Hard to overstate the ‘diabolical dumbness’ of Sarah Silverman’s rant

[Phys251]

Transphobe has nothing to do with it.

Transphobia, like its homophobia counterpart, is a defensive reaction to a perceived advantage to this disadvantaged group.

Even if a few trans girls got a slight advantage in a few athletic events, so? There are so much more important issues in life than this. It's nothing more than the latest right-wing freakout over nothing.

 

[Linuxcooldude]

Really? I posted an admission, on camera, by a governor who just signed three bills allegedly addressing concerns quite similar to
yours, concerns he admitted were actually non-existent in his state, a state with acute wealth concentration and resistant to permitting non-punitive health care coverage for its large percentage of working poor in the midst of acute pandemic. Why then, with grave problems unsolved all around us, are your "concerns" anything other than a distraction.... solutions in search of actual problems?

That was before you added the additional information to your post, which I'm still not sure it's relavent here.

 

[post]

I know several female athletes, both current and former, and not one of them is happy about men being able to compete with them. This is one of those issues that 5 years ago I would have bet everything I owned that not even the kookiest of leftists would support, and I would have lost everything.

That was before you added the additional information to your post, which I'm still not sure it's relavent here.

So... this is not a "flame bait" RWE political thread? If not, what is it?
From this thread's OP :

I know several female athletes, both current and former, and not one of them is happy about men being able to compete with them. This is one of those issues that 5 years ago I would have bet everything I owned that not even the kookiest of leftists would support, and I would have lost everything.

What is actually "kooky" is a state with needs of the many so acute going ignored or actively denied while its legislature passes four
bills to "address" a trans-gender "problem" in womens sports the governor of the state admits does not exist. IOW, if you're actually concerned enough about this invented distraction to support political "solutions" to address it, you've likely been manipulated to avert your attention from the problems facts prioritize but are ignored in favor of attention to this comparative nonsense.

 

[Linuxcooldude]

Transphobia, like its homophobia counterpart, is a defensive reaction to a perceived advantage to this disadvantaged group.

Even if a few trans girls got a slight advantage in a few athletic events, so? There are so much more important issues in life than this. It's nothing more than the latest right-wing freakout over nothing.

Sorry, I don't agree with you in the slightest. You can have no ill..will to transgendered people and still not agree to allowing them to compete with women. Using "slight" advantage, to soften your argument, you somewhat seem to agree to some amount. You seem fine with an advantage, that effects women rather than seeming to go against transgender people.

 

[Phys251]

Sorry, I don't agree with you in the slightest.

You're entitled to your ignorant opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Why are you under the delusion that trans people have it just fine?

You can have no ill..will to transgendered people

Transgender. Get it right.

and still not agree to allowing them to compete with women. Using "slight" advantage, to soften your argument, you somewhat seem to agree to some amount. You seem fine with an advantage, that effects women rather than seeming to go against transgender people.

Congratulations on cherry-picking my post and letting the point sail right over your head.

How about you use some critical reasoning skills to read what I actually said instead of putting your personal right-wing spin on it.

 

[post]

You're entitled to your ignorant opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. Why are you under the delusion that trans people have it just fine?
-snip-

If you humanize and show any empathy for this fabricated, sinister "other", you might lose "the mo"....

CNN.com - Transcripts
"...TAPPER: A lot of Arkansas Republicans are really focused on trans kids. And they're targeting them with legislation.

They offered a bill that would ban trans kids from participating in girls and women's sports. You signed that law, even though you have acknowledged there are no actual cases in Arkansas of trans kids causing any sort of problems on the athletic field.

If this is not an actual problem in Arkansas, if there are no female girl, women athletes in Arkansas objecting to this, then what is the end result of this, other than demonizing a bunch of already vulnerable kids?..."

 

[Simpletruther]

To your first point....it shows that they arent about letting every swinging dick pretend to be a woman.

To the second....they are outnumbered 100 to 1 in general population, so Im still not sure what point you are trying to make. Unless you have some evidence that they are starting to be overrepresented in sports, you still got nothing.

If you have a tiny population of something, it might have a better average, but yet it's highest performers might not be as high as the highest performers of the much larger group. The much larger group has a much greater chance of mutations/deviations further from the norm.

So at the far end of the spectrum (Olympics) the advantage wouldn't be as great for the small group as for average competitors on the local level.

But even at the local level most high schools will have at most 2 trans, and most of the time those trans are above the average for the biological females. But since there are 200 biological females, the odds are most times the best out ofnthe 200 will be better than the 2 trans.

But form those unlucky schools with a best out of 200 level trans, there will be an advantage over the "best out of 200" biological female.

I have no doubt once adjusted for population size, trans will outperform biologicals on average by a considerable margin.

 

[Tiny]

The principle is that everyone should be able to compete in everything.

Reality disagrees with you. We already don't allow natural born males to compete against natural born females in almost every sport.

Sports will evolve just like other social institutions after desegregation have. Separate but equal is not equal. Should revert to separate sports teams that segregate on race because one race dominates in some sports?

According to this "logic" of yours, having sex-segregated washrooms is also "unequal", so now we need to make everybody all pee in the same facility, otherwise we would be just as bad as racists. And no more separate locker rooms, and make sure both sexes sleep in the same barracks in the armed forces (by the way, let me know how well that one will work out), in fact, why make any distinction at all, adults should demand to be admitted into a kindergarten, I mean, we mustn't be "ageist", right?

