• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Greek mayor to build Turkish memorial in Thessaloniki

MetalGear

In a house by the river
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2009
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
197
Location
Denmark, Grena
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
The mayor-elect of Thessaloniki, Greece’s second-largest city, on Friday announced plans to build a monument to the movement headed by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

Yiannis Boutaris, the city’s first Socialist-backed mayor in 24 years, said he intended to build the monument on a square associated with the Young Turks, the movement that created the Turkish Republic in the early 20th century.

A monument to the man who established Turkey; a modern, progressive and secular Muslim country, who taught us the values of freedom, republicanism and positivism. A leader who used authoritarian modernism to establish the cultural identity of our modern day country folk and successfully implemented a parliamentary European model of rule.

Today it enjoyes continuing democratic and economic freedoms. And moreso, this reflects the increasingly important diplomatic and political ties between two historically hostile nations.

Greek mayor to build Turkish memorial in Thessaloniki - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review
 

soguks

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
390
Reaction score
99
Location
Türkiye
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
metalgear,

i do not want greeks to build the monument of Atatürk, their tolerance for others in greece...did you see what happened in the festival of sacrifice in greece ? i assume you did not, so i am telling you...in greece there is no mosque open for muslims to pray, even in athens, actually there are some mosques built in ottoman era, but most of them have been destroyed or closed by greece, people of which are always proud of its culture (!), what is more, people to pray in the morning of the first day of the festival in ''streets of athens'' have been attacked by greeks and thrown eggs at while praying in '' streets of athens''...

here is a link Mob in Athens abuses Muslims as they celebrate Eid - Yahoo! News UK ....


so my point is that they should not build a monument of Atatürk, cuz they will throw the same eggs at the monument as they did treat ''others'' and ''the religion of the others'' in their country. btw, there are over 100 churches open in Istanbul, i am saying this, cuz some people will try to justify greece and the action of those attackers ... Atatürk is important for us Turks, so i do not want to see the same attacks at The monument of Atatürk.

Regards.
 

Djoop

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,932
Reaction score
683
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
From the article:

Atatürk was born in Thessaloniki, which until 1912 was part of the Ottoman Empire. The city had a large Jewish and Turkish population at the time but vestiges of their presence have all but disappeared since.

You can’t deny history, these people lived here,” Boutaris said, adding that he also intended to build a memorial to the city’s Jewish martyrs on the square.

We would like Turks and Jews to come to the city in a pilgrimage to their family heritage, in the same way as we go to Constantinople,” said Boutaris, using the Greek name for Istanbul, the former capital of the Byzantine Empire.


There's nothing wrong with this iniative, I think the intentions are praiseworthy considering the poor relations between both countries.
 

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
From the article:

Atatürk was born in Thessaloniki, which until 1912 was part of the Ottoman Empire. The city had a large Jewish and Turkish population at the time but vestiges of their presence have all but disappeared since.

You can’t deny history, these people lived here,” Boutaris said, adding that he also intended to build a memorial to the city’s Jewish martyrs on the square.

We would like Turks and Jews to come to the city in a pilgrimage to their family heritage, in the same way as we go to Constantinople,” said Boutaris, using the Greek name for Istanbul, the former capital of the Byzantine Empire.


There's nothing wrong with this iniative, I think the intentions are praiseworthy considering the poor relations between both countries.

I agree, although i wouldn't use the word "poor" to describe our relations.

so my point is that they should not build a monument of Atatürk, cuz they will throw the same eggs at the monument as they did treat ''others'' and ''the religion of the others'' in their country. btw, there are over 100 churches open in Istanbul, i am saying this, cuz some people will try to justify greece and the action of those attackers ... Atatürk is important for us Turks, so i do not want to see the same attacks at The monument of Atatürk.

Regards.

How Greece treats Muslims is irrelevant. Ataturk represented a progressive and non-religious ideology. Our constitution represents this. Our republic is this.

How Greece treats minorities is a problem that needs to be resolved by the EU/ECHR and domestically and has no relevance with a monument that praises his cunning leadership, innovation and legend.

Your comment about "throwing eggs" at an Ataturk monument is nothing but baseless. It could happen in Turkey or anywhere else in the world for that matter..... unless you suggest all Greeks aim to desecrate his image, which is in fact borderline racist.

Ataturk's birth place has been reserved and opened for the general public in Greece and is not systematically destroyed nor is it neglected by the Greek administration. Those who appreciate history and those who appreciate capitalist and democratic statesmen will appreciate the monument.

Those who seek to harm it are in the minority and are irrelevant because they are fuelled by bigoted and misleading views.

Soguks, an egg will not harm Ataturk's work.
 
Last edited:

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
But a monument of a man reminds us of his values and his achievements, and this resonates through the ages.

