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Guns = Freedom

I find it disturbing that you think this addresses the problem of the OP's study's obvious bias.



FWIW I was once pro-gun control. Then I thought about it :)



I didn't read the study. I already know what the truth is.

the study might be flawed

the conclusions are generally accurate.

I will be back in a few

I have declared a fatwah against the raccoons in my horse barn and my son and I are off to wage holy Jihad against the infidels that urinate on the horse feed and crap in their bedding
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

This is interesting. Could you post some more quotes as I was unable to download the paper.

Does it talk about homicide rates?

A while back I made a graph of violent crime vs gun ownership for US states. There was no correlation

A commenter in another thread spurred me to look into stats on gun ownership vs crime in the US. Here's what I came up with

crimevguns.png


Virtually no correlation, positive or negative

Stats are from here and here

In general, I don't think I've ever seen a statistic that correlates well with gun ownership. The closest is this study's economic success vs gun ownership graph, and I'd assume that economic success correlates with ownership of pretty much anything
 
The abstract explains acknowledged discrepancies within the studies

Abstract said:
There are 59 nations for which data about per capita gun ownership are available. This Article examines the relationship between gun density and several measures of freedom and prosperity: the Freedom House ratings of political rights and civil liberty, the Transparency International Perceived Corruption Index, the World Bank Purchasing Power Parity ratings, and the Heritage Foundation Index of Economic Freedom. The data suggest that the relationships between gun ownership rates and these other measures are complex. The data show that (although exceptions can be found) the nations with the highest rates of gun ownership tend to have greater political and civil freedom, greater economic freedom and prosperity, and much less corruption than other nations. The relationship only exists for high-ownership countries. Countries with medium rates of gun density generally scored no better or worse than countries with the lowest levels of per capita gun ownership.

It is a correlative study, not a causation study. They simply took a bunch of data and made a suggestion, while acknowledging the flaws in the suggestion.

Also, this is not a peer reviewed study so their research methodology has not been critiqued by a journal whatsoever.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

This is interesting. Could you post some more quotes as I was unable to download the paper.

Does it talk about homicide rates?

Here ya go....


EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES


More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.


<snip>

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**


The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population)
.


Concealed carry in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Criminals generally want easy targets. Having a gun makes you a harder target. When you're in a population which carries, you are safer even if you don't carry a gun yourself, because a criminal has no way of knowing if you're carrying concealed or not and doesn't want to risk finding out the hard way.
 
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The abstract explains acknowledged discrepancies within the studies

They also devote a nice section to explaining why their gun ownership stats mean nothing. Trying to draw any kind of conclusions from this paper is an exercise in absurdity
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

I would like to point out that the reason that this is not "peer-reviewed" study is for the simple reason that no law reviews are peer reviewed, they are student-edited publications, almost without exception. If you think this makes them any less academically rigorous, I'd suggest that you have an issue with legal academia generally and not specifically with this paper.

Furthermore, if you read the paper or even the abstract-- as has been observed above-- it is clear that this study is meticulously conducted and restrained in its conclusions. It so moderate in its outcome that it is difficult to dispute its facts unless you are advancing some sort of political agenda. Personally, I'm more interested in reasonable solutions to real problems rather than petty partisan politics.

This is interesting. Could you post some more quotes as I was unable to download the paper.

Does it talk about homicide rates?

This study didn't speak to homicide rates directly, but I was able to find another paper that said, "[W]hat really distinguishes the United States from these countries is its high rate of lethal violence, most which involves guns. Our firearm murder rate is about ten times higher than the average of these three other countries, and our overall murder rate is three times higher. [...] Canada, Australia and New Zealand all have many guns, though not nearly as many handguns as the United States. The key difference is that these countries do a much better job of keeping guns out of the wrong hands."

This paper is called "The Public Health Approach to Reducing Firearm Injury and Violence," by David Hemenway and is very compelling in its argument that gun violence should be treated as a question of public health, just like a disease. I think this dovetails nicely with the study in the OP, and the clear conclusion is that guns should be kept out of the wrong hands, and freely available in the right hands.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Furthermore, if you read the paper or even the abstract-- as has been observed above-- it is clear that this study is meticulously conducted and restrained in its conclusions. It so moderate in its outcome that it is difficult to dispute its facts unless you are advancing some sort of political agenda. Personally, I'm more interested in reasonable solutions to real problems rather than petty partisan politics.

It would be nice if your conclusions were half as restrained as the study's. From this, as you now state, academic review, you conclude that this is "Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom"

screenshot20100522at921.png


Color me unimpressed
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

It would be nice if your conclusions were half as restrained as the study's. From this, as you now state, academic review, you conclude that this is "Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom"

Like I said, if you don't like the way legal academia is structured, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're free to rage against the machine as much as you like. But that's just how it is, law reviews aren't peer reviewed, and they are still legitimate academic publications whether you like them or not. I'm afraid it is I who am the unimpressed one here.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Like I said, if you don't like the way legal academia is structured, you're entitled to your opinion, and you're free to rage against the machine as much as you like. But that's just how it is, law reviews aren't peer reviewed, and they are still legitimate academic publications whether you like them or not. I'm afraid it is I who am the unimpressed one here.

I never claimed they are and haven't said a word about peer review. However, you claimed that this study is scientific proof that guns equal freedom. Feel free to back away from that claim any time, because it's ridiculous
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Feel free to back away from that claim any time, because it's ridiculous

It's a scientific study, and found a correlation between gun ownership and freedom. I don't see the problem. :yawn:
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

I though it was just an academic review. Also, as you've stated, the authors are very reserved in their conclusions. Which is good, becuase their data hardly show that "guns=freedom"

screenshot20100522at921.png
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

becuase their data hardly show that "guns=freedom"

And yet, in a sense, it shows precisely that. I encourage you to read the entirety of the OP, or perhaps even the study itself. Or you could just have an emotional reaction to the title of this thread. Whichever you prefer.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

Did you read the study? I've posted one of their graphs three times over. If you have a response to my criticisms of the study's results, I'd love to hear it.
 
Guns=killing.
No... guns are FOR killing, or the creation of a credible threat to that end.
What's wrong with that?

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives?
Absolutely, given the fact that amount of crime committed with legally-owned assault rifles and explosives approaches zero. illustrating that such ownership is not a threat to society.
 
No... guns are FOR killing, or the creation of a credible threat to that end.
What's wrong with that?


Absolutely, given the fact that amount of crime committed with legally-owned assault rifles and explosives approaches zero. illustrating that such ownership is not a threat to society.

No man didn't anyone tell you? Robbing liquor stores with some C4 is all the rage these days!

...although I see no legitimate home use for C4, come to think of it.
 
Guns=killing. Do people really want an anarchist society where everyone is armed and simply shoots anyone who offends them?

Essentially you support the death penalty for any crime. If a guy is stealing just shoot him and kill him, if he threatens you you can shoot him and kill him...

This isn't freedom and this isn't justice, it's a vigilante type of social law where everyone must live in a potentially violent community. Besides, who would stop crazy people from getting guns? What about their "rights" to bear arms?

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives? Guns do not equal freedom. Guns equal violence, a vigilante type of justice system, and a life of fear of your neighbors and their weapons.






guns don't make a community "potentially violent" and none of my neighbors fear me.... Now the criminals that prey on us might. :shrug:
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

The study also shows only rare circumstances in which guns reduce freedom, such as the Ivory Coast and the Congo, concluding that "guns in the wrong hands reduce freedom."

this statement by itself seems completely ridiculous.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom



this statement by itself seems completely ridiculous.




Why? Guns in the hands of any despotic regieme always reduce freedom.....


It's when the people are equally armed, its not as often. :prof
 
Gopher colonies.

See: Caddyshack

That was just one gopher. If you have a whole colony, you might need to upgrade to an airstrike.

Also:

Farnsworth: "So what are you doing to protect my constitutional right to bear doomsday devices?"
NRA Guy: "Well, first off, we're gonna get rid of that three day waiting period for mad scientists."
Farnsworth: "Damn straight! Today the mad scientist can't get a doomsday device, tomorrow it's the mad grad student! Where will it end?!"
NRA Guy: "Amen, brother. I don't go anywhere without my mutated anthrax. For duck huntin'."
 
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That was just one gopher. If you have a whole colony, you might need to upgrade to an airstrike.
Mustard gas, as it is heavier than air.
 
Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

You can't source an impression...

Just a joke. You can't literally give a cite for a feeling, but you can certainly explain why you feel that way. In fact, you should to do that in a debate.
 
Guns=killing. Do people really want an anarchist society where everyone is armed and simply shoots anyone who offends them?

Essentially you support the death penalty for any crime. If a guy is stealing just shoot him and kill him, if he threatens you you can shoot him and kill him...

This isn't freedom and this isn't justice, it's a vigilante type of social law where everyone must live in a potentially violent community. Besides, who would stop crazy people from getting guns? What about their "rights" to bear arms?

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives? Guns do not equal freedom. Guns equal violence, a vigilante type of justice system, and a life of fear of your neighbors and their weapons.

That's a slippery, slippery slope.
 
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