Greatest American Achievement

[Billo_Really]

What do you think America's greatest acheivement on earth has been?

 

[Befuddled_Stoner]

:lol: unless you think it was faked, landing on the moon never happened on Earth.
I voted for commercialization of electricity because its been a catalyst for most of our greatest innovations.
Although it isn't on the list of choices, the American achievement that I think is the greatest is creating the breast implant. :2razz: For uncounted generations, man had long dreamed of achieving such a wonder; it was the ingenuity of hardworking Americans that made it possible, improving the world for all of mankind :mrgreen:

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I'm going to go with Democracy, allthough Democracy was invented by the Greeks and the Romans and their was a resurgence of Democratic thinking during the enlightenment period it was not until the Founding Fathers put pen to paper in the Declaration of Independence that the resurgence of Democracy really took off.

 

[Thorgasm]

Good question. Nuclear power and bombs may be. We really can't take all the credit for computers, internet, and other integrated chip technology. The assembly line may also have been what thrust us into being a superpower.

 

[vergiss]

Coca-Cola and The X-Files.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Coca-Cola and The X-Files.

This from the country that gave us Paul Hogan and the Crocodile Hunter. :mrgreen:

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

The correct answer isn't on the list.

The correct answer is the creation of a stable government of a free people.

It's not "democracy", because we're a republic. At least we used to be. The greek experiment with democracy was essentially a failure. The American Constitution was an unmitigated success. What failures exist in this country today exist because of departures from that Constitution, and not from failures of the Constitution itself.

 

[vergiss]

This from the country that gave us Paul Hogan and the Crocodile Hunter. :mrgreen:

Damn you! You're forgetting Foster's and Russell Crowe! :2razz:

Besides, I love Coca-Cola and The X-Files.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Damn you! You're forgetting Foster's and Russell Crowe! :2razz:

Besides, I love Coca-Cola and The X-Files.

I actually like the crocodile hunter, "oie I could give her a kiss but then she'd bite me."

And Paul Hogan: "eh that's not a knife . . . this is a knife."

Russel Crow's a prick though but Mel Gibson is cool afterall he gave us Passion of the Christ and Lethal Weapon.

 

[Kandahar]

The correct answer isn't on the list.

The correct answer is the creation of a stable government of a free people.

It's not "democracy", because we're a republic. At least we used to be. The greek experiment with democracy was essentially a failure. The American Constitution was an unmitigated success. What failures exist in this country today exist because of departures from that Constitution, and not from failures of the Constitution itself.

I agree with this. The most important American contribution to the world is the idea that all people should have equality under the law and should not be oppressed by either their government or by other individuals. It's true that various French political philosophers were writing similar things before the US Constitution, but France never really implemented it until much later. The United States showed the world that such a system of government could not only function, but could thrive.

It's true that the United States didn't take these theories to their logical conclusions - the abolition of slavery and equal rights for women - until much later. In fact, we weren't even one of the first countries to do so. But nearly all countries that implemented these policies in the 19th and 20th centuries were heavily influenced by America's Founding Fathers.

 

[Comrade Brian]

I found a problem with some of these:

1. You assume the US even is a democracy, it is quite debateable.
2. Nuclear Weapons achieve nothing but death and destruction, so I would not consider it a great achievement, not to mention the US is the only country to ever use them, and on civilian targets too.
3. In WWI France did almost all of the fighting on the W. Front, next was Britain, then US, and that is only the western Front. There was also Eastern, which was larger too, and one could say there was also a Southern Front.
4. In WWII, the USSR did most of the fighting, and 80% of German casualties were by the Soviets, though however the US was probably the second most-important combatant against Japan, after China.
5. Landing on the Moon was the only real space race victory, besides the reusable shuttle. Soviets dominated space, landing on the Moon pales in comparison.

 

[Thorgasm]

I agree with this. The most important American contribution to the world is the idea that all people should have equality under the law and should not be oppressed by either their government or by other individuals. It's true that various French political philosophers were writing similar things before the US Constitution, but France never really implemented it until much later. The United States showed the world that such a system of government could not only function, but could thrive.

It's true that the United States didn't take these theories to their logical conclusions - the abolition of slavery and equal rights for women - until much later. In fact, we weren't even one of the first countries to do so. But nearly all countries that implemented these policies in the 19th and 20th centuries were heavily influenced by America's Founding Fathers.

It will be a great achievement when all Americans have equal rights. We aren't quite there yet though.

 

[Comrade Brian]

I'm going to go with Democracy, allthough Democracy was invented by the Greeks and the Romans and their was a resurgence of Democratic thinking during the enlightenment period it was not until the Founding Fathers put pen to paper in the Declaration of Independence that the resurgence of Democracy really took off.

The Iroquois could also have been considered a democracy.

