Has America Become a Machine of Evil?

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

i am not opposing any belief on any states, i just don't see it as morally right

Yes you did you just said that the judgement should be left to god and not the state but what about people who don't believe in god where is their justice?

You are probably right, the same applies to your view of britains NHS for instance. I just find figures on spending in US election and so forth very frightening

What are you talking about campaign finance reform has had a more adverse effect than the problem itself, ie, now people like George Soros have been granted vast amounts of power and influence in the political sphere, and you get unsavory characters like Jack Abramoff coming out of the woodwork and gaining alot of influence because only those without scrubles will violate the campaign reforms. That's what happens when you take away the right of the average citizens 1st amendment right to speak with their wallets.

you are quite right but i don't go around making statements about my countries moral supremacy, or statements saying that my system of government is the best in the world, or statements saying that my country has had the greatest impact on mankind.

That's because yours hasn't ours has ie your colonialist imperialist past.

 

[justone]

Ok fine just some off the top of my head:

National Health Service that covers everyone but is cheaper than the US Medicare

Guantanmo Bay - illegal detention of people in a land that is all about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

The extent to which businesses and lobbying firms that act for them play a part in US politics

Death Penalty

Guns, guns and yet more guns and a powerfull lobby to maintain them for the general population (see above about money and lobbying)

I read the above and I did not agree with the way UK covers things.
Should I ask for a poll: Has UK Become a Machine of Evil?

 

[Goobieman]

Ok fine just some off the top of my head:

National Health Service that covers everyone but is cheaper than the US Medicare

Guantanmo Bay - illegal detention of people in a land that is all about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

The extent to which businesses and lobbying firms that act for them play a part in US politics

Death Penalty

Guns, guns and yet more guns and a powerfull lobby to maintain them for the general population (see above about money and lobbying)

None of these things show that the UK is "better' than the US, and none of them show that the US is NOT the last best hope for freedom and liberty in the world.

 

[Willoughby]

That's because yours hasn't ours has ie your colonialist imperialist past.

better to have a colonialist imperialist past than a colonialist imperialist present

 

[Goobieman]

better to have a colonialist imperialist past than a colonialist imperialist present

Another snide, immature and bigoted remark.

Show us, EXACTLY how the actions uf the United States, presently, are Colonialist or Imperialst in nature. Note that you'll have to show motive as well as actions in order to do this. THEN show how these actions differ from those prior to 2001, when were were undusputedly held up as the leader of the free world rather than a colonial, imperial power.

This, too, should be amusing.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

better to have a colonialist imperialist past than a colonialist imperialist present

Isn't that witty save for the fact that the U.S. is neither imperialist or colonialist. Hay where's there a U.S. colony or where has there ever been a U.S. colony? We don't conquer territory we liberate it and after we're done we leave the people to their own devices ie Germany and Japan.

 

[Goobieman]

Isn't that witty save for the fact that the U.S. is neither imperialist or colonialist. Hay where's there a U.S. colony or where has there ever been a U.S. colony? We don't conquer territory we liberate it and after we're done we leave the people to their own devices ie Germany and Japan.

The closest the US has ever come to an Imperialist power was when we defeated Spain in 1898 and took several of her posessions..

Prior to that, and after that, the US has not taken any territory or resource from any country it has defeated -- indeed, the US is alone in world history in that it actively REBUILDS the countries it defeats into open, liberal democracies (and we do this WHILE rebuilding our allies).

This is something we continue to do, even today.

Why? Because only WE have the commitment determination and resources to do so.

 

[RightinNYC]

i am not opposing any belief on any states, i just don't see it as morally right

Well, what you find moral and what other might find moral are likely different. For example, some people would see your countries sanction of domestic partnerships for homosexual couples as immoral, while you and I would see it as the moral thing to do. "Morality" is a bad thing to base policy on, if you don't have to.

You are probably right, the same applies to your view of britains NHS for instance. I just find figures on spending in US election and so forth very frightening

I see it as evidence of a healthy and active populace.

you are quite right but i don't go around making statements about my countries moral supremacy, or statements saying that my system of government is the best in the world, or statements saying that my country has had the greatest impact on mankind

.

So are you saying that the lustre of the US is diminished by the fact that some people choose to extol it's virtues?

 

[Willoughby]

So are you saying that the lustre of the US is diminished by the fact that some people choose to extol it's virtues?

no of course not. I was just saying that i don't belive my country has moral supremacy so i don't go around saying it, i also don't believe that the US has moral supremacy. I only reason i go on about cases where the US acts (in my opinion) immorally is because certaining forum members keep banging on about the US's moral supremacy

 

[Goobieman]

no of course not. I was just saying that i don't belive my country has moral supremacy so i don't go around saying it, i also don't believe that the US has moral supremacy. I only reason i go on about cases where the US acts (in my opinion) immorally is because certaining forum members keep banging on about the US's moral supremacy

And you clearly ignore the vast number of cases wher the US DOES act "morally".

No one does the good that we do, because no one that wants to, can

 

[Willoughby]

And you clearly ignore the vast number of cases wher the US DOES act "morally".

i admit i do brush over some of the cases where the US does act morally it is just that with the immoral ones there are more to talk about and they are much more interesting

 

[Goobieman]

i admit i do brush over some of the cases where the US does act morally it is just that with the immoral ones there are more to talk about and they are much more interesting

Typical.

Lets ignore all the good stuff, because the bad stuff is more fun.

