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"green" energy gets an endangered species pass

sawyerloggingon

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Radical environmentalist used the spotted owl to nearly destroy the timber industry in the Pacific North West but now that wind mill farms are killing another endangered species on a regular basis they just don't care. The hypocrisy of these people never ceases to amaze me.

"It happens about once a month here, on the barren foothills of one of America's green-energy boomtowns: A soaring golden eagle slams into a wind farm's spinning turbine and falls, mangled and lifeless, to the ground.
Killing these iconic birds is not just an irreplaceable loss for a vulnerable species. It's also a federal crime, a charge that the Obama administration has used to prosecute oil companies when birds drown in their waste pits, and power companies when birds are electrocuted by their power lines.
But the administration has never fined or prosecuted a wind-energy company, even those that flout the law repeatedly. Instead, the government is shielding the industry from liability and helping keep the scope of the deaths secret.
Wind power, a pollution-free energy intended to ease global warming, is a cornerstone of President Barack Obama's energy plan. His administration has championed a $1 billion-a-year tax break to the industry that has nearly doubled the amount of wind power in his first term.
But like the oil industry under President George W. Bush, lobbyists and executives have used their favored status to help steer U.S. energy policy."


AP IMPACT: Wind farms get pass on eagle deaths - Bonner County Daily Bee: National
 

CalGun

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I really doubt the left cares about the symbol of the eagle. And you are right the spotted owl was used by those who'd like us to return to the cave man era and are for animal equality as long as its not the human animal.
 

MoSurveyor

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The BP oil company was fined $100 million for killing and harming migratory birds during the 2010 Gulf oil spill. And PacifiCorp, which operates coal plants in Wyoming, paid more than $10.5 million in 2009 for electrocuting 232 eagles along power lines and at its substations.

But PacifiCorp also operates wind farms in the state, where at least 20 eagles have been found dead in recent years, according to corporate surveys submitted to the federal government and obtained by The Associated Press.
So let me get this straight. PacifiCorp kills over 200 eagles in one year from power lines and you don't complain about that - but if their wind farms kill 20 over several years it's a mortal sin? 3/3 ...

:lamo :lamo :lamo
 
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Lord of Planar

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So let me get this straight. PacifiCorp kills over 200 eagles in one year from power lines and you don't complain about that - but if their wind farms kill 20 over several years it's a mortal sin? 3/3 ...

:lamo :lamo :lamo
OK, what am I missing?

How do power lines kill eagles? Birds perch on power lines all the time. Without being grounded or across two phases, there is no potential across their bodies to shock them, so how...
 

MoSurveyor

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OK, what am I missing?

How do power lines kill eagles? Birds perch on power lines all the time. Without being grounded or across two phases, there is no potential across their bodies to shock them, so how...
If the power lines are built side-by-side instead of vertical then eagles and other large-wing-span birds can span the gap and kill themselves. Power line standards for many years use the vertical arrangement. The older, parallel lines were supposed to be changed to the vertical configuration but some companies would rather pay the fines than fix the problem.


PS
Some standards have parallel lines but at a much wider distance than the old standards making the newer parallel lines safe for large birds.
 

Lord of Planar

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If the power lines are built side-by-side instead of vertical then eagles and other large-wing-span birds can span the gap and kill themselves. Power line standards for many years use the vertical arrangement. The older, parallel lines were supposed to be changed to the vertical configuration but some companies would rather pay the fines than fix the problem.


PS
Some standards have parallel lines but at a much wider distance than the old standards making the newer parallel lines safe for large birds.
OK.

I've never seen long haul lines that close, even for such majestic birds. City lines, yes.
 

MoSurveyor

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OK, what am I missing?

How do power lines kill eagles? Birds perch on power lines all the time. Without being grounded or across two phases, there is no potential across their bodies to shock them, so how...
I went looking for the standards but the ones I found are behind a pay wall at ASTM. I did find an article talking about pylon designs. Apparently, larger birds can short from a power line to a metal pylon, which makes sense. There are experiments being done to determine guidelines for pylon design. The pylon issue isn't what the EPA is looking at, though that could change if good pylon design standards can be developed.
 

