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Guns = Freedom

Guy Incognito

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Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

It's true. Countries with higher amounts of gun owners have lower levels of corruption and higher levels of liberty.

According to a comparative study of fifty-nine nation by Koppel, Moody and Nemerov, published in the Texas Review of Law and Policy, concluded that "there is a statistically significant relationship between higher per capita gun ownership and freedom from corruption, economic freedom, and economic success. [...] As a general (but not invariable) rule, countries with more guns have more economic freedom, less corruption, and more economic success. [...] [T]he data raise serious doubts about whether the gun-reducing agenda makes sense as a categorical imperative, at least if freedom ranks highly in one's hierarchy of values."

The study went on to discuss some of the ways in which "Freedom causes guns" but also ways in which "guns cause freedom," to wit: "American civil rights workers were able to protect themselves from the Ku Klux Klan because so many civil rights workers had guns." The study also shows only rare circumstances in which guns reduce freedom, such as the Ivory Coast and the Congo, concluding that "guns in the wrong hands reduce freedom."

It appears that, in a sense, guns really do equal freedom.
 
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tacomancer

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Allah = freedom
 

Deuce

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First off, I'd like a source for this "study" of yours. I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of guns in central Africa and the middle-east!

Basically, this guy is drawing a really faulty conclusion and even contradicts himself in that section you pasted.
 

Jerry

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Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

It's true. Countries with higher amounts of gun owners have lower levels of corruption and higher levels of liberty.

According to a comparative study of fifty-nine nation by Koppel, Moody and Nemerov, published in the Texas Review of Law and Policy, concluded that "there is a statistically significant relationship between higher per capita gun ownership and freedom from corruption, economic freedom, and economic success. [...] As a general (but not invariable) rule, countries with more guns have more economic freedom, less corruption, and more economic success. [...] [T]he data raise serious doubts about whether the gun-reducing agenda makes sense as a categorical imperative, at least if freedom ranks highly in one's hierarchy of values."

The study went on to discuss some of the ways in which "Freedom causes guns" but also ways in which "guns cause freedom," to wit: "American civil rights workers were able to protect themselves from the Ku Klux Klan because so many civil rights workers had guns." The study also shows only rare circumstances in which guns reduce freedom, such as the Ivory Coast and the Congo, concluding that "guns in the wrong hands reduce freedom."

It appears that, in a sense, guns really do equal freedom.

Link to study or it doesn't exist :2wave:
 

Guy Incognito

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Guy Incognito

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Basically, this guy is drawing a really faulty conclusion and even contradicts himself in that section you pasted.

Fortunately, not everybody sees the world as simply black and white. I suppose that's why we leave things to the experts. I personally wouldn't trust a study that did not recognize nuance where they found it. The fact of the matter is that the study doesn't so much contradict itself as recognize that (and this is just my take on it, mind you) that there is a positive correlation between guns in freedom in developed economies and a negative correlation in less developed economies.

So the study's not so much "contradictory" as it is moderate and even handed.
 
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Arch Enemy

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This explains why Somalia, Sudan, and Afghanistan are all very safe, secure, and uncorrupt.
 

Guy Incognito

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This explains why Somalia, Sudan, and Afghanistan are all very safe, secure, and uncorrupt.

Well, no, it explains why they are very unsafe and corrupt. I appreciate good snark as much as the next guy, but one ought to at least tailor it to what has been said in the conversation. The study says: "the top firearms quartile rates highest in all categories [of freedom], the relationship between firearms and liberty is inconsistent among the lower three quartiles."
 

TurtleDude

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First off, I'd like a source for this "study" of yours. I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of guns in central Africa and the middle-east!

Basically, this guy is drawing a really faulty conclusion and even contradicts himself in that section you pasted.

translation

gun haters categorically reject any finding that does not damn gun ownership

gun ownership terrifies statists and nanny government fans beause those who own guns are less likely to cede their rights for the vacant promise of more big brother imposed "security"

criminals and despots also hate private gun ownership since it is a prophylactic against crime and despotism.
 

TurtleDude

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This explains why Somalia, Sudan, and Afghanistan are all very safe, secure, and uncorrupt.

Link to the laws of that country supporting legal gun ownership by civilians
 

digsbe

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Guns=killing. Do people really want an anarchist society where everyone is armed and simply shoots anyone who offends them?

Essentially you support the death penalty for any crime. If a guy is stealing just shoot him and kill him, if he threatens you you can shoot him and kill him...

This isn't freedom and this isn't justice, it's a vigilante type of social law where everyone must live in a potentially violent community. Besides, who would stop crazy people from getting guns? What about their "rights" to bear arms?

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives? Guns do not equal freedom. Guns equal violence, a vigilante type of justice system, and a life of fear of your neighbors and their weapons.
 
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Deuce

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translation

gun haters categorically reject any finding that does not damn gun ownership

gun ownership terrifies statists and nanny government fans beause those who own guns are less likely to cede their rights for the vacant promise of more big brother imposed "security"

criminals and despots also hate private gun ownership since it is a prophylactic against crime and despotism.

No that's not at all what I meant but nice try.
 

Jerry

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Guns=killing.

That's correct. When used as directed and in accordance with the law, guns are for killing. That is their expressed sole purpose.

Do people really want an anarchist society where everyone is armed and simply shoots anyone who offends them?

Of course not. As your question has nothing to do with the topic at hand I invite you to open a thread on guns and social politeness.

Essentially you support the death penalty for any crime.

A narrow set of crimes, actually, such as rape, kidnapping, burglary, and similar.


If a guy is stealing just shoot him and kill him

If he's in your house, yes.

if he threatens you you can shoot him and kill him

He has to actually pose a danger to your life at that moment, which is highly circumstantial.