Remember when I used the word "immature" to describe your post(s)?
It should now be very clear as to why I chose that word.

How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

 

[Willoughby]

Typical.

Lets ignore all the good stuff, because the bad stuff is more fun.

Remember when I used the word "immature" to describe your post(s)?
It should now be very clear as to why I chose that word.

How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

let me explain myself a little bit. When i said more interesting i might have given the wrong impression. I think it is important because the US is the biggest military/economic power in the world so its immoral actions have more weight than overs. I also think it is important to play devil's advocate on some occasion. People start threads on here proclaiming the US's moral supremacy so i just have to point out that the US does not have moral supremacy in my eyes because like all other countries it does immoral and moral things.

 

[Goobieman]

let me explain myself a little bit. When i said more interesting i might have given the wrong impression. I think it is important because the US is the biggest military/economic power in the world so its immoral actions have more weight than overs. I also think it is important to play devil's advocate on some occasion. People start threads on here proclaiming the US's moral supremacy so i just have to point out that the US does not have moral supremacy in my eyes because like all other countries it does immoral and moral things.

How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

 

[Willoughby]

For a democracy like the US to spread democracy it must pratice what it preaches and i don't believe it is doing that adequatly at the moment

I belive that democracy will spread inevitably no matter, and maybe in despite of, what the US does

 

[Goobieman]

For a democracy like the US to spread democracy it must pratice what it preaches and i don't believe it is doing that adequatly at the moment

You havent addressed the question:
How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

And, of course, another question begs:
How is the US not "aqdequatly practicing democracy'?

 

[Willoughby]

How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

the slow march towards democracy around the world has been coming long before american domination, i feel that it will happen with or without US help

 

[Goobieman]

the slow march towards democracy around the world has been coming long before american domination, i feel that it will happen with or without US help

You are STILL avoiding the question:
How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

At this point there's little doubt that you're avoiding it because you don't actually have an asnwer for it.

 

[Willoughby]

How is it again that the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

At this point there's little doubt that you're avoiding it because you don't actually have an asnwer for it.

i have answered the question, i don't believe that the US is the last hope for democracy, freedom and liberty in the world because i believe that demoracy, freedom and liberty will come anyway.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

the slow march towards democracy around the world has been coming long before american domination, i feel that it will happen with or without US help

Bullshit it was on the road to totalitarianism, communism, fascism, and dictatorship.

 

[alphamale]

i believe that demoracy, freedom and liberty will come anyway

Astounding! Do they teach twentieth century world history where you are?

 

[RightinNYC]

i have answered the question, i don't believe that the US is the last hope for democracy, freedom and liberty in the world because i believe that demoracy, freedom and liberty will come anyway.

Because democracy was on the rise pre-US Constitution? Oh, that's right, no it wasn't.

And its quite amusing to hear you go on and on about how the US isn't helping to spread freedom. It was the UK that continued to trample on freedom in its colonies in Africa and SE Asia even after World War II. And it was the US who stepped in to force European powers to abide by the policy of self-determination both after WWI and WWII. Now how again are we not remaining true to those precepts?

 

[Goobieman]

i have answered the question, i don't believe that the US is the last hope for democracy, freedom and liberty in the world because i believe that demoracy, freedom and liberty will come anyway.

I see that you're ignorant of 19th 20th and 21st century World History.

 

[PeteEU]

Lets get a bit of perspective here instead of the grandstanding by both sides.

The US is a great nation in today's world but on historical terms its not really a great nation per say.

The Egyptians, Mayans, Chinese, Romans, Greeks, Islamic world, and many more of the ancient world had much greater impact on the course of the human race than the US has had. These nations evented and found out of things we take for granted today. Even the French and British have had more to shape and expand humanity than the US has, but after all the US is a very very very young nation (and some times acts its age :2wave: ). Remember there would be no USA if the spanish king had not sent Columbus or if the Vikings had not sent ships long before Spain was a world power. There would be no USA if the British, French, Spanish had not colonized the continent.

Has the US been the main driving force since 1941 in world politics and policy making... you bet. But you cant claim that it has been 100% succesfull... actually far from it.

Has said US policy up to date been consistant and benificial for man kind and everyone... hell no. Its been egotistical, self absorbed and nationalistic and is to this day and I would say that is to be expected by any nation. But that dont mean we non Americans have to sit and take the "abuse" so to say, but of course we can take the good stuff .

But to this question

Is the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?

Depends if you see the US as a democratic, freedom loving, rule of law and full of liberty nation. Many dont and think they have plenty to back up thier feelings.

The US is far from perfect and its policies are far from "the way"... but one think that history has proven time and time again. You can not force democracy on a nation or area without the seeds being there or laid before hand.

But saying that, this goes for most nations for most time periods.....the only difference is that the US has the power to eliminate mankind from the surface of the planet.

 

[Goobieman]

Is the US is NOT the last, best hope for Freedom and Liberty in the world?
Depends if you see the US as a democratic, freedom loving, rule of law and full of liberty nation. Many dont and think they have plenty to back up thier feelings.

Horse puckey.
I defy anyone to provide legitimate support (that is, support not based on partisan bigotry) for the idea that the US is not a democratic, freedom loving, rule of law and full of liberty nation.

You can not force democracy on a nation or area without the seeds being there or laid before hand.

Germany.
Japan.
Korea.
Now, you're going to argue that 'the seeds' were already there - which is, of course, nonsense.