Hamas to Raze 180 Gaza houses to erect Islamic Religious center

[mbig]

Well not only did don provide one, I also gave you a link showing the video of exactly what the Guardian mentioned. It is one thing to question their analysis of a situation, but when any major news source directly references a major media figure like Beck and something he said on air it is really kind of absurd to challenge the choice of source.

1. You did not provide one.. as I said and predictably, it was the OLE Guardian Hit Piece, Completed REFUTED by head of MEMRI.
Nor did you provide anything else to substantiate your claim of MEMRI's unreliabilty.
2. Don's piece doesn't refute MEMRI merely says some arabic speakers disagree, but Carmon stood by the translation in the same segment.

I read your source man, they claim he set up an anti-Israel site because it includes pages on many Arab nations but not Israel, even though it makes sense for a site that is specifically about Arab nations.

Again, Everything Dim-Whittaker charged was answered handily by Carmon
In fact he makes Whittaker a Laughing stock.

I looked through and I am not seeing anything suggesting they favor Hamas. Don't cite an outside opinion piece either.

I can't cite an "outside opinion piece"
But you can cite Guardian on MEMRI!!
Planet Chomsky.

What indicates they don't?

Asked and answered.

 

[Demon of Light]

1. You did not provide one..

I certainly did provide the source of Glenn Beck explicitly talking about it.

2. Don's piece doesn't refute MEMRI merely says some arabic speakers disagree, but Carmon stood by the translation in the same segment.

It says CNN's Arabic translators not only disagreed, but outright said it was saying something entirely different. Of the two I am more trusting of CNN than an organization set up by Israeli intelligence officers.

Again, Everything Dim-Whittaker charged was answered handily by Carmon
In fact he makes Whittaker a Laughing stock.

I really don't care about what they said to some other article he did, and honestly the issue is with some of their translations specifically. Also the article I linked to specifically cited Glenn Beck and I provided with the exact information the article mentions.

I can't cite an "outside opinion piece"
But you can cite Guardian on MEMRI!!
Planet Chomsky.

Two things:

1. An outside opinion piece would mean something publiched by aljazeera but not done by aljazeera, which is a pretty important distinction when talking aljazeera's alleged bias.
2. I linked to a Guardian article citing Glenn Beck then of CNN.

Asked and answered.

All I can find is you talking about there not being a unified Palestine government. That is not an answer. Technically Hamas remains the head of the legally-elected Palestinian government.

 

[Shayah]

Technically Hamas remains the head of the legally-elected Palestinian government.

Abbas was accorded the PM position via the power-sharing formula worked out by the Palestinians prior to the election. Hamas sundered its claim to democratic legitimacy by staging a bloody coup in their stronghold of Gaza. The UN and the international community including the Arab League recognize Abbas/PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

 

[Laila]

I see little difference between Israel knocking down houses and Hamas doing the destroying.

I'd love to see the ICommunity go as nuts as they do to Israel but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Demon of Light]

Abbas was accorded the PM position via the power-sharing formula worked out by the Palestinians prior to the election. Hamas sundered its claim to democratic legitimacy by staging a bloody coup in their stronghold of Gaza.

What on Earth are you talking about? You have everything backwards. After Hamas won the elections they took the position of Prime Minister as was their right. The U.S. and Israel were pissed and so they began building up Fatah to seize power away from Hamas and Hamas responded.

The UN and the international community including the Arab League recognize Abbas/PLO as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

Of course they do, because even though Hamas is in charge by right no one wants to recognize the democratic result.

 

[Shayah]

What on Earth are you talking about? You have everything backwards. After Hamas won the elections they took the position of Prime Minister as was their right. The U.S. and Israel were pissed and so they began building up Fatah to seize power away from Hamas and Hamas responded.

Haniyeh resigned as PM on February 15, 2007. Under the Unity Government Accord which was signed by both the PLO and Hamas and implemented on March 18, Haniyeh regained the PM position and Abbas was appointed President. In concordance with the Hamas coup in early June of 2007, President Abbas sacked PM Haniyeh and dissolved the government on June 14, 2007. A new cabinet was sworn in on June 17. The new Palestinian government of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and President Mahmoud Abbas was officially recognized by the United Nations, the Arab League, the European Union, and the United States as the legitimate government of Palestine.

Of course they do, because even though Hamas is in charge by right no one wants to recognize the democratic result.

Correction, no one will recognize an attempt to seize total power with brute force.

 

[Demon of Light]

Haniyeh resigned as PM on February 15, 2007. Under the Unity Government Accord which was signed by both the PLO and Hamas and implemented on March 18, Haniyeh regained the PM position and Abbas was appointed President. In concordance with the Hamas coup in early June of 2007, President Abbas sacked PM Haniyeh and dissolved the government on June 14, 2007. A new cabinet was sworn in on June 17. The new Palestinian government of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and President Mahmoud Abbas was officially recognized by the United Nations, the Arab League, the European Union, and the United States as the legitimate government of Palestine.

Abbas was being armed by Israel and otherwise aided by the West specifically to take out Hamas. Hamas itself was engaged in constant fighting with Fatah forces and eventually simply succeeded in defeating them. It was no coup, but the expulsion of a hostile force. What Fatah did, however, was the definition of a coup. For all legal purposes Haniyeh is the Prime Minister. The fact the rest of the world and Fatah do not care about the laws of the Palestinian government is quite meaningless.

Correction, no one will recognize an attempt to seize total power with brute force.

Hamas won the election and it has held the position of Prime Minister ever since. Nothing Fatah has done changes the de jure situation. Hamas did not seek to remove the government, and only seized control as a result of a conflict against forces that were being used to attack Hamas.

 

[Degreez]

Haniyeh resigned as PM on February 15, 2007. Under the Unity Government Accord which was signed by both the PLO and Hamas and implemented on March 18, Haniyeh regained the PM position and Abbas was appointed President. In concordance with the Hamas coup in early June of 2007, President Abbas sacked PM Haniyeh and dissolved the government on June 14, 2007. A new cabinet was sworn in on June 17. The new Palestinian government of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and President Mahmoud Abbas was officially recognized by the United Nations, the Arab League, the European Union, and the United States as the legitimate government of Palestine.

Except that under Palestinian Basic Law, the President cannot appoint a Prime Minister without the approval of the Palestinian Legislative Council. Until a new Prime Minister is approved by the Palestinian parliament, the outgoing Prime Minister (Ismail Haniyeh) is still the head of the government of Palestine.

 

[Shayah]

Except that under Palestinian Basic Law, the President cannot appoint a Prime Minister without the approval of the Palestinian Legislative Council. Until a new Prime Minister is approved by the Palestinian parliament, the outgoing Prime Minister (Ismail Haniyeh) is still the head of the government of Palestine.

You can tout Palestinian legalities until the cows come home. The political reality is that most of the world recognizes the Abbas government as the legitimate government of Palestine.

 

[Demon of Light]

You can tout Palestinian legalities until the cows come home. The political reality is that most of the world recognizes the Abbas government as the legitimate government of Palestine.

The question here is about the legal authority of the Hamas government with respect to government property. As it remains the legal government then it is clearly within rights. Hamas launched no coup, though Fatah did. The fact this goes unresolved does not diminish the de jure authority of the Hamas-led government.

 

[Shayah]

Hamas launched no coup, though Fatah did.

A simple Google Search puts your propaganda on the ash heap...

Hamas coup - Google Search

 

[Demon of Light]

A simple Google Search puts your propaganda on the ash heap...

Hamas coup - Google Search

Ignoring the fact some of the initial results are explicitly saying it is not a coup and using Google search results as evidence is ridiculous, most of the sources claiming a coup are quoting officials from Fatah, the U.S., and any other number of countries and groups opposed to Hamas.

What people popularly call something, especially those with a political axe to grind, is also quite irrelevant as the term coup refers to something very clear. It requires a group to seize control of the government and remove the existing one by force. Hamas did not remove the existing government or seize control, because it already had control of the government and as such did not need to seize or remove anything. The government in control seized an agency of the government subordinate to it for fighting against it.

 

[Degreez]

You can tout Palestinian legalities until the cows come home. The political reality is that most of the world recognizes the Abbas government as the legitimate government of Palestine.

The political reality is that the current Prime Minister is, LEGALLY, Ismail Haniyeh.

 

[Shayah]

The political reality is that the current Prime Minister is, LEGALLY, Ismail Haniyeh.

The international geopolitical reality (UN/EU/US/Arab League) is quite different. When are the next elections Degreez? Seems that Hamas doesn't want any more elections and poll results spell out why.

A Palestinian poll conducted last month...

<snip>

- Perception that compared to the Haniyeh government, the Fayyad government is the legitimate one increases, with 27% indicating that the Haniyeh government is the legitimate one while 31% say the Fayyad government is the legitimate one; and 10% say both governments are legitimate and 27% say both are illegitimate. Last March, 28% said Haniyeh’s is the legitimate one and only 26% said Fayyad’s is the legitimate one. With regard to Abbas, now that his term as president has ended, 48% say he lost his legitimacy while 46% say he did not lose it.

- If new presidential elections are held today, Abbas would receive the vote of 54% and Haniyeh 39% of the vote of those participating while 7% say they are undecided.

- If new legislative elections are held today with the participation of all factions, 71% say they would participate in such elections. Of those who would participate, 45% say they would vote for Fateh and 26% say they would vote for Hamas, 12% would vote for all other third parties combined, and 18% are undecided.

- Hamas’s problem with the public remains unchanged as many believe it brings about siege and contribute to the split between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip while the public tends to believe that Fateh contributes to the lifting of the siege and the ending of the spilt.

</snip>

PSR Poll No. (36) - Press release

 

[Shayah]

Ignoring the fact some of the initial results are explicitly saying it is not a coup and using Google search results as evidence is ridiculous, most of the sources claiming a coup are quoting officials from Fatah, the U.S., and any other number of countries and groups opposed to Hamas.

What people popularly call something, especially those with a political axe to grind, is also quite irrelevant as the term coup refers to something very clear. It requires a group to seize control of the government and remove the existing one by force. Hamas did not remove the existing government or seize control, because it already had control of the government and as such did not need to seize or remove anything. The government in control seized an agency of the government subordinate to it for fighting against it.

Fail. The world viewed it as a Hamas coup.

 

[donsutherland1]

Fail. The world viewed it as a Hamas coup.

The world rightly viewed the event as a coup. Under Article 45 of Palestinian Basic Law, the President of the Palestinian National Authority (Mahmoud Abbas) has the authority to dismiss and appoint Prime Ministers. Article 45 declares:

The President of the National Authority shall appoint the Prime Minister and authorize the latter to constitute his government. The President shall have the right to dismiss the Prime Minister or to accept his resignation and to request him to convene the Council of Ministers.

 

[Degreez]

The world rightly viewed the event as a coup. Under Article 45 of Palestinian Basic Law, the President of the Palestinian National Authority (Mahmoud Abbas) has the authority to dismiss and appoint Prime Ministers. Article 45 declares:

The President of the National Authority shall appoint the Prime Minister and authorize the latter to constitute his government. The President shall have the right to dismiss the Prime Minister or to accept his resignation and to request him to convene the Council of Ministers.

And under that same law, the authority to approve the President's nomination for Prime Minister resides with the Palestinian Legislative Council.

 

[Demon of Light]

Ok Let's be clear on what exactly happened. The Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority is Ismail Haniyeh and he was chosen in accordance with the elections the world backed as well as the Constitution Fatah wrote. Under said constitution the Council of Ministers, headed by the Prime Minister, is responsible for internal security. In other words, the Preventive Security Service was under the authority of the Hamas-lead government yet not only did they not recognize that authority they actively sought to subvert it by cracking down on members of Hamas.

Hamas forces seizing control of the Preventive Security Service headquarters in Gaza is the closest things to seizing any part of government by force and it was in response to that part of government carrying out violence against the ruling party. If the FBI went rogue taking control of its headquarters for the U.S. government would be restoration of legal authority, not an illegal seizure of power, let alone a seizure and removal of the entire government. What Hamas did was in no sense a coup. Claims otherwise are propaganda meant to delegitimize Hamas.

Fatah responded to this by replacing Haniyeh with Fayyad. Under no part of Palestine's Constitution is this allowed even in a state of emergency as it is a constitutional requirement for any proposed replacement to be approved by the legislature and until then for the previous Prime Minister to continue exercising his or her duties. Fatah's actions were by definition a coup as they had no basis in Palestinian law and constituted the removal of the legal government by illegal force.

Just out of curiosity does anyone here not consider what happened in Honduras last year a coup?

 

[Vader]

Has anybody noticed that the Palestinians are not crying out against this? Has anybody noticed the hypocrites in the muslim world are not condeming the actions of Hamas?

 

[Vader]

Ok Let's be clear on what exactly happened. The Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority is Ismail Haniyeh and he was chosen in accordance with the elections the world backed as well as the Constitution Fatah wrote. Under said constitution the Council of Ministers, headed by the Prime Minister, is responsible for internal security. In other words, the Preventive Security Service was under the authority of the Hamas-lead government yet not only did they not recognize that authority they actively sought to subvert it by cracking down on members of Hamas.

Hamas forces seizing control of the Preventive Security Service headquarters in Gaza is the closest things to seizing any part of government by force and it was in response to that part of government carrying out violence against the ruling party. If the FBI went rogue taking control of its headquarters for the U.S. government would be restoration of legal authority, not an illegal seizure of power, let alone a seizure and removal of the entire government. What Hamas did was in no sense a coup. Claims otherwise are propaganda meant to delegitimize Hamas.

Fatah responded to this by replacing Haniyeh with Fayyad. Under no part of Palestine's Constitution is this allowed even in a state of emergency as it is a constitutional requirement for any proposed replacement to be approved by the legislature and until then for the previous Prime Minister to continue exercising his or her duties. Fatah's actions were by definition a coup as they had no basis in Palestinian law and constituted the removal of the legal government by illegal force.

Just out of curiosity does anyone here not consider what happened in Honduras last year a coup?

Ismael Haniyeh is a hamas terrorist. He is NOT a legitimate leader. Haniyeh needs a dirt nap.

 

[Demon of Light]

Ismael Haniyeh is a hamas terrorist. He is NOT a legitimate leader. Haniyeh needs a dirt nap.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas in elections we not only backed but hailed as free and fair so the notion that Haniyeh is not a legitimate leader kind of suggests you either disagree with the system that brought him to power or think it should only bring certain people to power.

 

[donsutherland1]

And under that same law, the authority to approve the President's nomination for Prime Minister resides with the Palestinian Legislative Council.

Except that the President has emergency powers under Article 110. The President issued the appropriate emergency decree.

What was not envisioned in the Basic Law was what would happen if a single party that commanded a plurality or majority of the legislature conducted a violent armed coup to seize control of a section of the territory administered by the Palestinian government. If Hamas had issues with the Palestinian government, it could have worked through the legislative process to declare "no confidence." But that's not what happened in the Gaza Strip. Instead, it undertook an extraconstitutional coup, which violated Articles 6 and 49, which deal respectively with the rule of law and legislators' oath to uphold the law. Ordinarily, the Palestinian High Constitutional Court would address the dispute. However, the laws necessary to create such a court were not completed prior to the coup. At the same time, Hamas has indicated that it would not accept the high court's decision.

In sum, Hamas acted to seize control of the Gaza Strip via means not permitted in the Palestinian constitution. It has blocked elections. It has also indicated that it would not respect any judgment by the Palestinian High Court. Hence, it is clear that Hamas has not only acted beyond the scope of the Palestinian constitution, but also expressly disavowed the Palestinian constitution's relevant provisions. Therefore, Hamas is in no position to cite the Palestinian consitution with respect to its coup, President Abbas' tenure, and Prime Minister Fayyad's tenure.

 

[donsutherland1]

The Palestinian people elected Hamas in elections we not only backed but hailed as free and fair so the notion that Haniyeh is not a legitimate leader kind of suggests you either disagree with the system that brought him to power or think it should only bring certain people to power.

There is no controversy with the outcome of the January 2006 electoral results. The issue arises with respect to the June 2007 coup under which Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip via force of arms, not through the Palestinian constitution's provisions.

 

[Gardener]

The Palestinian people elected Hamas in elections we not only backed but hailed as free and fair so the notion that Haniyeh is not a legitimate leader kind of suggests you either disagree with the system that brought him to power or think it should only bring certain people to power.

and having been elected, they then went on a rampage, killing their opposition in execution style killings.

I do not know where and when you studied civics, and I realize by your many postings that indicate such that you are a big supporter of Hamas, but that isn't exactly how actual democracy is supposed to work.

 

[Shayah]

Except that the President has emergency powers under Article 110. The President issued the appropriate emergency decree.

What was not envisioned in the Basic Law was what would happen if a single party that commanded a plurality or majority of the legislature conducted a violent armed coup to seize control of a section of the territory administered by the Palestinian government. If Hamas had issues with the Palestinian government, it could have worked through the legislative process to declare "no confidence." But that's not what happened in the Gaza Strip. Instead, it undertook an extraconstitutional coup, which violated Articles 6 and 49, which deal respectively with the rule of law and legislators' oath to uphold the law. Ordinarily, the Palestinian High Constitutional Court would address the dispute. However, the laws necessary to create such a court were not completed prior to the coup. At the same time, Hamas has indicated that it would not accept the high court's decision.

In sum, Hamas acted to seize control of the Gaza Strip via means not permitted in the Palestinian constitution. It has blocked elections. It has also indicated that it would not respect any judgment by the Palestinian High Court. Hence, it is clear that Hamas has not only acted beyond the scope of the Palestinian constitution, but also expressly disavowed the Palestinian constitution's relevant provisions. Therefore, Hamas is in no position to cite the Palestinian consitution with respect to its coup, President Abbas' tenure, and Prime Minister Fayyad's tenure.

:applaud

Don's post puts a wooden stake in the "Hamas is the legitimate government" corpse.