MoSurveyor

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I've never seen long haul lines that close, even for such majestic birds. City lines, yes.
Newer ones aren't a problem, just the really old ones. I guess in the areas talked about in the article there must be some issues with access that make it expensive to rebuild or modify.
 

Lord of Planar

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I went looking for the standards but the ones I found are behind a pay wall at ASTM. I did find an article talking about pylon designs. Apparently, larger birds can short from a power line to a metal pylon, which makes sense. There are experiments being done to determine guidelines for pylon design. The pylon issue isn't what the EPA is looking at, though that could change if good pylon design standards can be developed.
Here is what I'm used to seeing, but then I live in Eagle and Spotted owl territory...



Note, the lines appear to be about 40 ft apart. The insulators are longer than wingspans also.
 
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sawyerloggingon

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humbolt

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Right, real environmentalist that actually care about the environment are against industrial level wind and solar, only the warmer freaks say f*** the environment we have to save the planet. Make sense of that one.:lol:
They're religious zealots. That, and they watched too much Captain Planet when they were little.
 

Threegoofs

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Plate glass windows kill a billion birds a year, some of them endangered.

Glass blamed for billion bird deaths a year - US news - Environment | NBC News

Do we ban plate glass and take down skyscrapers?

All technology comes with negative environmental effects, good placement of windfarms goes a long way to alleviate bird deaths, and the overall goal of the farms is to help mitigate CO2 emissions, which has the potential to kill billions of birds and is currently contributing to bird extinction worldwide.


WWF - Climate change impacts on bird species

The original post in this thread is disingenuous, at best.
 

sawyerloggingon

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Plate glass windows kill a billion birds a year, some of them endangered.

Glass blamed for billion bird deaths a year - US news - Environment | NBC News

Do we ban plate glass and take down skyscrapers?

All technology comes with negative environmental effects, good placement of windfarms goes a long way to alleviate bird deaths, and the overall goal of the farms is to help mitigate CO2 emissions, which has the potential to kill billions of birds and is currently contributing to bird extinction worldwide.


WWF - Climate change impacts on bird species

The original post in this thread is disingenuous, at best.
The OP is making a point you are trying desperately to ignore. Obviously you did not read or did not comprehend it so I will high lite the basic premise for you. see if you can find the double standard here. :lol:


Killing these iconic birds is not just an irreplaceable loss for a vulnerable species. It's also a federal crime, a charge that the Obama administration has used to prosecute oil companies when birds drown in their waste pits, and power companies when birds are electrocuted by their power lines.
But the administration has never fined or prosecuted a wind-energy company, even those that flout the law repeatedly. Instead, the government is shielding the industry from liability and helping keep the scope of the deaths secret.
 

sawyerloggingon

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Right. Wind farms have an exemption.

Wind power takes precedence over protecting endangered cranes - Houston Chronicle

Because overall, wind energy will save more birds than they harm.

It's not rocket science.
I read that three times looking for your point. The article seems to be on my side on this issue. Is there some sentence or word I missed that you are hanging your hat on here? It's been a long day and I'm tired so maybe I missed it but the article ends with this. Are you sure you posted the right link?:lol:






"The Obama administration talks a mean game of standing up for the little guy and taking on special interests, but when it comes to wildlife conservation, it appears to be only talk. The last thing the whooping crane needs is more threats to its precarious existence, especially from the very government that is supposed to protect it."
 

Threegoofs

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The article might. But I was using it as a reference source that there is an exemption for wind power specifically.

It's not like the government is looking tge other way, as its been sort of implied.

It's a cost-benefit decision to exempt windmills.
 

MoSurveyor

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Right, real environmentalist that actually care about the environment are against industrial level wind and solar, only the warmer freaks say f*** the environment we have to save the planet. Make sense of that one.:lol:
A self-professed NIMBY can say this? :lamo :lamo :lamo
 

MoSurveyor

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Plate glass windows kill a billion birds a year, some of them endangered.

Glass blamed for billion bird deaths a year - US news - Environment | NBC News

Do we ban plate glass and take down skyscrapers?

All technology comes with negative environmental effects, good placement of windfarms goes a long way to alleviate bird deaths, and the overall goal of the farms is to help mitigate CO2 emissions, which has the potential to kill billions of birds and is currently contributing to bird extinction worldwide.

