Greek militants attack Turkish consulate

[MetalGear]

Unknown assailants threw firebombs outside the Turkish consulate in the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki on Saturday but no one was injured.

The incendiaries thrown by a group of around 15 people were aimed at the guard post outside the consulate, which is manned by Greek police.

"We consider this an attack against Greek police rather than against the consulate," police told AFP.

The attackers subsequently escaped into Aristotelio University, which is located near the consulate. Attacks by suspected anarchists on police and government targets near the university are common in the city.

Another firebomb had been thrown at the consulate's outer fence on Aug. 12, an attack which the Greek government condemned as a "criminal act."

Turkish consulate in Greece targeted in firebomb attack - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

 

[German guy]

I'm no expert on the conflict between Greece and Turkey, but I don't really understand it. From far away, this looks like a very petty, anachronistic enmity from times that are long gone. What's the problem and who keeps this ridiculous animosity alife?

Also, I want to add that from a detached perspective on this animosity, it looks even more ridiculous, because Greeks and Turkish people appear very similar. You look very similar, you eat basically the same things (don't tell me Ouzo and Yaki, or Gyros and Kebap are different things, or I'll batter you with a Wiener Schnitzel! ) and both people are usually too lazy to get their economies in order.

(Ok, the last paragraph was tongue in cheeck, just for the record.)

 

[MetalGear]

I'm no expert on the conflict between Greece and Turkey, but I don't really understand it. From far away, this looks like a very petty, anachronistic enmity from times that are long gone. What's the problem and who keeps this ridiculous animosity alife?

Actually Turkey and Greece are currently enjoying a period of good relations. They have established a cooperation council whereby top leaders of both countries (politicians and military leaders) gather once a year to describe regional problems, conflict resolution and economic treaties. Turkey-Greece economic relations have reached such a good point that Turkey has permanently removed Greece from its list of nations who pose a threat to Turkey. The source of tension however, remains to be the Aegean sea borders and Cyprus.

Also, I want to add that from a detached perspective on this animosity, it looks even more ridiculous, because Greeks and Turkish people appear very similar. You look very similar, you eat basically the same things (don't tell me Gyros and Kebap are different things, or I'll batter you with a Wiener Schnitzel! ) and both people are usually too lazy to get their economies in order.

Not your weiner schnitzel! :lol:
Your points are all very true, but in fairness to us we are experiencing 10% + growth and Greece is in recession. :mrgreen:

 

[German guy]

Actually Turkey and Greece are currently enjoying a period of good relations. They have established a cooperation council whereby top leaders of both countries (politicians and military leaders) gather once a year to describe regional problems, conflict resolution and economic treaties. Turkey-Greece economic relations have reached such a good point that Turkey has permanently removed Greece from its list of nations who pose a threat to Turkey. The source of tension however, remains to be the Aegean sea borders and Cyprus.

That's good to hear. I'm not updated on the Cyprus situation, though. What is the last important update? Does the Greek part still reject a solution by referendum, after the Turkish side had finally made everything ready for a solution, after a long time of reluctance?

Such a dispute about borders (and not fundamental differences, just some claims on minor isles, I assume) seems especially petty in the light of a potential Turkish EU membership (or at least association contracts): Once you are allowed to move freely between these two countries, have minority rights protected and maybe even use the same currency one day, you'd think border disputes wouldn't be much of an issue anymore. Much like there are hardly Germans and Austrians left contemplating about a unification of both countries -- it would be way too much of a hassle, while all the benefits such a move would bring are reality already, due to both countries being integrated within the EU.

Not your weiner schnitzel! :lol:
Your points are all very true, but in fairness to us we are experiencing 10% + growth and Greece is in recession. :mrgreen:

Congratulations!
Btw, I heard about a referendum in Turkey about a constitutional reform or so. What is that about, and what's your take on it?

And, if I may ask: Apparently, you are Turkish. Do you live in Turkey as well, or in Denmark?

