Guns = Freedom

[Guy Incognito]

That's a slippery, slippery slope.

Yes, but in which direction?

 

[Nymphetamine]

Yes, but in which direction?

Downhill.
qwerty

 

[Goshin]

There are several vital ingredients to freedom, IMO.

We don't really need to reinvent the wheel. The Founders knew what those ingredients were.

Freedom of speech, of the press; the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition for redress of grievances; freedom of religion and of association.

The right of the people to be sufficiently well-armed to be able to effectively resist government attempts at tyranny... as well as to defend themselves against common criminality and animals that fail to appreciate that we are the dominant species.

The list goes on from there, but you all know it. :mrgreen:

Guns are a very important component, but only one of several.

 

[TurtleDude]

Mustard gas, as it is heavier than air.

nah, a few pounds of calcium carbide

add water

wait 5 minutes

insert 20 feet of cannon fuse

 

[deltabtry]

Washington DC and Chicago also.

Chicago and D.C. have the most strict gun laws in this country.

 

[Deuce]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Just a joke. You can't literally give a cite for a feeling, but you can certainly explain why you feel that way. In fact, you should to do that in a debate.

Hi, you must be new here.

 

[Gremlin]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Arms are akin to security, not necessarily freedom.
They are the best tools to secure freedom, but they are also the best tools to stamp it out.

For instance, no one here will agree that an armed rebellion by a city or state has a prayer to taking on the full might of the US military would guarantee freedom.
Now if this armed rebellion was targeted at DC, Wall Street and the other heads of the hydra, freedom could, not would, could be secured.

Dont take this wrong way, im for the rule of law and wish to see our rogue government and the criminal elements of the investment class brought to justice.... but what i am saying is there is a line in the sand for most everyone. Those who will never have a line in the sand will run into the pits to be shot and powdered with lime.

 

[hazlnut]

A link would be nice...

And is this guns per capita?

And how to they quantify 'freedom'?

The example of civil rights workers having guns to protect themselves--this seem purely anecdotal and drawing an illogical conclusion.

What percentage of civil rights workers carried guns? And how many times, approximately, did this help them further the cause?
And do you count the state and federal law enforcement + federal troops enforcing federal law as 'gun carriers'?
And how do you prove this was the key factor in the success of the movement? i.e. how does X number of workers with guns = y amount of freedom.

There are some libertarians around here that believe it's the Fed's threat of guns (to put you in jail) for tax evasion that shows a clear breach of freedom.

Again, how do you quantify freedom?
e.g. +1 free speech, -10 eminent domain, -2 airport screening, +5 free press...

 

[TurtleDude]

A link would be nice...

And is this guns per capita?

And how to they quantify 'freedom'?

The example of civil rights workers having guns to protect themselves--this seem purely anecdotal and drawing an illogical conclusion.

What percentage of civil rights workers carried guns? And how many times, approximately, did this help them further the cause?
And do you count the state and federal law enforcement + federal troops enforcing federal law as 'gun carriers'?
And how do you prove this was the key factor in the success of the movement? i.e. how does X number of workers with guns = y amount of freedom.

There are some libertarians around here that believe it's the Fed's threat of guns (to put you in jail) for tax evasion that shows a clear breach of freedom.

Again, how do you quantify freedom?
e.g. +1 free speech, -10 eminent domain, -2 airport screening, +5 free press...

and your point is?

 

[ricksfolly]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

It appears that, in a sense, guns really do equal freedom.

