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Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas?

  • Happy Holidays

    Votes: 13 41.9%
  • Merry Christmas

    Votes: 15 48.4%
  • Neither

    Votes: 3 9.7%

  • Total voters
    31

JOHNYJ

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Columbusite said:
Maybe I should have made that "I'm only 1/4 joking". Looks like the rational Christians are getting closer to what Pat preaches. Luckily for me, there are liberal Christians who value separation of church & state and aren't falling for this "War on Christmas" BS.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/news/051205f.asp

Of course, the AFA is in on this too.
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=2&id=6656
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=1&id=6659

You better hang on to those, 'liberal christians ' .There aren't many left of any consequence.The Episcopalians are down by a million members since that sharp left they took in the 70's.Recently they were suspended from active participation in the world wide Anglican Communion. The Presbyterians are endorsing the leaders of North Korea, Sudan and Cuba .While finding America an evil country. The Methodists are starting to slide into confusion.
The Major christian churches that are growing are the Southern Baptist convention, the Pentacostals and the Roman Catholics.
 

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RubberDucky said:
This shouldn't matter. People should say Merry Christmas if they are a believer, and Happy Holidays if they are not. People should also keep in mind who they are talking to.

I'm not insulted by Happy Chanakuh displays, so why should it matter? Christmas can be a secular holiday as well as religious.

That's what a number of us have been saying all along, but some people just can't accept that as a possibility.
 

Columbusite

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Deegan said:
I don't understand why you continue to be rude, and presumptuous with me, I have not taken that tone with you sir. I would be interested to know what you think is irrational about my thoughts and opinions on this subject. We both seem to be comfortable with the way our constitution has protected us all, we should be in agreement, but you choose to be defensive, why is that?:confused:

Your refusal to acknowledge the very real separation of church & state is mind-numbing, I just can't stand it. Not to mention your outright lies against an organization that is pro Constitution.
 
Last edited:

Columbusite

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JOHNYJ said:
You better hang on to those, 'liberal christians ' .There aren't many left of any consequence.The Episcopalians are down by a million members since that sharp left they took in the 70's.Recently they were suspended from active participation in the world wide Anglican Communion. The Presbyterians are endorsing the leaders of North Korea, Sudan and Cuba .While finding America an evil country. The Methodists are starting to slide into confusion.
The Major christian churches that are growing are the Southern Baptist convention, the Pentacostals and the Roman Catholics.

I'm sure there are conservative ones too, but probably not as many. I think most mainstream denominations recognize how important separation of church & state is for them. Are you saying that you don't want Christians to recognize the freedom given to them by separation of church & state?
 

Columbusite

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Stace said:
That's what a number of us have been saying all along, but some people just can't accept that as a possibility.

No, dammit! We're gonna take back Christmas and rename back to what it should be: CHRIST-mas! Take that Santa! You fat red commie!
 

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Stace said:
You have not seen atheists and/or non Christians attacked? Which rock have you been living under? Now, I know that you cannot lump all Christians into one big group, but there are a number of them that feel people without God in their life, and/or people that have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, are going to Hell. Non Christians did not ask for any fight...they simply want to be accepted for who they are and what they believe in.

No one is arguing that religion is necessarily a bad thing. I didn't say anything about the Founding Fathers being upset that religion still exists....I think they would be disappointed to see the words they wrote taken so strongly out of context. They did indeed mean for there to be a separation of church and state...they realized even then that not all Americans had the same beliefs and faiths, and understood that you cannot govern a nation based upon one faith.

I think we are in danger of a theocracy, because so many right wing Christians are so opposed to the separation of church and state. We cannot have a nation considered fair and equal if we are ruled by the beliefs of one faith, and while the numbers may be slipping, the fact still remains that the majority of the country is indeed Christian, and without separation of church and state, we would indeed be ruled by Christian principles.