Also at first the US wasn't even close, at first only "white" males with private property could vote, it took until the 1920's until all adults could vote. And by then businesses had pretty much control of the country.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The Iroquois could also have been considered a democracy.

Also at first the US wasn't even close, at first only "white" males with private property could vote, it took until the 1920's until all adults could vote. And by then businesses had pretty much control of the country.

So when exactly has there ever been a communist Democracy?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I found a problem with some of these:

1. You assume the US even is a democracy, it is quite debateable.

Actually it's not debatable at all we're a Democratic-Republic case closed. We are Representative of the majority yet protective of the minority there has never been a Communist regime in history that could boast the same only a long series of totalitarian authoritarian regimes led by governments with no respect for the people to whom they are created to serve.

2. Nuclear Weapons achieve nothing but death and destruction, so I would not consider it a great achievement, not to mention the US is the only country to ever use them, and on civilian targets too.

Tell that to the millions of people, both U.S. and Japanese, who would have lost their lives in an invasion of Japan if we had not ended the war quickly and decisively through the use of the A-bomb.

3. In WWI France did almost all of the fighting on the W. Front, next was Britain, then US, and that is only the western Front. There was also Eastern, which was larger too, and one could say there was also a Southern Front.

In WW1 the allies were losing the war the Russians had pulled out and the Germans were on the brink of overruning the French, it was not until the U.S. joined the fray that the tides began to turn.

4. In WWII, the USSR did most of the fighting, and 80% of German casualties were by the Soviets, though however the US was probably the second most-important combatant against Japan, after China.

If we did not support the Chinese, the Russians, and the British through the lend-lease program Germany would have easily over ran the unprepared Eastern Front and taken Moscow with ease and then there would not have been anything standing between Hitler and total victory; furthermore, the allies were losing across the board in Africa, in Asia, and in both Eastern and Western Europe until the U.S. joined the war, China was losing in the Pacific theatre against the Japanese and the Soviets only fought on one front against the Germans not against the Japanese they had a non-aggression pact, the U.S. faught on two fronts, our military industrial output far exceeded any of the other allies, we launched the largest sea and air invasion in the history of the world in operation overlord I.E. the invasion of Normandy, we stopped the Germans in the battle of the bulge, and we decisively ended the war in the Pacific. Not to mention that after victory had been achieved we kept that genocidal maniac Stalin from overrunning Europe and Eastern Asia.

5. Landing on the Moon was the only real space race victory, besides the reusable shuttle. Soviets dominated space, landing on the Moon pales in comparison.

No other country in the world has yet been able to match the feet of putting a man on the moon, putting a man into space is child's play, getting to the moon is what people remember.

 

[Comrade Brian]

So when exactly has there ever been a communist Democracy?

Depends......

There have been early communal forms of govt. that most would say were pretty democratic for their day, some of these have been refered as Ancient Communism.

Or in some present-day communes, which also many times practice a crude-type of communism usually also practice democracy.

Though Modern Communism(as described by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc.) has thus been not achieved yet. Now however some countries have been called "communist" but their underlying principles were nowhere near communism, and were away from socialism in general too.

 

[Thorgasm]

So when exactly has there ever been a communist Democracy?

When exactly, before you, did anyone mention a communist democracy?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Depends......

There have been early communal forms of govt. that most would say were pretty democratic for their day, some of these have been refered as Ancient Communism.

Or in some present-day communes, which also many times practice a crude-type of communism usually also practice democracy.

Though Modern Communism(as described by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc.) has thus been not achieved yet. Now however some countries have been called "communist" but their underlying principles were nowhere near communism, and were away from socialism in general too.

lmfao tribal cultures don't count they were not representative Democracies they were direct Democracies or in other words mob rule. And we've already gone over the reason why Communism described by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc can't evolve into Democratic systems, because without an authoritative state there is no way to dictate which people get what.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Actually it's not debatable at all we're a Democratic-Republic case closed. We are Representative of the majority yet protective of the minority

That is debateable.......

there has never been a Communist regime in history that could boast the same only a long series of totalitarian authoritarian regimes led by governments with no respect for the people to whom they are created to serve.

You are referring to Stalinism, which is quite different from communism.

In WW1 the allies were losing the war the Russians had pulled out, it was not until the U.S. joined the fray that the tides had changed.

Losing? The entire war was virtually a stalemate, except for the Russians, who at first crushed Germany and Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans, except later they eventually collapsed, as in their whole country, and reapetedly too.

If we did not support the Chinese, the Russians, and the British through the lend-lease program Germany would have easily over ran the unprepared Eastern Front and taken Moscow with ease

Probably true, but still that wouldn't equal being the most important overall.

furthermore, the allies were losing across the board in Africa

Not exactly, the Brits did start regaining a bit before the US was there.

in Asia

Chinese were still holding out, esp. through the guerrilla warfare of the Maoists and Nationalists, who shortly before war ended turned on each other.

and in both East and Western Europe until the U.S. joined the war

US didn't fight in E. Front, and W. Front wasn't really started until mid-1944.