No offense, but your "logic" blows.

 

[Tiny]

Your value judgement, while yours to make, seems to be based on something that simply isn't proven to be factually accurate.

Again, its your to make, but I would question why you would make that choice.

How do you base a value judgment on something factual? Do you know what a value judgment is and how it comes about?

Give me your definition of value judgment.

 

[craig]

Reality disagrees with you. We already don't allow natural born males to compete against natural born females in almost every sport.


According to this "logic" of yours, having sex-segregated washrooms is also "unequal", so now we need to make everybody all pee in the same facility, otherwise we would be just as bad as racists. And no more separate locker rooms, and make sure both sexes sleep in the same barracks in the armed forces (by the way, let me know how well that one will work out), in fact, why make any distinction at all, adults should demand to be admitted into a kindergarten, I mean, we mustn't be "ageist", right?

No offense, but your "logic" blows.

Unisex bathrooms are not radical. Households don't sex assign their bathrooms. Men and women work together all the time. Do you think there are separate facilities in the space station? If you can't pee if there is a woman in the stall next to you then you have a problem. And you did not comment on segregating sports based on race.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

But...ya know...theres no advantage...

And hey...that doesnt mean he is THE BEST 'woman' fighter. There are women that beat him. But the reality is that MOST fighters in the MMA arent the TOP...ELITE in the sport and THOSE are the people that Fallon Fox ****ed up.

Ohhh so the trans athlete wins some and loses some. How controversial.

 

[Aristaeus]

No it's not.

There are a number of peer-reviewed scientific studies that show strength and speed retention in transwomen even after years of testosterone suppression.

I'll try to find the links later if I get time. They are floating about on the sex and sexuality forum somewhere.

 

[Aristaeus]

My dad is a high school track coach, and he had an interesting take on this issue.

He is of the mind that there should be a period of time that must pass between reassignment surgery and your ability to compete. His thought is that post op, natural testosterone levels come down and somewhat evens the playing field. Since the data doesn't back the idea of dominance by post assignment females, I can almost get on board with that idea.

Thoughts?

Actually, the data shows male biological advantage persists even after years of testosterone suppression. Here's some peer-reviewed scientific studies.

A September 2019 study from the Karolinska Institutet in Stockholm found that a year of hormone therapy decreased muscle mass in transgender women only modestly. - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/105/3/e805/5651219

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Transwomen still being 12% faster than biological women after two years of treatment. - https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2020/11/06/bjsports-2020-102329

A 38-page draft document from World Rugby's transgender working group in 2020 acknowledged that cisgender female rugby players, when tackled by a player who has gone through male puberty, are at a significantly greater risk of injury. The document cites recent peer-reviewed research. The working group calculated that increased injury risk for typical players with female characteristics when tackled by a typical player with male characteristics was between 20-30%, and potentially reaching "levels twice as large" in extreme cases where the players are unusually small and large, respectively.

 

[Peter King]

I know several female athletes, both current and former, and not one of them is happy about men being able to compete with them. This is one of those issues that 5 years ago I would have bet everything I owned that not even the kookiest of leftists would support, and I would have lost everything.

This is only one way I see, transgender girls who want to play with other girls. Because transgender boys wanting to play with other boys is a lot less problematic I would think.

But most transgendered girls who used to be boys have in a lot of cases been using hormone blockers thus their physical dominance over others in their age group is not that much of an issue. Or do you think this transgender



Is physically way dominant over other girls her age? She has been helped so no more hormones from the male reproductive organs, loads of female hormones were given to her and she has the physique of other girls her age.

Other women, born women if you like have also had higher levels of testosterone in their blood, far higher than other women and also had a physical advantage over all other women, do you ban them too? I think hormone levels should be regularly checked if transgirls want to participate in sports or a medical test so to speak to make sure no huge physical advantage will be gained from their transition into girls. Because most transgirls are not "the rock" kind of "girls" with all their dangly bits still there.

 

[phoenix2020]

I think it is okay to let them compete with women based on the data we have today, but we should monitor the data to see if it does introduce a competitiveness issue over time that needs to be addressed. I agree both that intuitively it seems like we would see a problem but also that the current data doesn’t support it. So I say: allow it, monitor it, and switch to trans people competing in coed leagues if it does become an issue down the road. Simple, problem solved.

 

[Aristaeus]

I think it is okay to let them compete with women based on the data we have today, but we should monitor the data to see if it does introduce a competitiveness issue over time that needs to be addressed. I agree both that intuitively it seems like we would see a problem but also that the current data doesn’t support it. So I say: allow it, monitor it, and switch to trans people competing in coed leagues if it does become an issue down the road. Simple, problem solved.

See my links above to a number of peer-reviewed scientific research that shows male physical advantages remain even after years of testosterone suppression.

 

[phoenix2020]

See my links above to a number of peer-reviewed scientific research that shows male physical advantages remain even after years of testosterone suppression.

No because I already did. And I’m sure you looked at the links posted by others that apparently this is not translating to a lack of competitiveness. Hence my position that wait-and -adjust is a sensible position. I do realize that won’t be popular since it does not fit either side’s narrative on this topic.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

No because I already did. And I’m sure you looked at the links posted by others that apparently this is not translating to a lack of competitiveness. Hence my position that wait-and -adjust is a sensible position. I do realize that won’t be popular since it does not fit either side’s narrative on this topic.

To be honest, your suggestion is starting to sound like the most sane approach the more we talk about it and information is shared.