I have nothing against Christmas, I don't really know anyone who does...as best as I can determine, the Republicans and many Christians simply feel threatened because the rest of us recognize that there are other holidays celebrated this season and we want to include everyone, because we also recognize that no celebration is more important than another.

Once again, you're incorrect in your version of separation of church and state. They wanted to keep the country free of a national church, not to hide in shame, the overwhelming majority's faith in Christianity. They were not troubled by Christmas trees, or nativity scenes, they had no vision of this debate, this I am certain. They have done their job well, and the country has benefited quite well because of their hard work, and excellent forsight. To now claim there is a lack of understanding, and that their fine document is in danger, is to totally disregard the knowledge and forsight they indeed had. They were prepared for anything, and left no loopholes, or opportunities for failure, they were extremely careful.
 

Columbusite

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Deegan said:
Once again, you're incorrect in your version of separation of church and state. They wanted to keep the country free of a national church, not to hide in shame, the overwhelming majority's faith in Christianity. They were not troubled by Christmas trees, or nativity scenes, they had no vision of this debate, this I am certain. They have done their job well, and the country has benefited quite well because of their hard work, and excellent forsight. To now claim there is a lack of understanding, and that their fine document is in danger, is to totally disregard the knowledge and forsight they indeed had. They were prepared for anything, and left no loopholes, or opportunities for failure, they were extremely careful.

Hence, why government should be neutral on religious matters. So now it's his "version" of separation of church & state that is incorrect? What happened to separation of church & state not existing at all Mr. "The cross is a universal sign of the dead"? :lol:
 

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Stace said:
You have not seen atheists and/or non Christians attacked? Which rock have you been living under? Now, I know that you cannot lump all Christians into one big group, but there are a number of them that feel people without God in their life, and/or people that have not accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, are going to Hell. Non Christians did not ask for any fight...they simply want to be accepted for who they are and what they believe in.

No one is arguing that religion is necessarily a bad thing. I didn't say anything about the Founding Fathers being upset that religion still exists....I think they would be disappointed to see the words they wrote taken so strongly out of context. They did indeed mean for there to be a separation of church and state...they realized even then that not all Americans had the same beliefs and faiths, and understood that you cannot govern a nation based upon one faith.

I think we are in danger of a theocracy, because so many right wing Christians are so opposed to the separation of church and state. We cannot have a nation considered fair and equal if we are ruled by the beliefs of one faith, and while the numbers may be slipping, the fact still remains that the majority of the country is indeed Christian, and without separation of church and state, we would indeed be ruled by Christian principles.

I have nothing against Christmas, I don't really know anyone who does...as best as I can determine, the Republicans and many Christians simply feel threatened because the rest of us recognize that there are other holidays celebrated this season and we want to include everyone, because we also recognize that no celebration is more important than another.

I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood. There were a few christian families,not many. No one got upset because there were menorahs all over on Hanukah. Or that the stores all closed at sundown on other jewish holidays. At the same time the jews didn't have a cow over their neighbors Christmas lights or Nativity scene on the lawn.It was real toleration,maybe a better word is respect !
Yes back in the bad old says when there was prayer in school and readings from he Bible.
I have never heard a minister or priest advocate that Christianisty should be the official state church of the USA ,never.This theocracy nonesense is more liberal bogey man stories.
 

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Columbusite said:
Hence, why government should be neutral on religious matters. So now it's his "version" of separation of church & state that is incorrect? What happened to separation of church & state not existing at all Mr. "The cross is a universal sign of the dead"? :lol:

I am not surprised that you folks have been indoctrinated in to this belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long, that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words can be found no where in our Constitution, even as you continue to believe it so. I am more then willing to have this debate, and I have repeated myself enough on this matter, some will always claim another interpretation.
 

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Deegan said:
Well he did take the time obviously, just as you did. He has seen the outrage, and utter disgust that his, and his groups actions and words have created. The point is to show the ridiculousness of these crusades against the symbols and practices they have targeted.

