Has America lost the war?

[ptsdkid]

How silly of George Bush not to have listened to the ant-war cut-and-run specialists at an earlier time. Remember back for those few months post 9/11 that George Bush and Rudi Guliani were perceived as the ‘Great Uniters’ of America and of the spirit to protect it’s people?

Americans in general seem to lack the patience and will power to fight evil regimes worldwide.

Anti-War demonstrators helped create the turn hide, cut-and-run strategy that led America to it’s first humiliating foreign war loss in Vietnam. The victors in that war were the NVA backed up by the Chi-Coms. Because of America’s chicken ***** policy toward the Vietnam War--Chinese Communism has blossomed to where China is now the 2nd most powerful nation on earth next to America. Is it any surprise (with our cave in during the Vietnam war) that the majority of our foreign debt is with the Chi-Coms? Don’t the Chi-Coms also have port and base control to both ends of the Panama Canal? Sounds a bit de ya vu Cuban missile build up to me.

But I digress: It was never going to be a cakewalk taking the fight to terrorists on their own land. Logistic preparations alone would make for a war policy that includes a lengthy time period so as to insure military resolve and eventual victory.
So American impatience won the day again. The enemy (Islamic Fascism) utilized a brilliant game plan: Sit tight…don’t let the Bedouin bugs bite, regale over their war ally’s impressive win on November 7th, wait for the self destructive in-fighting to take center stage between the legislative and executive branches of the United States Government, and rejoice in certain victory once the House of Representatives initiate ad hoc impeachment proceedings on George Bush.

Isn’t Cindy Sheehan in jail at the moment? Kind of sad that she (being the foremost anti-war icon) won’t get to see or join her liberal teammates as they bask in the glory of yet another American war defeat.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

I don't know a whole lot about Vietnam, but I was under the impression that we lost the war because we, well, lost the war. How long did we have troops in Vietnam? 1968-1975 I know for sure, because those are the official war numbers, but Johnson sent advisors and troops to Vietnam and so did Kennedy, right? So at least 1963-1975, and probably longer. 12 years without victory. How long should we have kept fighting? What would it have taken to "win?" Would we have had to kill every Vietnamese person in the country? Would that have been victory?
And how did the American loss in Vietnam help China? We "won" in Korea, and that was also against Chinese communists; why didn't that war deal them a blow?

As for this war, I can't say we have lost, because there was never any way to win. It was an exercise in futility, and it has turned out to be futile. I will be very happy if we are able to give up on this one faster than we gave up on Vietnam; that will mean we learned something from history.

 

[Topsez]

The constant drumbeat of the liberal left in alliance with the press and Hollywood have beaten down the will to win in Iraq. I honestly think that Prez Bush was as in shock that America voted as they did as I was.

I fully understand why he changed Secretary Rummy since with the Dem win on the issue they would have capitivated the media as they sit him in front of endless hearings making headline news every day to support their desired end.

The momentum of winning started going down hill shortly after the fall of the Saddam statue. The press and the world started worring about innocent citizens and minimized America loses as rules of engagement were changed to support the terror element to have an upper hand. With crazy rules of engagement that forced soldiers to enter homes where an RPG was fired at them instead of just dropping a 500LB bomb on the house has resulted in 30% of American casualties. Another 30% of the casualties are a result of the idea that America will lose resolve as they did in Vietnam if they kill enough Americans... leading up to each American election our casualties rose to assure the American people would get a bad taste in their mouth and cower away from the reality of war as they did in Vietnam.

The war could be easily won if the rules of engagement were changed and the press, Hollywood and the Dem's supported victory. Women and girliemen that are either already touchy feely or made that way by bombarding of sad sob stories will continue their attack equal to the enemies our soldiers fight... until the Dems find some backbone and support the mission the press and Hollywood will continue to support the left's agenda to cut and run.

If the decision to leave Iraq short of victory then do it in one day... blow the equipment up in place and get on the first thing smoking heading East and don't allow one Iraqi to excape to the peace we offered. Let the left, the press and Hollywood explain the correct way to win a war before the next one starts as we watch the millions of people die in the battlefield we departed.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

The war could be easily won if the rules of engagement were changed and the press, Hollywood and the Dem's supported victory. Women and girliemen that are either already touchy feely or made that way by bombarding of sad sob stories will continue their attack equal to the enemies our soldiers fight...