WWF - Climate change impacts on bird species

The original post in this thread is disingenuous, at best.
It's not just CO2 emissions, it's all the other crap that goes with it!
 

MoSurveyor

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The OP is making a point you are trying desperately to ignore. Obviously you did not read or did not comprehend it so I will high lite the basic premise for you. see if you can find the double standard here. :lol:

Killing these iconic birds is not just an irreplaceable loss for a vulnerable species. It's also a federal crime, a charge that the Obama administration has used to prosecute oil companies when birds drown in their waste pits, and power companies when birds are electrocuted by their power lines.
But the administration has never fined or prosecuted a wind-energy company, even those that flout the law repeatedly. Instead, the government is shielding the industry from liability and helping keep the scope of the deaths secret.
Yeah - it's OK that 200+/year are killed but not OK for 20 over several years! :lamo
 

sawyerloggingon

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The article might. But I was using it as a reference source that there is an exemption for wind power specifically.

It's not like the government is looking tge other way, as its been sort of implied.

It's a cost-benefit decision to exempt windmills.
The cost benefit is based on the AGW theory not on any fact and I have not seen any stats on how many Golden eagles will die due to AGW if it actually existed. What is going on here is industry obama favors gets a pass on killing endangered species while industry he doesn't like gets hammered. It is all politics.
 

Threegoofs

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The cost benefit is based on the AGW theory not on any fact and I have not seen any stats on how many Golden eagles will die due to AGW if it actually existed. What is going on here is industry obama favors gets a pass on killing endangered species while industry he doesn't like gets hammered. It is all politics.
You haven't seen any stats on Gloden Eagles and AGW. Well, the EPA is probably not as lazy as you and has seen the studies. And they don't pretend that science can be ignored because its convenient, like some.

The concept of AGW is not the only reason to encourage alternative energy. Renewability, less emissions of other types vs fossil fuels, and diversification are three additional excellent reasons to encourage the development.
 

sawyerloggingon

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You haven't seen any stats on Gloden Eagles and AGW. Well, the EPA is probably not as lazy as you and has seen the studies. And they don't pretend that science can be ignored because its convenient, like some.

The concept of AGW is not the only reason to encourage alternative energy. Renewability, less emissions of other types vs fossil fuels, and diversification are three additional excellent reasons to encourage the development.
So show me the study. You can't and you know why? Because global warming has now morphed into "climate change" because things were not warming as anticipated. Climate change ostensibly means weather will be warmer in some areas colder in others so how could a study be done on Golden Eagle habitat if they don't know if it will be warmer, colder, wetter or drier. Unless of course you are saying Golden Eagles can only survive in the exact conditions they have now at this instant in earths history and any deviation whatsoever will kill them. Give it up boy, it's politics.
 

Threegoofs

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I can do your homework.

http://web4.audubon.org/globalwarming/files/GW and birds 041707.pdf

Again, its not about some Golden Eagles. It's about endangered wildlife as a whole. And wind is better than fossil.

Golden Eagles, as far as I know, are not Endangered Species anyway...and are pretty common in the western US. I've seen tons of them myself.
 

sawyerloggingon

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I can do your homework.

http://web4.audubon.org/globalwarming/files/GW and birds 041707.pdf

Again, its not about some Golden Eagles. It's about endangered wildlife as a whole. And wind is better than fossil.

Golden Eagles, as far as I know, are not Endangered Species anyway...and are pretty common in the western US. I've seen tons of them myself.
You are half right on the Golden Eagle, it was recently taken off the endangered species list and put on the International Migratory Bird Treaty Act and the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act. On your link though you are 100% right, it does not mention the Golden Eagle at all.:lol: Using the argument that chopping up raptors in wind mills is going to save more than it kills based on a theory called AGW is absurd though. The FACT is industrial wind mills do kill raptors daily and the THEORY that they will die anyway without wind mills just doesn't hold up. Fact vs theory, fact wins every time. If you are claiming the EPA is basing its lack wild life laws enforcement based on the AGW theory and on that Audubon so called study you and them are on very shaky ground. AGW is politics not science and letting wind mills kill both endangered and protected species in the name of AGW is politics not science.
 
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