That outrage is not the fault of his group, but those peoples' ignorance of their own Constitution for which they should be ashamed of. What is ridiculous about the action being taken in Utah? What practices are being targeted? If a family member wants a cross on their loved one's tombstone that's fine. Where are they going after people who do this? They aren't, except perhaps in your wildy paranoid dreams. I didn't realize that not believing in God makes you anti-God by default. Atheists, for the most part, really don't care until it is made their business like in this case.
 

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Columbusite said:
No, dammit! We're gonna take back Christmas and rename back to what it should be: CHRIST-mas! Take that Santa! You fat red commie!

Screw that, I'm all about the fat man!!! :mrgreen:
 

Columbusite

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Deegan said:
I am not surprised that you folks have been indoctrinated in to this belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long, that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words can be found no where in our Constitution, even as you continue to believe it so. I am more then willing to have this debate, and I have repeated myself enough on this matter, some will always claim another interpretation.

Jesus F**king Christ. It doesn't need to be in there verbatim. Read the Constitution. Show me where there is no separation of church and state. The Constitution in it's own wording already does this. It doesn't have to say it in lamest terms, just to accomodate you because you aren't capable of comprehending what you are reading.
 

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Deegan said:
Once again, you're incorrect in your version of separation of church and state. They wanted to keep the country free of a national church, not to hide in shame, the overwhelming majority's faith in Christianity. They were not troubled by Christmas trees, or nativity scenes, they had no vision of this debate, this I am certain. They have done their job well, and the country has benefited quite well because of their hard work, and excellent forsight. To now claim there is a lack of understanding, and that their fine document is in danger, is to totally disregard the knowledge and forsight they indeed had. They were prepared for anything, and left no loopholes, or opportunities for failure, they were extremely careful.

I'm not saying anyone should hide their faith in "shame", I think people should be proud of whatever religion they choose to practice, however, it should not be flaunted, nor should it be used as basis for political decisions, such as, say, the abortion issue. That is the problem I see, all of these Christians are so thrilled that Bush is in office because they think his religion will influence his executive decisions, and that's just not possible...his faith, nor the faith of the members of Congress or the Supreme Court, should have no bearing on political and legal decisions.

I think the Constitution is a fine document, but there were indeed loopholes...why else would we have so many Amendments?
 

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And just to get back on the main topic of this thread, it really doesn't matter and if you're all bent out of shape over someone saying "Happy Holidays" to you, then too bad. Go ahead and get offended over nothing and whine about the "War on Christianity" if you need to satisfy your persecution complex. Talk about having to much time on your hands.
 

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Stace said:
I'm not saying anyone should hide their faith in "shame", I think people should be proud of whatever religion they choose to practice, however, it should not be flaunted, nor should it be used as basis for political decisions, such as, say, the abortion issue. That is the problem I see, all of these Christians are so thrilled that Bush is in office because they think his religion will influence his executive decisions, and that's just not possible...his faith, nor the faith of the members of Congress or the Supreme Court, should have no bearing on political and legal decisions.

I think the Constitution is a fine document, but there were indeed loopholes...why else would we have so many Amendments?

That's right. Individuals are free to practice their religion, but the government should not be doing it for them.
 

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JOHNYJ said:
I was brought up in a Jewish neighborhood. There were a few christian families,not many. No one got upset because there were menorahs all over on Hanukah. Or that the stores all closed at sundown on other jewish holidays. At the same time the jews didn't have a cow over their neighbors Christmas lights or Nativity scene on the lawn.It was real toleration,maybe a better word is respect !
Yes back in the bad old says when there was prayer in school and readings from he Bible.
I have never heard a minister or priest advocate that Christianisty should be the official state church of the USA ,never.This theocracy nonesense is more liberal bogey man stories.

Back in the old days when nobody took notice of the government's obvious violation of its own constitution. Back in the old days when there were not as many athiests and agnostic people. Back in the old days when it was an extremely rare sight to find a lawyer who didn't believe. Back in the old days.....