 

[MetalGear]

That's good to hear. I'm not updated on the Cyprus situation, though. What is the last important update? Does the Greek part still reject a solution by referendum, after the Turkish side had finally made everything ready for a solution, after a long time of reluctance?

Indeed they do reject a resolution by referendum. What is currently happening is this; our government is negotiating with Greece to settle property disputes as the Greek side is attempting to sue Turkey at the ECHR and take back all the previously Greek owned land from North Cyprus through court orders. This is technically a non-conflict invasion, by obtaining land through courts by having Greek citizens go to court with Turkey on an individual bases (for everybody who lost land during the war). The ECHR ruled recently however that the best remedy for a solution of the property problems is through a Turkish Cypriot institution called the IPC (immovable property commission). It refuses to hand over Turkish Cypriot land to the Greeks but instead seeks to compensate them for there loss of land. Its is the fairest solution because Turkish Cypriots have much more limitations when it comes to obtaining there own land lost during the war on the Greek side of the border through courts (the ECHR) which is just completely discriminative and borderline racist.

Both leaders also seek a permanent solution to the island on a whole; initially they wanted to see a federal Cyprus with a Greek PM for one term and a Turkish PM for another. But because of faltering peace talks and the stubbornness of both sides (especially the Greek side in regards to property and a disputed city in the North called the Maras that they want back), the Turkish Cypriots are now pulling towards a one state solution with the backing of European friends. This will be the case (a velvet revolution for the official establishment of a separate, sovereign Turkish Cypriot state) if UN mediated peace talks should fail.

It's not what Turkey wants, but they agree that is the only solution should peace talks fail. Many EU MP's are now pushing for direct trade treaties with Turkish Cyprus and this could help.

Such a dispute about borders (and not fundamental differences, just some claims on minor isles, I assume) seems especially petty in the light of a potential Turkish EU membership (or at least association contracts): Once you are allowed to move freely between these two countries, have minority rights protected and maybe even use the same currency one day, you'd think border disputes wouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

It wont be when people start seeing Europe as European rather than German/Greek/Turkish etc. This will likely be the case in the future with continued European integration. Until then, we will likely see this problem continue.

Much like there are hardly Germans and Austrians left contemplating about a unification of both countries -- it would be way too much of a hassle, while all the benefits such a move would bring are reality already, due to both countries being integrated within the EU.

If the case of Germany/Austria could be replicated for all European countries, then border disputes will technically become irrelevant, although the nationalists will not forget.

Congratulations!
Btw, I heard about a referendum in Turkey about a constitutional reform or so. What is that about, and what's your take on it?

:mrgreen:

It is pretty good. It now completely protects the rights of women, disabled people and ethnic minorities against discrimination. It creates a much more Democratic Turkey. The only problem i have, is the expansion of the judiciary.

And, if I may ask: Apparently, you are Turkish. Do you live in Turkey as well, or in Denmark?

Indeed i am, but born and raised in the UK, just returned from a long haul in Afghanistan and currently residing in Denmark with the wife and kids.

 

[Andalublue]

It is pretty good. It now completely protects the rights of women, disabled people and ethnic minorities against discrimination. It creates a much more Democratic Turkey. The only problem i have, is the expansion of the judiciary.

My best friend, a Turk living in Istanbul, isn't nearly as positive about the constitutional change, especially about the potential it offers for political control to be exercised over the judiciary. The lifting of the immunity of the coup conspirators is very widely popular, but Erdoğan has packaged all the changes together, the good with the bad in an all-or-nothing deal. This puts in jeopardy the checks and balances of the secular Ataturkist state. Do you disagree?

 

[MetalGear]

My best friend, a Turk living in Istanbul, isn't nearly as positive about the constitutional change, especially about the potential it offers for political control to be exercised over the judiciary. The lifting of the immunity of the coup conspirators is very widely popular, but Erdoğan has packaged all the changes together, the good with the bad in an all-or-nothing deal. This puts in jeopardy the checks and balances of the secular Ataturkist state. Do you disagree?