What more could you want?
 

Wiseone

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 26, 2009
Messages
12,177
Reaction score
7,551
Location
Ft. Campbell, KY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'm not Greek or Turkish, but I'm a big fan of Ataturk. I think Turkey has the potential to become a serious regional power in both the Middle East and South East Europe, and if they do they owe it to Ataturk.
 

soguks

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
390
Reaction score
99
Location
Türkiye
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
How Greece treats Muslims is irrelevant. Ataturk represented a progressive and non-religious ideology. Our constitution represents this. Our republic is this.

How Greece treats minorities is a problem that needs to be resolved by the EU/ECHR and domestically and has no relevance with a monument that praises his cunning leadership, innovation and legend.

Your comment about "throwing eggs" at an Ataturk monument is nothing but baseless. It could happen in Turkey or anywhere else in the world for that matter..... unless you suggest all Greeks aim to desecrate his image, which is in fact borderline racist.

Ataturk's birth place has been reserved and opened for the general public in Greece and is not systematically destroyed nor is it neglected by the Greek administration. Those who appreciate history and those who appreciate capitalist and democratic statesmen will appreciate the monument.

Those who seek to harm it are in the minority and are irrelevant because they are fuelled by bigoted and misleading views.

Soguks, an egg will not harm Ataturk's work?

sorry , but i am not that naive to think how greeks treat others is irrelevant with that monument... btw, could you please enlighten us why how greeks treat 'others' is irrelevant when we talk about some other non-greek man 'Atatürk' ? ... it is a sign that they will treat that monument , if built, as in the way greeks threw eggs at muslims in the streets of athens while praying for a religious festival, cuz it has been the policy of greek government to treat ohers in that way, otherwise there would be a mosque, or not people throwing eggs at people who praying in the streets of athens, which is the only capital that there is no mosque in, instead of mosques; maybe you are ok with that in your comfy house, but i dont want to see people throwing eggs at that monument and people saying it is ok to throw eggs, cuz it does not change Ataturk's works ... Ataturk is a great leader, and deserves some respects , not eggs or some people who live in other country and who do not care their history...


btw, if you do not believe it is the policy of greek government to treat others badly, just take a look at the population of greece chronologically, or read how greece treat the minorities in greece, starting with people in west thrace...

Regards(!)
 
Last edited:

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
sorry , but i am not that naive to think how greeks treat others is irrelevant with that monument... btw, could you please enlighten us why how greeks treat 'others' is irrelevant when we talk about some other non-greek man 'Atatürk' ? ... it is a sign that they will treat that monument , if built, as in the way greeks threw eggs at muslims in the streets of athens while praying for a religious festival, cuz it has been the policy of greek government to treat ohers in that way, otherwise there would be a mosque, or not people throwing eggs at people who praying in the streets of athens, which is the only capital that there is no mosque in, instead of mosques; maybe you are ok with that in your comfy house, but i dont want to see people throwing eggs at that monument and people saying it is ok to throw eggs, cuz it does not change Ataturk's works ... Ataturk is a great leader, and deserves some respects , not eggs or some people who live in other country and who do not care their history...

Assumption, assumption, assumption. If you declare those who throw eggs at muslims the majority in Greece than you are not one for factual data. Period.

Turkey has also had a terrible track record in the past for treating minorities like dirt. So should WE stop building Ataturk monuments?
 

German guy

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
5,187
Reaction score
4,255
Location
Berlin, Germany
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I don't really know about the details of Greek-Turkish relations, but considering they were tensed in the past and probably still are to some extent, I think it's a good step when a great Turkish statesman can be honored in Greece, although there are probably many Greek who feel offended by that. It's a good gesture. Those who fuel resentment on both sides should not keep this from happening.
 

soguks

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
390
Reaction score
99
Location
Türkiye
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Assumption, assumption, assumption. If you declare those who throw eggs at muslims the majority in Greece than you are not one for factual data. Period.

Turkey has also had a terrible track record in the past for treating minorities like dirt. So should WE stop building Ataturk monuments?

i cannot understand you ... you are justifiying yourself and Greece with the record of Turkey about Turkey's treatment to minorities ? then i can say there are hunders of churches in Turkey open, and no christian is being threw eggs at while practising their religion in the churches, just take a look akdamar church or sumela to see how minorities practice their religion in Turkey... now can you say the same thing for greece ? can you say greece is tolerant with minorities ? if you answer with a yes, then could you please tell me why muslims are practicing their religion in the streets of athens, and why there is no mosque open in athens ?.. or why the truks in west thrace are being oppressed ?

btw, why are you using the word 'we' ? to use a Turkish name does not prove anything; otherwise, The people called as Turks(!) would not have greeted the invaders entering into Istanbul after ww1 with flags, right?
 