As far as the menorahs and christmas lights in the neighborhood... It would be extremely sad for someone to complain about thier neighbor expressing thier own faith by celebrating thier religion. The athiests who go to the extremes to complain about something like this are ignorant, but I am certain they are extremely small in size, if they exist at all.

I don't give a **** if someone decorates thier house, decorates and or "christmas-ize" thier business, or Chanukah-ize thier business, don't care if someone tells me Merry Christmas even though im not christian, I understand they are just making an ignorant assumption and do not judge them on it, but, Any government sponsored organization or school should not recognize one religious movement individually. I disagree with accounts of teaching of Chanukah and this Kwanzaa but not talking about Christmas, or the Winter Solstice for that matter. Pagan beliefs have been overshadowed by Christmas for a very long time, you don't hear them organizing and getting all pissed off, not like it matters to many because they are evil pagans who will burn in hell anyways.. .right Christians? I also disagree that colors red and green are banned from some schools during this time of the year.

At the same time, I disagree that people are complaining about the break students get from school during this time of the year is considered Winter Break, how people demand that it be called Christmas Break... ... Are christians so filled with the "More holy than thou" attitude that they think they are the only ones who deserve celebration?
 

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Columbusite said:
Jesus F**king Christ. It doesn't need to be in there verbatim. Read the Constitution. Show me where there is no separation of church and state. The Constitution in it's own wording already does this. It doesn't have to say it in lamest terms, just to accomodate you because you aren't capable of comprehending what you are reading.

I have read it, and it's not wide open for interpretation, as you obviously see it. Show me where it says we should not have nativity scenes in public, please show me this. Show me where it says we should not celebrate Christmas in public. Finally, show me the link between church and state in all of this, this should be interesting.
 

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Deegan said:
I am not surprised that you folks have been indoctrinated in to this belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long, that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words can be found no where in our Constitution, even as you continue to believe it so. I am more then willing to have this debate, and I have repeated myself enough on this matter, some will always claim another interpretation.

Just because it doesn't SPECIFICALLY say "separation of church and state" (which is more than three words), doesn't mean that's not what it says.


Thomas Jefferson:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Ok, so that's not the wording from the Constitution, but Thomas Jefferson was still the author.

And sir, plagiarism is a violation of this site's user agreement.

8. Copyrighted Material - All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work.
Please do not post entire articles. Proper format is to paraphrase the contents of an article and/or post relevant excerpts and then link to the rest. Best bet is to always reference the original source.
Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107 http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/ch_state.html

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words appear nowhere in the Constitution.
 

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Caine said:
The athiests who go to the extremes to complain about something like this are ignorant, but I am certain they are extremely small in size, if they exist at all.

That's the thing. I really don't think they do exist (maybe there's 10 of them?). I know a good number of Atheists and they don't get bent out of shape over this. It's just a ficticious evil Atheist boogeyman trying to force Atheism on them and take away baby Jesus. They wish Atheists were against them so they can be presecuted (the Bible says only real Chriatians will be persecuted) and therefore, "know" they are following the correct interpretation of the Bible all while fighting the epic battle of good vs evil.
 

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Deegan said:
I have read it, and it's not wide open for interpretation, as you obviously see it. Show me where it says we should not have nativity scenes in public, please show me this. Show me where it says we should not celebrate Christmas in public. Finally, show me the link between church and state in all of this, this should be interesting.

I am only going to say this once.....because its obvious that you stupid jackassed retarded moronic right wing christians fail to realize the issue about the seperation of church and state, and specifically this thing about nativity.

THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE COVERS PUBLIC DISPLAYS OF RELIGION ON G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T PROPERTY

I say again...

