times, then we might as well call ourselves Dardania also. It has a lot more meaning to us than the present name.

But if we unite we would just be northern Albania or something.

Also who should pay for all this? Albania is the poorest nation in Europe, and Kosovo gets most of its funding from the EU. All this would do was to create a larger poor nation, dependent on outside help to stay alive.

Well the market would increase. The industries here would have a greater market to compete and target a greater amount of consumers. The language would not be a problem. Plus we would have access to the sea and the potential is high for international shipping and trade with that. So we would pay ourselves and develop to higher standards slowly.

Not to mention that if it did happen, then the conflict that would follow (eventually) would bring war right to the doorstep of the EU and NATO, which everyone wants to avoid.

The unification should be done so as to avoid that eventual conflict to begin with. Our foes with their relentless RT propaganda may think of Dardania as a piece of cake. But they may think twice about going the way they did in 1878, 1912, and 1945 with a NATO ally.

No it has not. It has not existed for 2000 years.

Hahahah. Yes it has :) . And what that it did?

But that is the point.. Dardania is not the current borders of Albania and Kosvo.. it is also bits of other nations, and will nationalists give up claim on these parts? I doubt it...

They would for the whole EU is made of these "parts" in other countries borders. Once we get independent though, and before we get to EU, considering the "eventual" conflict that all are prepared and expect that it will come, we might as well merge with the allies.


Cannot you put all the facts together? A huge big camp is nearby, RT is boiling up nationalism and hate about us, all that is keeping them is NATO. Say tomorrow's pressing demands push NATO out of here, or leave NATO up to a "manageble" level, cannot you see what would happen? I thought you spoke of the eventual conflict a paragraph above?

On the other hand merging with Albania would ensure security for Albania is a NATO member. It would make it less likely that Serbs would engage and attack a NATO member while negotiating with EU about being a member and the progress that may be played from there on.

I am assuming here. Considering their hard headed relentless media campaigns (I am sure you are familiar with RT?), their readiness to engage militarily, and a history of occupation of our lands since 1878, they might do nevertheless. At least this way we would have resources to engage perhaps in equal terms if they do. Just in case you know ;)

Half of Andalusia and parts of the Algarve...

Interesting fact. Hope they get lucky too, what can I say!

That is recognition of Kosovo.. not some country from 2000 years ago.
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You are correct. However, I am here giving you all a heads up. The name that I have never once even typed in DP that currently my country remains dubbed with still, does not represent us. Logically it has no meaning in Albanian.

I think we will change it. It shall be Dardania once more, at least briefly, before we merge with Albania. What we call these lands while within Albania shall of course be a matter worthy of discussion amongst us Albanians and our minorities. What we choose to call our lands prior to merging with Albania is a matter worthy of discussion amongst us Albanians in Dardania and our minorities.

But I appreciate your input. You should pay us a visit. I could tour you around and explain it to you how I have came to the conclusion that we are Dardanians. I assure you I am not making this up. With some historical readings and facts you would see it for yourself even.
 

Artevelde

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I disagree that it is not viable. We have been developing the area since 1999. Got sources to prove otherwise?

Would this state ever have come into being or survived 5 minutes without massive outside intervention?
 
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