If the decision to leave Iraq short of victory then do it in one day... blow the equipment up in place and get on the first thing smoking heading East and don't allow one Iraqi to excape to the peace we offered. Let the left, the press and Hollywood explain the correct way to win a war before the next one starts as we watch the millions of people die in the battlefield we departed.

From those "touchy feely" "girliemen", the US Marines:
http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/Secure/Cultural Intelligence/b0215.pdf

COUNTERINSURGENCY PRINCIPLES
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS
Basic Officer Course
The Basic School
Marine Combat Development Command
​

When conducting counterinsurgency operations, keep in mind that support of the populace is the final key to victory. To do this effectively, all personnel who participate must understand the culture of the populace, and the political history of the nation. Only by rectifying conditions that allowed the insurgency to arise in the first place will the guerrilla lose the support of the population. Commanders must constantly assess whether the military goals coincide with and are not counterproductive to the political goals of the host government (i.e., the United States). Regardless of what the nation's political goals are, it is important that commanders at every level understand the need to build support for the host government. Unit commanders often will participate in psychological operations to counter the guerrilla's propaganda. Finally, control of the population and resource control usually are necessary to isolate the guerrilla from his means of support. This may take the form of censuses conducted by the host government, restrictions of personal liberties, and relocation of segments of the population. These activities, while necessary, should be kept to a minimum to avoid angering the populace. In summation, the population is the center of gravity in a counterinsurgency and is controlled by the achievement of political aims.
​

 

[Topsez]

From those "touchy feely" "girliemen", the US Marines:
http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/Secure/Cultural Intelligence/b0215.pdf

COUNTERINSURGENCY PRINCIPLES
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS
Basic Officer Course
The Basic School
Marine Combat Development Command
​

When conducting counterinsurgency operations, keep in mind that support of the populace is the final key to victory. To do this effectively, all personnel who participate must understand the culture of the populace, and the political history of the nation. Only by rectifying conditions that allowed the insurgency to arise in the first place will the guerrilla lose the support of the population. Commanders must constantly assess whether the military goals coincide with and are not counterproductive to the political goals of the host government (i.e., the United States). Regardless of what the nation's political goals are, it is important that commanders at every level understand the need to build support for the host government. Unit commanders often will participate in psychological operations to counter the guerrilla's propaganda. Finally, control of the population and resource control usually are necessary to isolate the guerrilla from his means of support. This may take the form of censuses conducted by the host government, restrictions of personal liberties, and relocation of segments of the population. These activities, while necessary, should be kept to a minimum to avoid angering the populace. In summation, the population is the center of gravity in a counterinsurgency and is controlled by the achievement of political aims.
​

To do this effectively, all personnel who participate must understand the culture of the populace, and the political history of the nation.

The people are known to respond to authority of a brute force dictator.

Only by rectifying conditions that allowed the insurgency to arise in the first place will the guerrilla lose the support of the population.

The dictator was removed. To rectify the situation those who support him must be removed or silenced.

Finally, control of the population and resource control usually are necessary to isolate the guerrilla from his means of support. This may take the form of censuses conducted by the host government, restrictions of personal liberties, and relocation of segments of the population.

Widen battle to Iran and Syria to prevent outside support. Hostile centers should be cordoned off and innocents asked to depart and then bomb the remaining into stone age. Perhaps one town like Fallujah would have done the trick.

 

[hipsterdufus]

How silly of George Bush not to have listened to the ant-war cut-and-run specialists at an earlier time. Remember back for those few months post 9/11 that George Bush and Rudi Guliani were perceived as the ‘Great Uniters’ of America and of the spirit to protect it’s people?

Which war, Iraq or Afghanistan?

Iraq - We should have left shortly after toppling Saddam around "Mission Accomplished" time. Now we're stuck in the middle of a civil war. The Saddam part was a win, our current position is a no win.

Afghanistan - undecided but OBL is still on the loose and the Taliban are getting stronger.

 

[hipsterdufus]

The constant drumbeat of the liberal left in alliance with the press and Hollywood have beaten down the will to win in Iraq. I honestly think that Prez Bush was as in shock that America voted as they did as I was.

How would Bubble Boy know the pulse of the country? With very few exceptions, he only appears at carefully staged events in front of supporters. His handlers feed him a bunch of crap day in and day out.

Watch Bush to try to redeem some of his legacy the next two years. He can do it if he works with the Dems.