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
i cannot understand you ... you are justifiying yourself and Greece with the record of Turkey about Turkey's treatment to minorities ? then i can say there are hunders of churches in Turkey open, and no christian is being threw eggs at while practising their religion in the churches, just take a look akdamar church or sumela to see how minorities practice their religion in Turkey... now can you say the same thing for greece ? can you say greece is tolerant with minorities ? if you answer with a yes, then could you please tell me why muslims are practicing their religion in the streets of athens, and why there is no mosque open in athens ?.. or why the truks in west thrace are being oppressed ?

You have over-exaggerated your claims about Muslims being opressed in Greece (or as it is commonly known, "Abartma"). They are not systematically egged and mosque's ARE open in Greece. What your saying is a purely fabricated.

I'm also not accusing Turkey of nothing, i'm just saying we have had a past of treating minorities badly.

btw, why are you using the word 'we' ? to use a Turkish name does not prove anything; otherwise, The people called as Turks(!) would not have greeted the invaders entering into Istanbul after ww1 with flags, right?

What?
 

soguks

Banned
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
390
Reaction score
99
Location
Türkiye
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
i am sure you are unlikely to be pleased by the news about mosque-free athens below:

BBC NEWS | Europe | Athens Muslims to get a mosque ..... Istanbul's Grand Mosque and Mosque-Free Athens | GlobalPost

I dont see the problem. Greece has had a long history of conflict with the Muslim Ottomans so a lack of mosques in the capital city, i suppose, is historic. Due to the largely conservative lean of religion in Greece, talk of creating mosque's become a controversy among the public and this too is reasonable and may be the reason why Muslims have avoided confronting this issue head on until now, since there numbers are larger than before.

However you would do well to take note that Greece has mosque's, just none to be found in Athens.
And as part of EU law the Greek democratic system has already resolved these issues, by permitting the creation of a mosque in Athens and im sure, if you followed this up, will find that they have also been given the legal recognition as places of worship.

But on a good note, you will find this highlights European Union hypocrisy. If the same was true for Turkey in regards to Churches it would have been another obstacle placed by the xenephobic EU elite.
 
Last edited:

Djoop

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 17, 2009
Messages
1,932
Reaction score
683
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yes, not every turk is a muslim, next!
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,847
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
A monument to the man who established Turkey; a modern, progressive and secular Muslim country, who taught us the values of freedom, republicanism and positivism. A leader who used authoritarian modernism to establish the cultural identity of our modern day country folk and successfully implemented a parliamentary European model of rule.

Today it enjoyes continuing democratic and economic freedoms. And moreso, this reflects the increasingly important diplomatic and political ties between two historically hostile nations.

Greek mayor to build Turkish memorial in Thessaloniki - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

dear metal are you a fan of atatürk:shock:

in fact greeks as a whole have a disturbia and inferiority complex which stems ffrom their past

but they still have problem with their culturel identity.they try to own turkish named turkısh meals such as greek yoğurt greek baklava greek pastırma..
 
Last edited:

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
dear metal are you a fan of atatürk:shock:

in fact greeks as a whole have a disturbia and inferiority complex which stems ffrom their past

but they still have problem with their culturel identity.they try to own turkish named turkısh meals such as greek yoğurt greek baklava greek pastırma..

If you think we should drag ourselves into conflict with the Greeks or risk regional & NATO destabilization because they stole our yogurt or insist on naming helim halloumi then you are a nationalist who, historically, has only ever destroyed our nationhood and global image.

What we need is to exploit our current economic growth to attract Asian investment and use this to build a strong European Social welfare state to help decrease poverty and increase living standards, reduce the size of government and build consensus in Turkey for a liberally demoratic political system based on individualism rather than elitism, with an understanding and recognition both historically and otherwise that secular nationalism and islamic nationalism is no longer suited for a modern society in a post coldwar era.
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,847
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
If you think we should drag ourselves into conflict with the Greeks or risk regional & NATO destabilization because they stole our yogurt or insist on naming helim halloumi then you are a nationalist who, historically, has only ever destroyed our nationhood and global image.

What we need is to exploit our current economic growth to attract Asian investment and use this to build a strong European Social welfare state to help decrease poverty and increase living standards, reduce the size of government and build consensus in Turkey for a liberally demoratic political system based on individualism rather than elitism, with an understanding and recognition both historically and otherwise that secular nationalism and islamic nationalism is no longer suited for a modern society in a post coldwar era.

kaya please remove that avatar!!

because you cant be a follower of Atatürk...

there is nothing called secular or islamic nationalism.nationalism is just the national benefits of that nation...

turkey hasnt an image problem.we dont own others meals or culturel heritages.....

we dont have problem with them but they have!!

you are a liberal i think but liberalization is a game of imperials over eastern part of the world.