This isn't freedom and this isn't justice, it's a vigilante type of social law where everyone must live in a potentially violent community.

The data demonstrates that armed societies are safer than unarmed societies assuming all other variables are equal..

Besides, who would stop crazy people from getting guns?

Who stops them now?

What about their "rights" to bear arms?

A right only applies to those who meet the criteria. Being of a sound mind is one of the criteria, so a crazy person does not have the right to keep and bear.

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives?

Assault rifles, yes, explosives, no...unless they have the appropriate license for commercial explosives, but that's another issue.

Guns do not equal freedom.

Guns = freedom.

Guns equal violence, a vigilante type of justice system, and a life of fear of your neighbors and their weapons.

See my signature.
 

TurtleDude

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Guns=killing. Do people really want an anarchist society where everyone is armed and simply shoots anyone who offends them?

Essentially you support the death penalty for any crime. If a guy is stealing just shoot him and kill him, if he threatens you you can shoot him and kill him...

This isn't freedom and this isn't justice, it's a vigilante type of social law where everyone must live in a potentially violent community. Besides, who would stop crazy people from getting guns? What about their "rights" to bear arms?

Should people be allowed to have assault rifles and explosives? Guns do not equal freedom. Guns equal violence, a vigilante type of justice system, and a life of fear of your neighbors and their weapons.

this is poorly reasoned and probably signs you should stop pretending to be a feeler. Deterring someone from killing you is different than executing them. Until we have phasers that can be set on STUN the most reliable way of stopping someone from inflicting severe or fatal bodily harm upon another is to shoot them

Crazy people cannot legally own guns

assault rifles are the standard infantry weapon-yes people should be able to own them--the second amendment clearly recognizes that right

I am not afraid of honest people owning weapons. Dishonest people and criminals-by defintion break the law and will have them no matter what the law

I don't want crooks and government agents having a monopoly on the power to kill
 

TurtleDude

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Your "grossly misrepresent my opponent's stance" schtick is getting old.

I have been around many years in this area. I see patterns repeated over and over. protest all you want
 

Deuce

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I have been around many years in this area. I see patterns repeated over and over. protest all you want

It's easy to find patterns when you fabricate them in your own mind!
 

TurtleDude

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It's easy to find patterns when you fabricate them in your own mind!

keep saying that til you believe it

I was carving up gun haters when it wasn't cool

the fact is, the reasons behind the gun haters are all nefarious
 

Kernel Sanders

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I'm generally against gun control, but this study was terrible. It was published in a "journal" whose explicit purpose is conservative bias. The entire third part of the report is politicized opinon and reads like a blog posting or a post you'd find here.

As for their results, they exhibit only vague trends, and are heavily influenced by the US's outlier status. Here is their Economic freedom vs gun ownership chart with the US's datapoint removed

screenshot20100522at921.png


Forgive me if I don't think that this supports the notion that the two are related. The only part that did have a somewhat strong correlation was economic success vs gun ownership. I'm going to go ahead and guess that the correlation of economic success vs iphone ownership is much stronger, though.
 
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TurtleDude

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Have you seen the places where anti gun studies are presented? almost always from places that have a serious anti gun bias

what is funny is that many people who started off with an assumption that guns were bad or gun control were good came out on pro gun right side of the issue (Kleck, Lott). I have never seen someone who started off as a pro gun advocate issue a study that was anti gun.

my favorite one involved a Dr Kellerman who claimed a house with a gun in it was far more l ikely to involve someone being shot than a house without a gun (a truism, if there are no guns people are rarely shot).

He counted a house with a gun one in which someone broke into the house while carrying a weapon and shooting the unarmed home owner
 

reefedjib

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Re: Scientific Proof Guns = Freedom

It's true. Countries with higher amounts of gun owners have lower levels of corruption and higher levels of liberty.

According to a comparative study of fifty-nine nation by Koppel, Moody and Nemerov, published in the Texas Review of Law and Policy, concluded that "there is a statistically significant relationship between higher per capita gun ownership and freedom from corruption, economic freedom, and economic success. [...] As a general (but not invariable) rule, countries with more guns have more economic freedom, less corruption, and more economic success. [...] [T]he data raise serious doubts about whether the gun-reducing agenda makes sense as a categorical imperative, at least if freedom ranks highly in one's hierarchy of values."

The study went on to discuss some of the ways in which "Freedom causes guns" but also ways in which "guns cause freedom," to wit: "American civil rights workers were able to protect themselves from the Ku Klux Klan because so many civil rights workers had guns." The study also shows only rare circumstances in which guns reduce freedom, such as the Ivory Coast and the Congo, concluding that "guns in the wrong hands reduce freedom."

It appears that, in a sense, guns really do equal freedom.

This is interesting. Could you post some more quotes as I was unable to download the paper.

Does it talk about homicide rates?
 

Kernel Sanders

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Have you seen the places where anti gun studies are presented? almost always from places that have a serious anti gun bias

I find it disturbing that you think this addresses the problem of the OP's study's obvious bias.

what is funny is that many people who started off with an assumption that guns were bad or gun control were good came out on pro gun right side of the issue (Kleck, Lott). I have never seen someone who started off as a pro gun advocate issue a study that was anti gun.

my favorite one involved a Dr Kellerman who claimed a house with a gun in it was far more l ikely to involve someone being shot than a house without a gun (a truism, if there are no guns people are rarely shot).

He counted a house with a gun one in which someone broke into the house while carrying a weapon and shooting the unarmed home owner

FWIW I was once pro-gun control. Then I thought about it :)
 
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