Not at all. But ironically enough, the coup leaders cannot be prosecuted, for the day the consitution was signed into law, it had been over 30 years. There crime is officially lifted after this time.
What will happen to secularism if the CHP come to power and thus resume the same control over the judiciary? Works both ways.

 

[Andalublue]

Not at all. But ironically enough, the coup leaders cannot be prosecuted, for the day the consitution was signed into law, it had been over 30 years. There crime is officially lifted after this time.
What will happen to secularism if the CHP come to power and thus resume the same control over the judiciary? Works both ways.

True that! The same applies to whatever political party takes control. The checks and balances have always been unequally distributed. Pushing them in one direction doesn't solve the problem, it just changes the problem. A bigger worry might be what might happen if the MHP came to power. Unlikely at the moment, but not inconceivable.

Does the constitutional change make the likelihood of another political party banning any less likely? Well, it does if you are the AKP, but not if you are the DTP. The argument that the AKP makes for the tighter political control of the judiciary might make sense if they hadn't sat back and completely revelled in the DTP banning order last December. Did they oppose that? Of course not, because it removed a legitimate and popular alternatie vote to the AKP in the south and east. I think that is what is making people cynical and pessimistic about this week's vote.

 

[MetalGear]

True that! The same applies to whatever political party takes control. The checks and balances have always been unequally distributed. Pushing them in one direction doesn't solve the problem, it just changes the problem. A bigger worry might be what might happen if the MHP came to power. Unlikely at the moment, but not inconceivable.

Does the constitutional change make the likelihood of another political party banning any less likely?

Yes.

Well, it does if you are the AKP, but not if you are the DTP. The argument that the AKP makes for the tighter political control of the judiciary might make sense if they hadn't sat back and completely revelled in the DTP banning order last December. Did they oppose that? Of course not, because it removed a legitimate and popular alternatie vote to the AKP in the south and east. I think that is what is making people cynical and pessimistic about this week's vote.

Did you know there is serious political discussion about the creation of a presidential government system? That is the last and final hurdle of the AKP should they win the elections. That is the battle we must fight to the grave.

 

[Andalublue]

Did you know there is serious political discussion about the creation of a presidential government system? That is the last and final hurdle of the AKP should they win the elections. That is the battle we must fight to the grave.

Yes, it is. Too much power residing in the hands of too few makes a pluralist deomcracy head in the opposite direction. It also totally undermines the vision of Ataturk, that there should be provisions to prevent a democracy reverting to an elective dictatorship. He didn't seek that degree of control over the state, but perhaps Erdoğan considers himself a step above Mustafa Kemal bey.

 

[soguks]

what appals me is that The Greeks have always taken the first step(mistake), and then got the reaction from the other side; but, suprisingly , They have always been the first side complaining about the results, blaiming the other side for the events that They started, as in cyprus, as in pogrom of Turks in Thrace, as in the last economic collapse etc. i think they will never learn to act with rationality.

 

[MetalGear]

Well, that was made pretty obvious to the rest of us when Greece started whining like a bitch about Germany and how the Germans did not properly refund the Greeks for there occupation. This claim magically fabricated itself in the height of the Greek economic crises may i add. I do not sympathize with them in any way. In the height of crises we are actually known to help each other. But this entire situation was created by a web of Greek lies. So not Turkish fire planes to extinguish this blaze, my friend!

 

[PeteEU]

Well, that was made pretty obvious to the rest of us when Greece started whining like a bitch about Germany and how the Germans did not properly refund the Greeks for there occupation. This claim magically fabricated itself in the height of the Greek economic crises may i add. I do not sympathize with them in any way. In the height of crises we are actually known to help each other. But this entire situation was created by a web of Greek lies. So not Turkish fire planes to extinguish this blaze, my friend!

To be fair.. it was one misguided fool in the Greek government that made that claim. It was never the official policy or view of the Greek government.

 

[MetalGear]

To be fair.. it was one misguided fool in the Greek government that made that claim. It was never the official policy or view of the Greek government.

Fair enough, i'll give you points for that.