G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T

You dumb ass righties try to make people think that the "godless" (dumb assumption, just because someone sticks up for our constitution) left is trying to ban religion from the public. The SCHOOL IS A PART OF G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-TG-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-TG-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-TG-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-TG-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-TG-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T

And thus... should not display religious symbols or have prayer, readings from the bible/Torah/koran, or even force people to stand and say the pledge when it contains a reference to our nation being under God, when some students may be athiests and do not believe this to be true, OR, if your Jewish, you shouldn't be pledging allegiance to a flag anyways because it goes against the Torah's teachings of Idoltry. Which is one of the many aspects of the bible that Christians forget about when they worship the cross.
 

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Stace said:
Just because it doesn't SPECIFICALLY say "separation of church and state" (which is more than three words), doesn't mean that's not what it says.




Ok, so that's not the wording from the Constitution, but Thomas Jefferson was still the author.

And sir, plagiarism is a violation of this site's user agreement.

Would you care to explain yourself?
 

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Deegan said:
I have read it, and it's not wide open for interpretation, as you obviously see it. Show me where it says we should not have nativity scenes in public, please show me this. Show me where it says we should not celebrate Christmas in public. Finally, show me the link between church and state in all of this, this should be interesting.

Who said it was wide open for interpretation? I'm sure you could argue somethings as being open to interpretation (within limits), but there is not much wiggle room here. I already explained why the Constitution is God-free. I never said nativity scenes can't be shown in public nor did I ever say Christmas shouldn't be celebrated in public. People are free to practice freedom of religion, but the the government may not. Anything regarding the establishment of religion is basically off limits to the government. The government can't endorse religion so compromise must be made, which is why government Christmas displays may have Santa, but no Jesus. If you want a religious nativity scene go to any number of churches which are free to be biased in matters of religion.
 

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Well, I did explain it already, but here we go again.

This is what you posted:

Deegan said:
I am not surprised that you folks have been indoctrinated in to this belief, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long, that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words can be found no where in our Constitution, even as you continue to believe it so. I am more then willing to have this debate, and I have repeated myself enough on this matter, some will always claim another interpretation.

This is what it says in the user agreement for debatepolitics.com:

8. Copyrighted Material - All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work.
Please do not post entire articles. Proper format is to paraphrase the contents of an article and/or post relevant excerpts and then link to the rest. Best bet is to always reference the original source.
Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107 http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

And I found the following when I did a Yahoo! search on "separation of church and state Constitution":


http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/ch_state.html

The phrase "Separation of Church and State" has been bandied about for so long that 67% of all Americans believe that it is actually in the Constitution. In fact, those three words appear nowhere in the Constitution.

Hmmm....looks to be verbatim what you posted, aside from your introduction of "I am not surprised that you folks have been indoctrinated in to this belief", and I'm pretty sure that website wasn't established within the past half hour or so.
 

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Columbusite said:
Who said it was wide open for interpretation? I'm sure you could argue somethings as being open to interpretation (within limits), but there is not much wiggle room here. I already explained why the Constitution is God-free. I never said nativity scenes can't be shown in public nor did I ever say Christmas shouldn't be celebrated in public. People are free to practice freedom of religion, but the the government may not. Anything regarding the establishment of religion is basically off limits to the government. The government can't endorse religion so compromise must be made, which is why government Christmas displays may have Santa, but no Jesus. If you want a religious nativity scene go to any number of churches which are free to be biased in matters of religion.

Well it sounds as if we are in agreement then, I have never asked that the government endorse Christmas, but they have in a way, and I am fine with that. They made Christmas a federal holiday, and that obviously includes everything that this holiday is about.
 

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Look at what these lunatics say. And you actually agree with this, Deegan?

"It must be remembered that neutrality is impossible. Some authority, whether it be God or man, is used as the reference point for all enacted laws. If a political system rejects one authority, it adopts another. If a biblical moral system is not being legislated, then an immoral system is being legislated. Any moral system that does not put Jesus Christ at its center, denies Christ"

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/ch_state.html
 
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