Ataturk was not elitist he was ffrom public but akp and their supporters like elitist ottoman family very much...
 
Last edited:

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
kaya please remove that avatar!!

because you cant be a follower of Atatürk...

there is nothing called secular or islamic nationalism.nationalism is just the national benefits of that nation...

turkey hasnt an image problem.we dont own others meals or culturel heritages.....

we dont have problem with them but they have!!

you are a liberal i think but liberalization is a game of imperials over eastern part of the world.

Ataturk was not elitist he was ffrom public but akp and their supporters like elitist ottoman family very much...

Your understanding of politics is very limited. Islamic nationalism and secular nationalism does exist, infact the latter is what we have in our nation currently. How has the view of Turkish superiority benefited us? It created the PKK, it created coups, a lack of Democracy, violation of human rights and the slaughtering of our own citizens.

Liberal Democracy is one of the closest systems in the world to equal representation. Liberalization involves the opening of our markets for investment and wealth generation, the educating of our people away from false and ignorant notions and the modernization of our society for the bettering of our society. It may find its roots in Western Democracy, but how is it imperialist to want to create a harmonous and fair democratic system in our country? What do you think Ataturk wanted all along?
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,847
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
Your understanding of politics is very limited. Islamic nationalism and secular nationalism does exist, infact the latter is what we have in our nation currently. How has the view of Turkish superiority benefited us? It created the PKK, it created coups, a lack of Democracy, violation of human rights and the slaughtering of our own citizens.

Liberal Democracy is one of the closest systems in the world to equal representation. Liberalization involves the opening of our markets for investment and wealth generation, the educating of our people away from false and ignorant notions and the modernization of our society for the bettering of our society. It may find its roots in Western Democracy, but how is it imperialist to want to create a harmonous and fair democratic system in our country? What do you think Ataturk wanted all along?


so what else did turkey cause?

asala?*

megalo idea??

lets apologize for the conquest of ''constantınople''

ataturk wanted just peace but also independent natıoanl state for his people

there is nothing like western democracy


democracy is just for themselves

they take it serıously for just their benefits

can you say france was so democrat for algerians

if you think like british you can say

it means if you blind

you can think everything wrong about us

when the french or italıan or german wasnt aware of a natıonal conscıousness
there were turks chinese indians as natıons...

in orhun inscriptions the word turk had alerady been written hundreds years ago
 
Last edited:

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,847
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
You have over-exaggerated your claims about Muslims being opressed in Greece (or as it is commonly known, "Abartma"). They are not systematically egged and mosque's ARE open in Greece. What your saying is a purely fabricated.

I'm also not accusing Turkey of nothing, i'm just saying we have had a past of treating minorities badly.



What?


ohh you call british ' invaders'

you develop yourself day by day kaya!!


are you aware of assimilatiıon of turks in west trachıa kaya??

you forget so many facts but never forgets kurds..


you are like claduıa roth :))

.))

:lol:
:lol:



maybe you should eat so many breads in order to understand ataturk

if there is somebody who exaggrates this is you

you just read western books i think

look there is a world on the aother part of world
 

kaya'08

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 25, 2008
Messages
6,363
Reaction score
1,318
Location
British Turk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
so what else did turkey cause?

asala?*

megalo idea??

lets apologize for the conquest of ''constantınople''

ataturk wanted just peace but also independent natıoanl state for his people

there is nothing like western democracy


democracy is just for themselves

they take it serıously for just their benefits

can you say france was so democrat for algerians

if you think like british you can say

it means if you blind

you can think everything wrong about us

when the french or italıan or german wasnt aware of a natıonal conscıousness
there were turks chinese indians as natıons...

in orhun inscriptions the word turk had alerady been written hundreds years ago

What has this got to do with what i asked?
 

Medusa

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
39,861
Reaction score
7,847
Location
Turkey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
there isnt such natıonalism here.you beleieve that article but dont believe me living in turkey..turkey had to struggle with rightist politics up to now,after Atatürks death,the rightist movement developed in turkey and they tried to bring turkey in to a position what the europenas want us to be both politically and economically..weare tried back to those miserable latest times of ottomans and every principle are eliminated to exploit society.excepting secularism ,because they made these explotations by using secularism. and our people are still sensitive about free and secular life .and now islamists claim ataturk and secular people are elitist,but that was those capital powers of turkey who were elitist....the republicans are those capıtal corporations and their supporter parties...

there cant be islamic natıonalıst too because of the same reasons as ı mentioned.akp is an islamist seeming capitalist party and they abuse islam and does nothing about pkk but about hamas...ı think you understand me...
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom