Greenland ice sheet passes point of no return

[Tim the plumber]

You appear to understand virtually nothing about the Thermohaline Circulation. Yikes! It is NOT wholly driven by the wind!

Thermohaline Circulation - Currents: NOAA's National Ocean Service Education.


(Emphasis added).

As I explained;

The vertical flow, thermohaline circulation, is almost utterly irrelavent to the West-East circulation of the North Atlantic current. The Gulf stream will not stop.

 

[istodolez]

As I explained;

The vertical flow, thermohaline circulation, is almost utterly irrelavent to the West-East circulation of the North Atlantic current. The Gulf stream will not stop.

WOAH! so you think winds are driving the water flow along the bottom of the ocean?

Honestly, you really are "out of your depth" on this one. Sorry.

Please read an oceanography textbook before you post anything more about your "impression" of the THC.

 

[Tim the plumber]

WOAH! so you think winds are driving the water flow along the bottom of the ocean?

Honestly, you really are "out of your depth" on this one. Sorry.

Please read an oceanography textbook before you post anything more about your "impression" of the THC.

No, stop being deliberately brainless.

The vertical flow is different to the horizontal flow at the surface.

The horizontal West to East flow is driven by the wind. This is the thing that carries warmth to Western Europe in the winter.

The vertical flow is driven by the density of the water as it reaches 4c with a tiny component involving salinity. It is only important for oxygenating the deep ocean.

 

[istodolez]

No, stop being deliberately brainless.

At least I have a nodding familiarity with oceanography!

The vertical flow is different to the horizontal flow at the surface.

And it is all part of the THC. The fact that you don't understand this is NOT me being "brainless".

The horizontal West to East flow is driven by the wind. This is the thing that carries warmth to Western Europe in the winter.

Actually water appears to move along laterally at depth as well....so unless you think winds are blowing that water along the bottom branch of the THC then you have to accept that density also drives currents.

The vertical flow is driven by the density of the water as it reaches 4c with a tiny component involving salinity. It is only important for oxygenating the deep ocean.

And what do you think happens when it sinks? Do you think it just drills STRAIGHT DOWN and then continues hammering into the bottom of the ocean endlessly?

You have a very, very confused view of how the ocean works.

 

[Tim the plumber]

At least I have a nodding familiarity with oceanography!



And it is all part of the THC. The fact that you don't understand this is NOT me being "brainless".



Actually water appears to move along laterally at depth as well....so unless you think winds are blowing that water along the bottom branch of the THC then you have to accept that density also drives currents.





And what do you think happens when it sinks? Do you think it just drills STRAIGHT DOWN and then continues hammering into the bottom of the ocean endlessly?

You have a very, very confused view of how the ocean works.

No.

For pitty's sake!

The slow, low volume per unit time, flow of water vertically down does, as your diagram shows, circulate the water all along the ocean floor.

That has nothing(well very very little) to do with the massive flow rate of the Gulf stream which transports lots of heat energy to Western Europe in winter.

 

[istodolez]

No.

For pitty's sake!

The slow, low volume per unit time, flow of water vertically down does, as your diagram shows, circulate the water all along the ocean floor.

That has nothing(well very very little) to do with the massive flow rate of the Gulf stream which transports lots of heat energy to Western Europe in winter.

It's like you have a resistance to even opening a SINGLE intro Oceanography textbook. The Gulf Stream is the surface movement which carries the heat, but that water has to cycle back which is where the Thermohaline Circulation becomes important. The Gulf Stream is PART of the THC. This is why the world's oceanographers have concern. If you disrupt the Thermohaline Circulation you disrupt the overall heat transport system.

I had the pleasure to have actually been on a North Atlantic Research Cruise early on in my career eons ago. I was a chem tech tracking and measuring deep ocean currents. The North Atlantic Deep Western Boundary Current to be quite specific. While I was a "reluctant" oceanographer (I ran the gas chromatograph) I got to hang around with a LOT of oceanographers and got to be introduced to a much larger and complex view of the ocean's heat transport functions. More than I ever really wanted to be quite frank.

Your oversimplified view of North Atlantic heat transport is just that: oversimplified and appears to ignore the basic concepts.

The Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation, part of the thermohaline circulation which includes the Gulf Stream, is the ocean circulation system that carries heat north from the tropics and Southern Hemisphere until it loses it in the northern North Atlantic, Nordic and Labrador Seas, which leads to the deep sinking of the colder waters.

. (SOURCE) (Emphasis added)

 

[Tim the plumber]

It's like you have a resistance to even opening a SINGLE intro Oceanography textbook. The Gulf Stream is the surface movement which carries the heat, but that water has to cycle back which is where the Thermohaline Circulation becomes important. The Gulf Stream is PART of the THC. This is why the world's oceanographers have concern. If you disrupt the Thermohaline Circulation you disrupt the overall heat transport system.

I had the pleasure to have actually been on a North Atlantic Research Cruise early on in my career eons ago. I was a chem tech tracking and measuring deep ocean currents. The North Atlantic Deep Western Boundary Current to be quite specific. While I was a "reluctant" oceanographer (I ran the gas chromatograph) I got to hang around with a LOT of oceanographers and got to be introduced to a much larger and complex view of the ocean's heat transport functions. More than I ever really wanted to be quite frank.

Your oversimplified view of North Atlantic heat transport is just that: oversimplified and appears to ignore the basic concepts.


. (SOURCE) (Emphasis added)

The recirculation happens in the upper levels of the ocean. This is often at about 200m down but can be a surface current. See the diagram.

North Atlantic Current - Wikipedia

 

[istodolez]

The recirculation happens in the upper levels of the ocean.

Wha? The recirculation is the total THC which dives relatively deeply. The recirculation requires the action of the NADW (North Atlantic Deep Water) which can be found and traced as deep as 1500 to 4000m. (Like I said, I know from experience about measuring and tracking the NADW.)

But don't take my word for it!

Here's YET ANOTHER explainer for you from an actual scientist.

 

[Jack Hays]

“Low-Fact Propaganda”: Spiegel’s Alarmism Exposed (Again), Greenland Ice Not “Doomed”

By P Gosselin on 16. August 2020
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German skeptic site Die Kalte Sonne here debunks a recent alarmist article appearing in Spiegel aimed at shocking its readers. The reality, it turns out, is not shocking at all. . . .

 

[Tim the plumber]

Wha? The recirculation is the total THC which dives relatively deeply. The recirculation requires the action of the NADW (North Atlantic Deep Water) which can be found and traced as deep as 1500 to 4000m. (Like I said, I know from experience about measuring and tracking the NADW.)

But don't take my word for it!

Here's YET ANOTHER explainer for you from an actual scientist.

Look at the wiki thing.

Most of the massive recirculation happens near teh surface. This is far too much of a huge volume flow rate for vertical density induced circulation.

 

[istodolez]

Look at the wiki thing.

Sorry, I prefer SCIENCE resources.

Most of the massive recirculation happens near teh surface. This is far too much of a huge volume flow rate for vertical density induced circulation.

I've provided you with actual science resources. Read if you wish. Ignore if that makes you feel better.

But please learn some oceanography.

 

[Jack Hays]

[h=2]New Northern North Altantic Study Finds The Coldest Period With The Most Sea Ice Of The Last ~85 Years…Is Today[/h]By Kenneth Richard on 24. August 2020
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[h=4]Ecological conditions for 3 temperature- and sea ice-sensitive species show the sub-Arctic North Atlantic has been cooling and gaining ice since 1940.[/h]In recent months, several scientific publications have documented a dramatic cooling trend in the subpolar North Atlantic, with temperatures plummeting 2°C since 2008 (Bryden et al., 2020) or -0.78°C per decade since 2004 (Fröb et al., 2019). Maroon et al. (2020) even point out 2015 was the coldest of the last 100 years.

[h=6]Image Source: Bryden et al., 2020[/h]

 

[istodolez]

[h=2]New Northern North Altantic Study Finds The Coldest Period With The Most Sea Ice Of The Last ~85 Years…Is Today[/h]By Kenneth Richard on 24. August 2020
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http://twitter.com/share?url=https:... Most Sea Ice Of The Last ~85 Years…Is Today

As noted earlier that "warming hole" there looks a lot like what is expected from melting of Greenland Ice Sheet ice dumping fresh water into the AMOC and causing a weakening which results in a persistant "cool spot" ("Warming Hole")

[url]https://journals.ametsoc.org/jcli/article/25/24/8373/33671/Is-a-Decline-of-AMOC-Causing-the-Warming-Hole


Very interesting! Each day more and more data come in to show how the science behind AGW is likely more correct. The fact that it constantly gets more data supporting the actual understanding of the physics of ocean and atmosphere is probably why the majority of the earth's climate experts agree that AGW is real and having a measurable effect!

 

[Jack Hays]

As noted earlier that "warming hole" there looks a lot like what is expected from melting of Greenland Ice Sheet ice dumping fresh water into the AMOC and causing a weakening which results in a persistant "cool spot" ("Warming Hole")

Is a Decline of AMOC Causing the Warming Hole above the North Atlantic in Observed and Modeled Warming Patterns? | Journal of Climate | American Meteorological Society


Very interesting! Each day more and more data come in to show how the science behind AGW is likely more correct. The fact that it constantly gets more data supporting the actual understanding of the physics of ocean and atmosphere is probably why the majority of the earth's climate experts agree that AGW is real and having a measurable effect!

Newer science.

[h=2]Multiple Recent Papers Dispel Gulf Stream Collapse, Alarming The Climate Alarmism Industry[/h]By P Gosselin on 10. June 2019
No Reason For Panic: The Oscillating Gulf Stream By Die kalte Sonne (German text translated/edited by P Gosselin) Image: NASA JPL (public domain) The Gulf Stream provides heating for Western Europe. Some climate activists paint horror scenarios on the wall that the Gulf Stream is slowing down or even stopping due to climate change – […]