Has Putin demonstrated western civ's form of capitalism conflicts with democratic values, human rights?

[post]

The Single-Legged Stool of the Horseshoe Left's Apology for Putin - emptywheel

Key mouthpieces of the purportedly anti-imperialist Putin-apologizing horseshoe left has embraced Putin's false claim that this attack is only about NATO and not also about democracy.

www.emptywheel.net

March 2, 2022

"...And the 2014 ouster of Viktor Yanukovych (which more complicit members of the horseshoe left claim was simply a coup led by Nazis) set off a concerted plan that incorporated support for Brexit, an attack on US elections in 2016, all conducted in parallel with relentless targeting of Ukraine....This invasion is the continuation of not just the annexation of Crimea and persistent war in Ukraine’s East, but also the hybrid attacks on Ukraine’s power grid and, via NotPetya, on anyone paying taxes in Ukraine and therefore any international business doing business with it. Russia’s efforts to cultivate Tories in the UK, populists in the EU, and the Trumpist right, including a good deal of disinformation capitalizing on Trump’s narcissism, was always closely connected to Russia’s closer goals in Ukraine (and, indeed, involved the participation of some of Trump’s closest allies, starting with Paul Manafort and Rudy Giuliani. in Ukraine).
...Ukraine, with Europe, needs to survive this attack, find a way to rebut the invasion and build a path forward.

But whatever else this moment has done, it has made it clear how easy it was for Russia to pervert democracy in the places proudly claiming to practice it with the least little bit of Oligarch cash. Having ripped off the bandaid of Russian influence, Europe (at least) has the opportunity to formalize protections against purchased influence. Such lessons, of course, extend beyond Russia to America’s own failed imperial catastrophes, most notably in Afghanistan, where US-backed corruption made it easy for the Taliban to regain credibility by comparison. US hegemony is on the wane because of Green Zone thinking about capitalism, which fostered the kind of corruption that made Putin powerful.

Such lessons extend, as well, to America’s own fragile democracy, subjugated in recent years to endless supplies of corporate cash, which led in 2016 to the election of a man who aspired to impose a kleptocracy every bit as corrupt as Putin’s. Vladimir Putin has gotten a large swath of anti-imperialist American leftists to parrot a claim that he invaded Ukraine because of NATO, and only because of NATO. Not only has that made them willful apologists for the kind of imperialism they claim to abhor, even while ignoring the direct assault on democracy and the greater aspirations to human rights adopted by Europe. But it has led them to ignore an obvious critique of US and Russian power that would be a necessary component of building a new, more resilient order if we survive this war."

 

[lemmiwinx]

Putin wanted Crimea Putin got Crimea. Nobody cared. Now Putin wants Ukraine. People are caring. A bit late but a good thing.

 

[EdwinWillers]

Maximization of return on stock holder equity, vs societal goals, values, courts, EPA, labor rights​

The Single Legged Stool of the Horseshoe Lefts Apology for Putin

Has Putin demonstrated western civ's form of capitalism conflicts with democratic values, human rights?​

Sigh... no.

 

[aociswundumho]

To be sure, Putin is not unhappy with the results of that, and so is not complaining about the imposition of a form of capitalism that allowed Oligarchs to loot the state, and through them, Putin to accumulate power.

People stealing from state owned enterprises is not "a form of capitalism". Suppose a BLM mob loots a police station. Does that sound like a "form of capitalism"?

Yes, they did the same thing for Covid. That's what progressives do.

But whatever else this moment has done, it has made it clear how easy it was for Russia to pervert democracy in the places proudly claiming to practice it with the least little bit of Oligarch cash.

All democracies are easy to corrupt, that's yet another reason why democracy sucks as an institution.

Such lessons extend, as well, to America’s own fragile democracy, subjugated in recent years to endless supplies of corporate cash, which led in 2016 to the election of a man who aspired to impose a kleptocracy every bit as corrupt as Putin’s.

Uh, Trump's net worth went down during his presidency.