Carrying a gun is paranoia, pure and simple. If someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun, he'll probably do it in a way you least expect, when your gun is still in your pocket. So carrying a gun has no benefit unless he comes at you head on with a knife. If you really want to be safe, don't make deadly enemies, and don't hang around crime areas at night.

ricksfolly

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Carrying a gun is paranoia, pure and simple. If someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun, he'll probably do it in a way you least expect, when your gun is still in your pocket. So carrying a gun has no benefit unless he comes at you head on with a knife. If you really want to be safe, don't make deadly enemies, and don't hang around crime areas at night.

ricksfolly

Believe it or not, many muggers and other criminals don't immediately go in for the kill. Some have even been known to stray outside of the narrow borders of Highcrimeville.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Carrying a gun is paranoia, pure and simple. If someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun, he'll probably do it in a way you least expect, when your gun is still in your pocket. So carrying a gun has no benefit unless he comes at you head on with a knife. If you really want to be safe, don't make deadly enemies, and don't hang around crime areas at night.

ricksfolly

You apparenlty have very little knowledge about the subject of arms and self defense. IF someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun

well you are still better off than if someone is out to kill you and you don't carry a gun..

best scenario, he thinks you don't carry a gun and you do

but see many murders come from robberies, muggings etc. Very few people who aren't criminals are "whacked"

since criminals cannot legally carry we are talking about honest people who can carry with a license. since honest people normally don't have hit men after them, it makes sense for them to carry a gun

I don't usually but in NY many years ago I did

good thing becaues two guys figured I was a deliveryman they were planning on robbing. I didn't have the pizza they ordered, I had a smith and wesson. Good luck for me-real bad luck for one of them

 

[Goobieman]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Carrying a gun is paranoia, pure and simple.

The police carry guns. Who is more likely to be accosted by a criminal -- you or a police officer. Are they paranoid too?

If someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun, he'll probably do it in a way you least expect, when your gun is still in your pocket.

That you can conceive of a time when a concealed gun maynot help you does not in any way invalidate all the (fare more realistic) scenarios where it will.

So carrying a gun has no benefit unless he comes at you head on with a knife.

Or in any of about a million other scenarios.

 

[hazlnut]

and your point is?

Without a link, the OP only gave a limited amount of information about how the studies came to the their conclusion.

I asked the obvious questions about the study (guns per capita) and tried to figure out how these studies might of quantified (measured) freedom.

Also, the example of the civil rights workers being armed felt very thin -- as I do not believe this was the norm and that example doesn't account for the inverse, that is, for example, the local police departments that were complicit in crimes against blacks. In those cases the armed police were taking away freedom.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Without a link, the OP only gave a limited amount of information about how the studies came to the their conclusion.

I asked the obvious questions about the study (guns per capita) and tried to figure out how these studies might of quantified (measured) freedom.

Also, the example of the civil rights workers being armed felt very thin -- as I do not believe this was the norm and that example doesn't account for the inverse, that is, for example, the local police departments that were complicit in crimes against blacks. In those cases the armed police were taking away freedom.

The study is linked in post #5

 

[Wiseone]

Well, the study found that "guns in the wrong hands reduce freedom."

I hope no research grant money was wasted on coming to this groundbreaking conclusion

 

[Goshin]

Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Carrying a gun is paranoia, pure and simple. If someone is out to shoot you and he knows you carry a gun, he'll probably do it in a way you least expect, when your gun is still in your pocket. So carrying a gun has no benefit unless he comes at you head on with a knife. If you really want to be safe, don't make deadly enemies, and don't hang around crime areas at night.

ricksfolly

You speak from ignorance, I regret to say.

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this, maybe I should save it so I can cut'n'paste.

I'm an ex-cop who teaching self-protection and defensive handgunning to private citizens, as a side business.

One of the first things I teach is that simply carrying a gun is not a panacea. I place a very heavy emphasis on awareness, knowing what to watch out for, staying "ahead of the curve" and responding appropriately and in a timely manner, and that without these attributes no weapon or training will protect you from attack.
The vast majority of self-protection is based on preventative measures (ie locking doors, having alarms), and awareness/avoidance techniques (ie I see four suspicious persons loitering in the stairwell, so I don't go that way.)

Having said that, there are situations where, if you do not have a firearm and the capacity to use it, you will almost certainly be screwed. There are many other situations where the presence of a firearm can de-escalate a situation and prevent it from turning violent, such as the time two street criminals attempted to pin me between them. I moved to keep them both in front of me and took a grip on my weapon; they saw these actions and quickly moved away from me, short-circuiting their intended attack.