China was losing in the Eastern front against the Japanese

China still held out quite well, though wouldn't it be more like W. Front?

the Soviets only fought on one front against the Germans

No, though Germany was their main enemy, the Soviets invaded Japan, and overran Manchuria within a month, also on the E. Front were many Finns, Italians, other E. European peoples and even some Spanish(as Spain was fascist, thanks to help of Hitler and Mussolini, and Stalin basically suppressed much effort towards the anti-fascists).

the U.S. faught on two fronts, our military industrial output far exceeded any of the other allies

Probably true.

we launched the largest sea and air invasion in the history of the world in operation overlord I.E. the invasion of Normandy

Learn your history! Britain and Canada also played large parts with that. Though of course it wasn't largest land invasion, the was Operation Barbarossa, against the USSR.

we stopped the Germans in the battle of the bulge

Yes, same as the Soviets defended the largest urban battle(Stalingrad), largest tank battle(Kursk), and a 900+ day siege of Leningrad.

and we decisively ended the war in the Pacific

Chinese also played a significant roll, as well as other smaller countries and British colonies.

Not to mention that after victory had been achieved we kept that genocidal maniac Stalin from overrunning Europe and Eastern Asia.

True.

No other country in the world has yet been able to match the feet of putting a man on the moon, putting a man into space is child's play, getting to the moon is what people remember.

To Americans it usually is, but they rally lost the space race.

 

[Comrade Brian]

And we've already gone over the reason why Communism described by Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc can't evolve into Democratic systems, because without an authoritative state there is no way to dictate which people get what.

We did?

Also in the future, can we argue about communism in another thread, I don't think it is widely adored, as you brought it up for no reason.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

That is debateable.......

Umm no it's not.

You are referring to Stalinism, which is quite different from communism.

Umm they're the same things non-authoritarian communism is simply impossible that's why no other form of Communism has ever existed.

Losing? The entire war was virtually a stalemate, except for the Russians, who at first crushed Germany and Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans, except later they eventually collapsed, as in their whole country, and reapetedly too.

The whole thing wasn't virtually a stalemate once the U.S. entered the war the Germans surrendered.

Probably true, but still that wouldn't equal being the most important overall.

I don't think so either.

Not exactly, the Brits did start regaining a bit before the US was there.

Ya because of Lend Lease and where were they gaining ground? They were only able to repel the Germans in the battle of Britain not advance on them.

Chinese were still holding out, esp. through the guerrilla warfare of the Maoists and Nationalists, who shortly before war ended turned on each other.

Yes but the Japanese were gaining ground they dominated the entire pacific and all of Eastern Asia, all of Korea, all of French-Indo China (Vietnam). not to mention the Pacific Islands, and the Chinese were on the defensive and like you said the Maoists and Nationalists couldn't even decide who they wanted to fight, themselves or the Japanese.

US didn't fight in E. Front, and W. Front wasn't really started until mid-1944.

We supported the Eastern front through lend lease and if it hadn't been for our support the Nazis would have overrun the Eastern Front. Not to mention that we kept the Germans and Italians tied up on the African front.

China still held out quite well, though wouldn't it be more like W. Front?

I meant the Pacific theatre not the Eastern front.

No, though Germany was their main enemy, the Soviets invaded Japan, and overran Manchuria within a month, also on the E. Front were many Finns, Italians, other E. European peoples and even some Spanish(as Spain was fascist, thanks to help of Hitler and Mussolini, and Stalin basically suppressed much effort towards the anti-fascists).

The Soviets didn't declare war on Japan until Germany had been defeated and only did it once the Americans had already island hopped all the way to Okinawa, it was an opportunist move for conquest made by Stalin this is one of the main reasons we dropped the A-bombs, to keep the Russians from moving into Japan and creating another North/South Korea scenario.

Probably true.

Learn your history! Britain and Canada also played large parts with that. Though of course it wasn't largest land invasion, the was Operation Barbarossa, against the USSR.

I meant the largest invasion by sea and air, and it was Eisenhower who was the Supreme Allied Commander and the U.S. had by far more troops and supplies then any of the other allies combined.

Yes, same as the Soviets defended the largest urban battle(Stalingrad), largest tank battle(Kursk), and a 900+ day siege of Leningrad.

Ya with U.S. military aid through lend-lease.

Chinese also played a significant roll, as well as other smaller countries and British colonies.

True.

To Americans it usually is, but they rally lost the space race.

The turtle and the hair my friend the Russians may have taken an early lead but we're way ahead in the race.

 

[Kandahar]

To Americans it usually is, but they rally lost the space race.