 

[Gatsby]

I don't see how capitalism conflicts with human rights, in general or in this specific case. Capitalism is what gives Western nations the economic clout to punish Russia for its actions. If there is any hope for positive change in Russia, it will be because the sudden *lack* of capitalism is an absolutely intolerable state of affairs for the people who have the power to shove Putin out a window.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Putin has demonstrated that Projecting weakness doesn’t deter tyrants that only respect power. Also, doing everything to damage our fossil fuel industry and depending on Russia for oil, is funding the brutal slaughter of innocents.

 

[post]

Putin has demonstrated that Projecting weakness doesn’t deter tyrants that only respect power. Also, doing everything to damage our fossil fuel industry and depending on Russia for oil, is funding the brutal slaughter of innocents.

You voted for madness and presume to lecture those who did the opposite?

https://www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/countries_long/Iran/pdf/iran_exe.pdf

Country Analysis Executive Summary: Iran - EIA​

We estimate Iran's crude oil and condensate exports fell from more than 2.5 million b/d in 2017, the year before the United States re-imposed sanctions, to an average of less than 0.4 million b/d in 2020 (Figure 4). Jul 16, 2021

U.S. clean energy investment hits new record despite Trump administration views

Clean energy investment in the United States surged to a fresh record of $55.5 billion last year, despite the government's attempts to roll back supportive policies, a report showed on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

COMMODITIES
JANUARY 16, 2020 UPDATED 2 YEARS AGO

U.S. clean energy investment hits new record despite Trump administration views​

By Nina Chestney

LONDON (Reuters) - Clean energy investment in the United States surged to a fresh record of $55.5 billion last year, despite the government’s attempts to roll back supportive policies, a report showed on Thursday....
....
Indeed, President Donald Trump’s withdrawal of federal support for Obama-era climate goals indirectly helped the industry here by inspiring a backlash among U.S. cities, states and corporations, which have grown more ambitious about installing cleaner forms of energy.

Although China is still the biggest investor in renewables, the amount declined by 8% to $83.4 billion last year.

In the second half of the year there was a surge in offshore wind financing which took investment in that sector to $29.9 billion, a new record and 19% higher than a year earlier, the report said...."

It is not, "our fossil fuel industry," its output is sold to the highest bidder and its actual owners bought a G.O.P., permanent tax cut capped at 22 percent, vs. the pre 2017 top rate of 35 percent.

GOP wants to end Russian oil imports to US, boost production

Republican elected officials across the U.S. are criticizing President Joe Biden over his energy policies and want to ramp up domestic production as a way to help wean the nation and its allies off oil from Russia

abcnews.go.com

Republican elected officials across the U.S. are criticizing President Joe Biden over his energy policies and want to ramp up domestic production as a way to help wean the nation and its allies off oil from Russia
By SEAN MURPHY and CATHY BUSSEWITZ Associated Press
March 2, 2022,
"...Natural gas production grew 2% in 2021, Biden’s first year in office, compared to the previous year, when Republican Donald Trump was in office. Exports of liquefied natural gas grew 42% in the first six months of 2021, ...
...
and many have not returned to their pre-pandemic drilling levels despite higher demand. That's partly because investors have been pressuring public companies to focus more on transitioning to renewable or cleaner energy sources. Companies that want to increase drilling for oil and gas are having a hard time finding rigs, trucks and workers..."

The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks

The top 1% gained over $6.5 trillion in corporate equities and mutual fund wealth during the pandemic, according to the latest data from the Federal Reserve.

www.cnbc.com

October 18, 2021

• "The wealthiest 10% of American households now own 89% of all U.S. stocks, a record high that highlights the stock market’s role in increasing wealth inequality.
• The top 1% gained over $6.5 trillion in corporate equities and mutual fund wealth during the pandemic, according to the latest data from the Federal Reserve.
• The bottom 90% of Americans held about 11% of stocks, .."

GM Will Sell Only Zero-Emission Vehicles by 2035 - The New ...​

https://www.nytimes.com › 2021/01/28 › business › gm-z...
Oct 1, 2021 — ..it would phase out petroleum-powered cars and trucks and sell only vehicles that have zero tailpipe ...

Ford splits EV and combustion units in major restructuring​

https://techcrunch.com › 2022/03/02 › ford-splits-ev-an...
15 hours ago — Ford Blue will oversee existing and future ICE vehicles like the ... 50% of its global sales by 2030, up from 40% under previous guidance.