A gun is a tool, not a magic wand... but there are times when nothing else will remotely serve.

Paranoia? Hardly. I know several people who might have been killed had they not been armed. I know others who might have survived a criminal assault if they HAD been.

Carrying a gun is a choice, and a right, and also entails a responsibility that most people who carry I know take very seriously.

 

[ricksfolly]

keep saying that til you believe it

I was carving up gun haters when it wasn't cool

the fact is, the reasons behind the gun haters are all nefarious

You may get the gullible ones to believe you're a cool dude, but not the ones who know the real facts, not the fiction they write in the NRA magazines.

ricksfolly

 

[Goshin]

You may get the gullible ones to believe you're a cool dude, but not the ones who know the real facts, not the fiction they write in the NRA magazines.

ricksfolly

Really? Perhaps you prefer info obtained from Handgun Control Inc, and consider it unbiased. :mrgreen:

I notice you have not responded to my post, which exposes your ignorance on the subject of crime and armed defense.

Come sir, I have facts and figures galore, sources beyond counting, and extensive personal experience. Take up the gauntlet and present your arguments; I will destroy them one by one with the artillery of truth. :mrgreen:

 

[Goshin]

Well if the reply is going to take all day, I have to run to the bank and the post office....

:mrgreen:

 

[ricksfolly]

Really? Perhaps you prefer info obtained from Handgun Control Inc, and consider it unbiased. :mrgreen:

I notice you have not responded to my post, which exposes your ignorance on the subject of crime and armed defense.

Come sir, I have facts and figures galore, sources beyond counting, and extensive personal experience. Take up the gauntlet and present your arguments; I will destroy them one by one with the artillery of truth. :mrgreen:

Live is really not the dramatic movie you and your NRA buddies seem to think it is.

I lived and boozed in LA 40 years and neither I, nor my drinking buddies, friends, and relatives, ever needed a gun to protect ourselves. Disagreements, yes, but only rare fist fights... never guns.

ricksfolly

 

[Goobieman]

I lived and boozed in LA 40 years and neither I, nor my drinking buddies, friends, and relatives, ever needed a gun to protect ourselves. Disagreements, yes, but only rare fist fights... never guns.

Is this one of your "facts" that is supposed to shoot down all the arguments for having/carrying a gun?

 

[RightinNYC]

Live is really not the dramatic movie you and your NRA buddies seem to think it is.

I lived and boozed in LA 40 years and neither I, nor my drinking buddies, friends, and relatives, ever needed a gun to protect ourselves. Disagreements, yes, but only rare fist fights... never guns.

ricksfolly

Oh, well if you never needed it, then there's no way that anyone else could have ever needed it, cause that's how statistics work.

 

[Goobieman]

Oh, well if you never needed it, then there's no way that anyone else could have ever needed it, cause that's how statistics work.

I'm pretty sure he'd take exception to the argument that because you needed a gun, everyone needs a gun.
He'd also not see the irony.

 

[Goshin]

Live is really not the dramatic movie you and your NRA buddies seem to think it is.

I lived and boozed in LA 40 years and neither I, nor my drinking buddies, friends, and relatives, ever needed a gun to protect ourselves. Disagreements, yes, but only rare fist fights... never guns.

ricksfolly

Well, after all the waiting that wasn't much of a post.

Some reasonable number of people are fortunate enough to make it through life and never be targeted by an armed criminal or nutjob. A much smaller number are fortunate enough to survive an attack, despite being unprepared. This is no way means that being armed has no utility.

My Dad lived to be 79. He carried a gun quite regularly. I only know of one occasion when he actually needed it, when a man persistently threatened to kill him in what was probably a case of mistaken identity. Display of his firearm ended the confrontation with no shots fired.

Hardly some "dramatic movie".

Anecdotes, at least honest ones, can be useful for examining the details of actual situations that happen in real life, but they don't prove anything statistically.