Who cares whether the US or Russia "won" the space race? In the grand scheme of things, is getting to the moon really that impressive? It was a moment for the history books, sure, but the costs of going greatly exceeded the benefits. In fact, there were no scientific benefits aside from a few products developed for the mission itself. The only benefit that I can see is being able to say that humans went to the moon, which is certainly not worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

Space exploration will certainly be more important in the future, but let's not kid ourselves. No one "won" anything in the first few decades of the space program. The number of people who have ever set foot on another world is still in the single digits.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

We did?

Also in the future, can we argue about communism in another thread, I don't think it is widely adored, as you brought it up for no reason.

Err I think so in the what type of conservative are you thread, unless that was Comrade Dave, is their a Comrade Dave or am I thinking of you.

 

[Comrade Brian]

Umm no it's not.

Yes it is.

Umm they're the same things

No they're not.

non-authoritarian communism is simply impossible

The only type of Modern Communism is non-authoritian

that's why no other form of Communism has ever existed.

What are you talking about? Most forms of ancient communism were indeed quite non-authoritive.

The whole thing wasn't virtually a stalemate once the U.S. entered the war the Germans surrendered.

Yeah I'll agree with that, though the US didn't enter until 1917, and the war started in 1914, and ended in 1918, so the US technically didn't do a whole lot of fighting, and the French and Britigh were holding the W. Front.

Ya because of Lend Lease and where were they gaining ground? They were only able to repel the Germans in the battle of Britain not advance on them.

Lend-lease did not just make everyone start winning.

I was talking about Africa, not Battle of Britain.

Yes but the Japanese were gaining ground they dominated the entire pacific and all of Eastern Asia

Nope.

all of Korea

Oh yes, because Russia lost all of their influnce in Manchuria and Korea to Japanese in Russo-Japanese War in 1905, though it wasn't until 1933 til Japan invaded Manchuria.

We supported the Eastern front through lend lease

True, but I said fight.

if it hadn't been for our support the Nazis would have overrun the Eastern Front

Maybe, but probably yes. Though Zhukov's ultra-large Siberian armies were basically the reason for the defense, because when they were managed to get mobilized there, thats when defenses there held up better and later advanced.

Not to mention that we kept the Germans and Italians tied up on the African front.

With ultra-help from the Brits.

meant the largest invasion by sea and air

I never doubted that, I merely said it wasn't largest land.

and it was Eisenhower who was the Supreme Allied Commander

Yes, he was.

the U.S. had by far more troops and supplies then any of the other allies combined.

Are you trying to play fool? The USSR had by far more than anyone else, though not combined, but you said US had more than rest combined.

Ya with U.S. military aid through lend-lease.

But that wasn't what really got them all through, it played a part, though nowhere near the majority part.

The turtle and the hair my friend the Russians may have taken an early lead but we're way ahead in the race.

Thats why NASA has just been using Russian craft? Because some of their shutlles blew up?

Who cares whether the US or Russia "won" the space race?

Actually, I don't, I was critiqueing one of the poll options.

Err I think so in the what type of conservative are you thread

Yeah that debate was with me, but neither of us got anywhere.

unless that was Comrade Dave, is their a Comrade Dave or am I thinking of you.

Who the hell is "Comrade Dave", or do you mean Red Dave? Who I believe said he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yes it is.

No they're not.

The only type of Modern Communism is non-authoritian

What are you talking about? Most forms of ancient communism were indeed quite non-authoritive.

Yeah I'll agree with that, though the US didn't enter until 1917, and the war started in 1914, and ended in 1918, so the US technically didn't do a whole lot of fighting, and the French and Britigh were holding the W. Front.

Lend-lease did not just make everyone start winning.

I was talking about Africa, not Battle of Britain.

Nope.

Oh yes, because Russia lost all of their influnce in Manchuria and Korea to Japanese in Russo-Japanese War in 1905, though it wasn't until 1933 til Japan invaded Manchuria.

True, but I said fight.

Maybe, but probably yes. Though Zhukov's ultra-large Siberian armies were basically the reason for the defense, because when they were managed to get mobilized there, thats when defenses there held up better and later advanced.

With ultra-help from the Brits.

I never doubted that, I merely said it wasn't largest land.

Yes, he was.

Are you trying to play fool? The USSR had by far more than anyone else, though not combined, but you said US had more than rest combined.

But that wasn't what really got them all through, it played a part, though nowhere near the majority part.

Thats why NASA has just been using Russian craft? Because some of their shutlles blew up?

Actually, I don't, I was critiqueing one of the poll options.

Yeah that debate was with me, but neither of us got anywhere.

Who the hell is "Comrade Dave", or do you mean Red Dave? Who I believe said he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

Alright fine let's just say we all kicked the **** out of the Nazis equally . . . except for the French, the French are puss!es.

But WE won the Cold War so na na nana na