The path to recovery for US oil production

Operators are likely to pursue a three-phase recovery that tracks the cost curve of activating production

www.mckinsey.com

November 23, 2020

 

[post]

People stealing from state owned enterprises is not "a form of capitalism". Suppose a BLM mob loots a police station. Does that sound like a "form of capitalism"?

View attachment 67377942

Yes, they did the same thing for Covid. That's what progressives do.



All democracies are easy to corrupt, that's yet another reason why democracy sucks as an institution.



Uh, Trump's net worth went down during his presidency.

null

WASHINGTON (AP) — Before signing up with Donald Trump, former campaign manager Paul Manafort secretly worked for a Russian billionaire with a plan to "greatly benefit the Putin Government," The Associated Press has learned...

apnews.com

WASHINGTON (AP) — "Before signing up with Donald Trump, former campaign manager Paul Manafort secretly worked for a Russian billionaire with a plan to “greatly benefit the Putin Government,” The Associated Press has learned. The White House attempted to brush the report aside Wednesday, but it quickly raised fresh alarms in Congress about Russian links to Trump associates.

Manafort proposed in a confidential strategy plan as early as June 2005 that he would influence politics, business dealings and news coverage inside the United States, Europe and former Soviet republics to benefit President Vladimir Putin’s government, even as U.S.-Russia relations under Republican President George W. Bush grew worse....
....Early in the 2016 presidential campaign, Deripaska’s representatives openly accused Manafort of fraud and pledged to recover the money from him. After Trump earned the nomination, Deripaska’s representatives said they would no longer discuss the case."

 

[bomberfox]

I sometimes think marx might have been somewhat right about bourgeois democracy. Capitalism is not inherently synonymous with democracy and freedom. It can work pretty well hand in hand with both but not always.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Capitalism is a very good system. However, if history has taught us anything, it must be tempered. Otherwise it will be unfettered to the detriment of society as a whole. The key is to administer a fluid system that allows capitalism to thrive while not exploiting the laborers or the consumers that drive capitalism.

Historically, the worst example of unfettered capitalism was the days of early mining in America. The mines were in remote desolate places and the mine owners needed to offer incentives to get workers to move out there. So, they offered them good wages plus housing plus other benefits. This worked for a while, but there were problems.

For example, since they were in the wilderness, there were no banks. Therefore the company would pay the workers in something called company scrip. It worked like money, and the workers could trade their company scrip for actual U.S. dollars if they wanted. Of course, the company would determine the exchange rate and it always favored the dollar unless one wished to trade dollars for scrip, in which case the dollar was always weaker against the scrip.

Nobody needed the cash anyway, because there was nowhere to spend it in the wilderness except at the company store. The store carried everything a hard working miner would need to survive for himself and his family. Except that it seemed that the costs of goods always just slightly outweighed the workers' incomes. Not to worry, the company store was always ready and willing to extend credit to those hard workers who needed a little help to make ends meet. Never mind that the mine company was who decided how much the workers were paid and how much the store goods cost. Consequently, most workers found themselves in debt to the company after a short time. That debt needed to be repaid before the worker left the job. Of course, that was never going to happen as the system was rigged against the workers.

Eventually, this arrangement resulted in worker dissatisfaction and labor unrest. The workers tried to organize labor unions, which resulted in the company dismissing the union organizers and terrorizing the others into submission. It wasn't until the federal government stepped in to protect the workers and allowing them collective bargaining rights that this system was reformed to favor the workers as well as the mine owners.

We've come a long way from the days of the company store, and labor unions have demonstrated their value in promoting the rights and protections of the working classes. In fact, some argue that labor unions negotiating with capitalists contributed greatly to the rise of the middle class in America.

 

[ataraxia]

Uh, Trump's net worth went down during his presidency.

As someone suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, Trump's overriding ambition is to always be adored and on everyone's lips. All his money was really just a means of getting to that- but if there are other things like political power that help him get it, then money becomes only a secondary consideration. He really could care less about the welfare of the nation. That's so far down his list of priorities it doesn't even matter. His reckless downplaying of Covid and propogation of misinformation on it, and killing off so many people in the process, just because he thought it was going to make him look bad, was a perfect example.

Putin is the same: he was worrying that he was becoming increasingly irrelevant. He is willing to drag his country and everyone else through mud and blood to make sure that doesn't happen.

Narcissism sucks.

 

[aociswundumho]

As someone suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, Trump's overriding ambition is to always be adored and on everyone's lips. All his money was really just a means of getting to that- but if there are other things like political power that help him get it, then money becomes only a secondary consideration. He really could care less about the welfare of the nation. That's so far down his list of priorities it doesn't even matter. His reckless downplaying of Covid and propogation of misinformation on it, and killing off so many people in the process, just because he thought it was going to make him look bad, was a perfect example

Great, so you agree that the kleptocracy claim made by the idiot leftist in the linked blog post was false.

Narcissism sucks.

Virtually every politician is a narcissist.

 

[ataraxia]

Virtually every politician is a narcissist.

Meh, maybe. But it’s on a spectrum- some much more than others. Trump and Putin are good examples of the extreme end of the spectrum.

 

[ataraxia]

Great, so you agree that the kleptocracy claim made by the idiot leftist in the linked blog post was false.



Virtually every politician is a narcissist.

If you leave everyone alone and free, that almost always means those in positions of power and privilege will exploit and hurt those in positions of weakness and vulnerability- IOW, you will have freedom, but the freedom of the jungle.

I don’t know about you, but that does not sound like an ideal we should be striving for.

 

[aociswundumho]

If you leave everyone alone and free, that almost always means those in positions of power and privilege will exploit and hurt those in positions of weakness and vulnerability-

That's what we have now.

 

[reinaert]

Some caveats: I'm not a capitalist, first because I don't own any of the privatized means of production, and second, because it's not an identity. It's just a description. I have to sell my labor, just like most everyone else. I am technically, classically proletarian, because I have skilled labor to sell, live in a city, and I am aware of my condition. But, I am not anti-capitalist anymore than I am anti-snowstorms or mosquitoes. Capitalist relations are dominant, for now. Capitalism emerged from specific conditions within the Lowlands luxury trade, proved better for burghers than royal mercantilism, and largely went hand-in-hand with republicanism, which is the political vehicle best suited to bourgeois economies. That is, until wealth concentrates enough - usually this has been through financialization and the narrowing of a republic's taxation powers - to establish a new oligarchy.

Democracy historically has been an emergent response: it arises in emergency conditions. Think Paris Commune, Athenian naval assemblies, early Soviets, or even Xenophon needing support among the Ten Thousand. Specific conditions have been necessary: enough of the aristos and oligarchs have died of stasis, plague or war; the people have in their neighborhoods (demos) have had to organize to survive, and religious doxology has given way to inquiry, heresy and doubt. Most important of all, foreign/hostile powers have come close to threatening a way of life.

Think of democracy not as a system, but as an immune response. Necessary under duress, but unlikely to persist during long periods of stability.

Which means, I think, that the OP isn't maybe asking the right question. Of course, I could be wrong. This is always a valid option.

 

[ataraxia]

That's what we have now.

Nah. That’s like pointing to occasional traffic accidents as an argument to get rid of all traffic laws.

 

[Juin]

Putin wanted Crimea Putin got Crimea. Nobody cared. Now Putin wants Ukraine. People are caring. A bit late but a good thing.

Nato wanted the Naval Base at Sevastopol, Crimea; Putin beat Nato to it. Nato also wants Ukraine and Georgia, the jury is still out on that.

 

[ataraxia]

Nato wanted the Naval Base at Sevastopol, Crimea; Putin beat Nato to it. Nato also wants Ukraine and Georgia, the jury is still out on that.

So why aren’t we letting those countries be their own jury?

 

[aociswundumho]

Nah. That’s like pointing to occasional traffic accidents as an argument to get rid of all traffic laws.

1. It's not "occasional", it's pervasive.

2. Traffic laws do not allow "those in positions of power and privilege" to "exploit and hurt those in positions of weakness and vulnerability".

 

[Juin]

So why aren’t we letting those countries be their own jury?

Lions never play fair Ukraine is a prey over which two lions are fighting.

 

[ataraxia]

1. It's not "occasional", it's pervasive.

So are traffic accidents. There are tons of them every day. Reason to get rid of all traffic lights and let freedom ring?

2. Traffic laws do not allow "those in positions of power and privilege" to "exploit and hurt those in positions of weakness and vulnerability".

Sure they do- if you get yourself a monster truck even the worst morning rush hour traffic jam will just be a fun demolition derby, and will be of no hindrance to you. Let freedom ring- YEAH BABY!!!! (revving up the monster truck engine in an intimidating manner)

Of course, others will then be free to get monster trucks too, and then morning commute will just look like some Battle of the Monster Trucks.

Yeah, everything works out for the best when everyone is left free.

 

[ataraxia]

Lions never play fair Ukraine is a prey over which two lions are fighting.

Nah, actually it's just a bully beating up an innocent bystander.

Its OK sometimes to call out unjust and bullying behavior.

 

[Indydave]

Capitalism is a very good system. However, if history has taught us anything, it must be tempered. Otherwise it will be unfettered to the detriment of society as a whole. The key is to administer a fluid system that allows capitalism to thrive while not exploiting the laborers or the consumers that drive capitalism.

Historically, the worst example of unfettered capitalism was the days of early mining in America. The mines were in remote desolate places and the mine owners needed to offer incentives to get workers to move out there. So, they offered them good wages plus housing plus other benefits. This worked for a while, but there were problems.

For example, since they were in the wilderness, there were no banks. Therefore the company would pay the workers in something called company scrip. It worked like money, and the workers could trade their company scrip for actual U.S. dollars if they wanted. Of course, the company would determine the exchange rate and it always favored the dollar unless one wished to trade dollars for scrip, in which case the dollar was always weaker against the scrip.

Nobody needed the cash anyway, because there was nowhere to spend it in the wilderness except at the company store. The store carried everything a hard working miner would need to survive for himself and his family. Except that it seemed that the costs of goods always just slightly outweighed the workers' incomes. Not to worry, the company store was always ready and willing to extend credit to those hard workers who needed a little help to make ends meet. Never mind that the mine company was who decided how much the workers were paid and how much the store goods cost. Consequently, most workers found themselves in debt to the company after a short time. That debt needed to be repaid before the worker left the job. Of course, that was never going to happen as the system was rigged against the workers.

Eventually, this arrangement resulted in worker dissatisfaction and labor unrest. The workers tried to organize labor unions, which resulted in the company dismissing the union organizers and terrorizing the others into submission. It wasn't until the federal government stepped in to protect the workers and allowing them collective bargaining rights that this system was reformed to favor the workers as well as the mine owners.

We've come a long way from the days of the company store, and labor unions have demonstrated their value in promoting the rights and protections of the working classes. In fact, some argue that labor unions negotiating with capitalists contributed greatly to the rise of the middle class in America.

Capitalism's one great cancer is that depends on profit above all else to survive.......companies and businesses make profit primarily through controlling labor costs and operating in an environment free from any kind of control...........consumers demand low prices for goods also requiring low labor costs ......the real culprit in this cancer is all of us.......we want and we want and we want it for as little as we are forced to pay........Capitalism makes ravenous wolves out of all of us.......it sucks.....it's nasty......it's inhumane......but so is life....but al least it's free......government controlled economy is worse......for the simple reason that it stifles our freedom to be wolves

 

[ataraxia]

Capitalism's one great cancer is that depends on profit above all else to survive.......companies and businesses make profit primarily through controlling labor costs and operating in an environment free from any kind of control...........consumers demand low prices for goods also requiring low labor costs ......the real culprit in this cancer is all of us.......we want and we want and we want it for as little as we are forced to pay........Capitalism makes ravenous wolves out of all of us.......it sucks.....it's nasty......it's inhumane......but so is life....but al least it's free......government controlled economy is worse......for the simple reason that it stifles our freedom to be wolves

Too dark a picture. Like all things in life, a little balancing between clashing considerations usually does a pretty reasonable job. It’s like trying to figure out whether it’s better to spend time with your family or at work. Just because there may not be exact right answer, does not mean you can’t do better and worse jobs juggling between those considerations.

It’s a little unsatisfying because you have to compromise a little bit here and there. But it often leads to the best results. No reason for dismay!

You know that old Rolling Stones song “you can’t always get what you want. But if you try sometimes you get what you need.”