 

[Red_Dave]

How silly of George Bush not to have listened to the ant-war cut-and-run specialists at an earlier time. Remember back for those few months post 9/11 that George Bush and Rudi Guliani were perceived as the ‘Great Uniters’ of America and of the spirit to protect it’s people?

Americans in general seem to lack the patience and will power to fight evil regimes worldwide.

Anti-War demonstrators helped create the turn hide, cut-and-run strategy that led America to it’s first humiliating foreign war loss in Vietnam. The victors in that war were the NVA backed up by the Chi-Coms. Because of America’s chicken ***** policy toward the Vietnam War--Chinese Communism has blossomed to where China is now the 2nd most powerful nation on earth next to America. Is it any surprise (with our cave in during the Vietnam war) that the majority of our foreign debt is with the Chi-Coms? Don’t the Chi-Coms also have port and base control to both ends of the Panama Canal? Sounds a bit de ya vu Cuban missile build up to me.

But I digress: It was never going to be a cakewalk taking the fight to terrorists on their own land. Logistic preparations alone would make for a war policy that includes a lengthy time period so as to insure military resolve and eventual victory.
So American impatience won the day again. The enemy (Islamic Fascism) utilized a brilliant game plan: Sit tight…don’t let the Bedouin bugs bite, regale over their war ally’s impressive win on November 7th, wait for the self destructive in-fighting to take center stage between the legislative and executive branches of the United States Government, and rejoice in certain victory once the House of Representatives initiate ad hoc impeachment proceedings on George Bush.

Isn’t Cindy Sheehan in jail at the moment? Kind of sad that she (being the foremost anti-war icon) won’t get to see or join her liberal teammates as they bask in the glory of yet another American war defeat.

If your so concerned about tyranny in china then i assume your morally outraged that your fellow republicans lifted a ban on arms exports to said country? Likewise if your concerned about islamic facism then i assume your lobbying Bush to stop aproveing arms sales to saudi arabia? crocodiles tears as far as im concerned

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

If your so concerned about tyranny in china then i assume your morally outraged that your fellow republicans lifted a ban on arms exports to said country? Likewise if your concerned about islamic facism then i assume your lobbying Bush to stop aproveing arms sales to saudi arabia? crocodiles tears as far as im concerned

Actually it was Clinton who lifted the missille sales ban to China, what arms sales were lifted against China by the Republican Congress?

As to Saudi Arabia they recently had the first municple elections in the history of their country, it's not much but it's a first step.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by TOT:
Actually it was Clinton who lifted the missille sales ban to China, what arms sales were lifted against China by the Republican Congress?

As to Saudi Arabia they recently had the first municple elections in the history of their country, it's not much but it's a first step.

Re-nounce Clinton and Saudi Arabia and get a job.

You have 5 votes in the "Asshat" pole down in the basement.

Don't kill the messenger~!

 

[Topsez]

How would Bubble Boy know the pulse of the country? With very few exceptions, he only appears at carefully staged events in front of supporters. His handlers feed him a bunch of crap day in and day out.

Watch Bush to try to redeem some of his legacy the next two years. He can do it if he works with the Dems.

Prez Bush has absolutely nothing to gain in his legacy by working with the Dems... nothing! Now, if he could get the Dems to work with him then there would be possibilities good for Bush and the nation could come from the mess.

Like I said, I was surprised as Prez Bush and I don't think the war was the resounding factor... the war success was the top event being measured in this election but not the Dem's view of how it should go down.

Back to the way we handled rules of engagement. We cordoned off Fallaujah and then sent our Marines and soldiers in to be killed by insurgents and terrorists and it didn't win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis nor did it win the minds of Americans that want a decisive victory.

The city was cordoned off... we had refugee tents and supplies from the beginning of the war to house the residents of Fallaujah. We could have set up food, water and basic functions in a tent city and asked all non combatants to leave the city. Then we could ask anyone in the world who is concerned about those citizens remaining inside of the city to com on down... from Human Rights watch to the UN tell them to come on down and have a fleet of Greyhound busses and wheelchair lift vans to give them to pick up any other innocents in the city. Then announce to those remaining in the city they are considered combatants if they fail to leave unarmed in 24 hours. Then turn off the water, electricity, plug the sewage and don't allow any food, water to enter the city... wait two weeks and then send in the Marines and Army... one hostile bullet a 500LB bomb answers it within seconds. Hearts and minds of the Iraqi's and Americans.

 

[Hatuey]

Prez Bush has absolutely nothing to gain in his legacy by working with the Dems... nothing! Now, if he could get the Dems to work with him then there would be possibilities good for Bush and the nation could come from the mess.

LOL WHAT IS BUSH'S LEGACY? 3000 People dead on his watch? 3000 U.S. Soldiers dead(It'll hit that number before he's out of office trust me). Defficit up and down? Taxcuts for the rich? Useless help for Katrina victims? Putting America in a shitty war and even shittier situation with the rest of the world? Destroying any hope we have of ever being looked at as a peaceful "god"-loving nation ever again?

PS: Can we blame Katrina on Clinton? And yes the people from the WTC died on Bush's watch not Clinton.

Like I said, I was surprised as Prez Bush and I don't think the war was the resounding factor... the war success was the top event being measured in this election but not the Dem's view of how it should go down.

You and the President were living a dream. Like Alice in Wonderland.

 

[Topsez]

LOL WHAT IS BUSH'S LEGACY? 3000 People dead on his watch? 3000 U.S. Soldiers dead(It'll hit that number before he's out of office trust me).

Again, the majority of the casualties are attributed to the anti war movement that encourages cut and run. That number includes those in Afghanistan. We have a military for just the reason to protect America and nothing more. In the first year of Iraq and Afghanistan wars the most Army casualties were from traffic accidents in the US. In the case of Iraq the alternative concern was the ME neighbors developing WMD's to protect themselves from Iraq and the worry that Iraq would use the enemy of his enemy to strike America. The same is true today with Iran, as Iran builds nukes the moderate neighbors are beginning to do the same. If a threat isn't addressed it ripens over time with less opportunity to resolve without major problems.

Defficit up and down? Taxcuts for the rich? Useless help for Katrina victims?

War cost money, Medicare cost money but not as much as the Dem alternative. Robin Hood worries about a fractional tax cut for the rich while all lower tax brackets recieved much higher tax breaks. No administration would have done well with Katrina, it was a disaster of epic proportion.

Putting America in a shitty war and even shittier situation with the rest of the world? Destroying any hope we have of ever being looked at as a peaceful "god"-loving nation ever again?

There is nothing other than a shitty war and the rest of the world could care less if America is devistated with terror bombings of equal or greater proportion of 9-11, we are of lower concern than Darfur, yet we bail out all of them when the going gets tough.

PS: Can we blame Katrina on Clinton? And yes the people from the WTC died on Bush's watch not Clinton.

Katrina was a natural disaster. Both parties are guilty of allowing the Islamic parties to even think they could knock down the Twin Towers or the Pentagon on 9-11. These events were encouraged by innaction over decades.

You and the President were living a dream. Like Alice in Wonderland.

I don't think so, there was a group of bad players in the Republican administration, those who took payoffs and other scandals. The nation was united to support Prez Bush on both Afghanistan and Iraq but overcome by lack of results in Iraq. The people, as a majority don't wish cut and run nor regret the freeing of the two nations but they want a decisive victory or someone to say out loud in a convincing we can't win. Some have said this but it hasn't stuck to the wall yet. We can win if we get on the same team.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

In the first year of Iraq and Afghanistan wars the most Army casualties were from traffic accidents in the US.

[cough]bullshit, bullshit[/cough]

 

[Hatuey]

Again, the majority of the casualties are attributed to the anti war movement that encourages cut and run.

LOL I love how you're blaming our soldiers getting killed on people prostesting the war. You're an idiot. Blame the politicians who put them there not the people trying to get them home safely.

War cost money, Medicare cost money but not as much as the Dem alternative. Robin Hood worries about a fractional tax cut for the rich while all lower tax brackets recieved much higher tax breaks. No administration would have done well with Katrina, it was a disaster of epic proportion.

Really? How long did it take for Bush to react again?

There is nothing other than a shitty war and the rest of the world could care less if America is devistated with terror bombings of equal or greater proportion of 9-11, we are of lower concern than Darfur, yet we bail out all of them when the going gets tough.

The funny part you think placing 130,000 people in Iraq makes us safe. Because terrorists can't come in through Canada or Mexico.

I don't think so, there was a group of bad players in the Republican administration, those who took payoffs and other scandals.

Try the entire republican party.

The people, as a majority don't wish cut and run nor regret the freeing of the two nations but they want a decisive victory or someone to say out loud in a convincing we can't win.

70% Of Americans disagree with you.

Some have said this but it hasn't stuck to the wall yet. We can win if we get on the same team

You dont get it do you.

 

[Spencer Collins]

We can defeat our enemies but defeating their ideology is a very tall order. We have now been to Iraq twice and we should complete the mission! However...we may have to return there again and again! Yes.. our goals in Iraq were to remove Saddam and give the gift of democracy to a people who do not embrace it nor understand it's concept. This is like throwing pearls before swine.We can assist the people of Iraq and we should but at some point..they must be willing to spill their own blood in greater numbers to achieve a true and lasting democracy!

I remain concerned with the fact that we are far more interested in their freedom than they are! When Americans fought for freedom we had help against the British but we spilled our own blood in great numbers to achieve freedom! Granted..the fight in Iraq is motivated mainly by our war with terrorism and freedom is only a part of the process but I am not impressed with the Iraqi peoples lack of will to fight! In the end...we cannot supply freedom "for" them. They must do it for themselves.

 

[Topsez]

[cough]bullshit, bullshit[/cough]

As it turns out the Army has lost more soldiers to traffic accidents every year of the war than to the war... Sad but true.

As the final reports arrive at the Army Safety Center for 2003, the
Army has lost 246 soldiers to accidents this fiscal year.

Accidents in
privately owned vehicles (POVs) and Army combat
vehicles (ACVs) accounted for over 60 percent
of our total fatalities this year. To attack POV
accidents, the Army’s biggest killer, we are now
conducting centralized accident investigations

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...+casualties+of+US+ARMY+SMA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4

These pages load slow on my system but on page twelve I think you may find even more surprising data.

It could be that if these soldiers were not in Iraq more would die on the highways than if they were.

 

[Duke]

I don't know a whole lot about Vietnam, but I was under the impression that we lost the war because we, well, lost the war.

That's ridiculous! Anyone with half a brain knows that we lost the war because of those no-good, America-hating, anti-war, red-kneed, pinko communist atheist scum! It had nothing to do with the VC or the NVA!

And anyone with a full brain knows that's total BS. :roll:


Duke

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

That's ridiculous! Anyone with half a brain knows that we lost the war because of those no-good, America-hating, anti-war, red-kneed, pinko communist atheist scum! It had nothing to do with the VC or the NVA!

And anyone with a full brain knows that's total BS. :roll:


Duke

We didn't lose a single battle in Vietnam, even the Vietnamese admit it was the homefront that lost us the war.

 

[Topsez]

We didn't lose a single battle in Vietnam, even the Vietnamese admit it was the homefront that lost us the war.

The red kneed anti war folks only caused a black granite wall of shame and the deaths of nearly 2,000,000 following our exit prior to victory. This is how the north viewed us and how terrorists view today as a result.

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13121

 

[Duke]

We didn't lose a single battle in Vietnam, even the Vietnamese admit it was the homefront that lost us the war.

I'm not arguing with that, Trajan. We surely never lost and we surely never won.


Duke

 

[Duke]

The red kneed anti war folks only caused a black granite wall of shame and the deaths of nearly 2,000,000 following our exit prior to victory. This is how the north viewed us and how terrorists view today as a result.

Yeah, just like I said! Anyone with half a brain knows that we didn't lose because of the terrain, the enemies, or the situation, we lost because of those damn red-kneed America hating atheist hippie pansies! Duh!:roll:


Duke

 

[Hatuey]

The red kneed anti war folks only caused a black granite wall of shame and the deaths of nearly 2,000,000 following our exit prior to victory. This is how the north viewed us and how terrorists view today as a result.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said,

"We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Imagine if we had stayed in Vietnam for another 5-10 years. The death toll for us would have been double. That sounds alot like what the terrorist's idea for fighting us.

Q: What of Nixon?

A: Well, when Nixon stepped down because of Watergate we knew we would win. Pham Van Dong [prime minister of North Vietnam] said of Gerald Ford, the new president, "he's the weakest president in U.S. history; the people didn't elect him; even if you gave him candy, he doesn't dare to intervene in Vietnam again." We tested Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long in January 1975. When Ford kept American B-52's in their hangers, our leadership decided on a big offensive against South Vietnam.

A republican president being the weakest in U.S. history? Impossible.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Yeah, just like I said! Anyone with half a brain knows that we didn't lose because of the terrain, the enemies, or the situation, we lost because of those damn red-kneed America hating atheist hippie pansies! Duh!:roll:


Duke

Red kneed?

 

[dragonslayer]

We easily won the war, but we lost when we tried to become the rulers of Iraq