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Gravity defies tower collapse explanation (1 Viewer)

tenseconds

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Its over folks. The severed part of the twin towers cannot expel voluminous amounts of microscopic dust particles and crash down into the rest of the structure in ten seconds. This is physically impossible.

Pleaase refer to http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

Observations from 9/11

On page 305 of the 9/11 Commission Report, we are told, in the government's "complete and final report" of 9/11, that the South Tower collapsed in 10 seconds. (That's the government's official number. Videos confirm that it fell unnaturally, if not precisely that, fast. See for yourself: QT Real)

But as we've just determined, that's free-fall time. That's close to the free-fall time in a vacuum, and an exceptionally rapid free-fall time through air.

But the "collapse" proceeded "through" the lower floors of the tower. Those undamaged floors below the impact zone would have offered resistance that is thousands of times greater than air. Recall that those lower floors had successfully supported the mass of the tower for 30 years.

Air can't do that.

Can anyone possibly imagine the undamaged lower floors getting out of the way of the upper floors as gracefully and relatively frictionlessly as air would? Can anyone possibly imagine the undamaged lower floors slowing the fall of the upper floors less than would, say, a parachute?

It is beyond the scope of the simple, but uncontested, physics in this presentation to tell you how long the collapse should have taken. Would it have taken minutes? Hours? Days? Forever?

Perhaps. But what is certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, is that the towers could not have collapsed gravitationally, through intact lower floors, as rapidly as was observed on 9/11.

Not even close!

Because, as you may recall, not only was much energy expended in causing the observed massive high-speed sideways ejections, but virtually all the glass and concrete was "pulverized" -- actually "dissociated" is a much better word. (Nevermind what happened to all the supporting steel core columns...!!!) And the energy requirements to do anything even remotely like that rival the total amount of potential energy that the entire tower had to give. (source) So while gravity is nearly strong enough to cause some things to fall that far, through air, in the observed interval, and while gravity is probably not strong enough to have so thoroughly disintegrated the towers under their own weight, gravity is certainly not strong enough to have done both at once.


Conclusions

In order for the tower to have collapsed "gravitationally", as we've been told over and over again, in the observed duration, one or more of the following zany-sounding conditions must have been met:

The undamaged floors below the impact zone offered zero resistance to the collapse
The glass and concrete spontaneously disintegrated without any expenditure of energy
On 9/11, gravity was much stronger than gravity
On 9/11, energy was not conserved
However, none of these physics-violating conditions can be accounted for by the official government conspiracy theory of 9/11, nor by any of the subsequent analyses designed to prop up the official theory of 9/11.

Bottom line: the government/PBS/PM/SA explanation for the WTC collapses fails the most basic conservation-of-energy reality check. Therefore the government/PBS/PM/SA theory does not fit the observed facts; the notion of a "pancake collapse" cannot account for what happened. The "pancake collapse theory" explanation is impossible, and thus absurd.

It is utterly impossible for a "gravitational collapse" to proceed so destructively through a path of such great resistance in anywhere near free-fall times. This fact debunks the preposterous contention that the observed WTC collapses can be blamed solely upon damages resulting from aerial assaults.

So, to the extent that people accept the ridiculous "pancake collapse" explanation, Gates' other premise, that people know what they saw, is also incorrect. It is left to the reader to decide if his conclusion, which was based upon two incorrect presumptions, is also flawed.

The purported "gravitational" collapse (video) of World Trade Center building 7, which was hit by zero aircraft, and which also vertically collapsed in within a second of free-fall-time-in-a-vacuum later that same day, similarly fails this same conservation-of-energy analysis.

The explanation for how and why so many highly-accredited and credentialed people all so miserably failed to check the "pancake collapse" theory, by giving it this basic reality check, is beyond the scope of this simple physics discussion. :mrgreen:

http://www.911blimp.net/graphics/suspendedWTCtop1.gif
 
Huh? What's your point?
 
here is what I found:

NIST's Investigation of the Sept. 11 World Trade Center Disaster - Frequently Asked Questions

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.
 
tenseconds said:
I've already made my point. What's yours?

my point is that the resistence of the building/air pressure was insignificant compared to the force of the falling tower.
 
star2589 said:
my point is that the resistence of the building/air pressure was insignificant compared to the force of the falling tower.

9 seconds and eleven seconds is free fall time. That means that the top sections of the buildings fell through the bottom portions as if they weren't even there. This is physically impossible. The bottom portions of the buildings would have offered significant resistance to the top sections. Thousands more times than air.

Also bear in mind that the top portions created tremendous clouds of pulverized materials moving at 30 miles an hour. This requires a tremendous transferance of potential energy(gravitational fall) to kinetic energy(the incredible pulverization of cement,gypsum,computers,furniture etc).
 
tenseconds said:
9 seconds and eleven seconds is free fall time.

free fall time is 9.8 seconds for a distance of 471 meters. so, 9 seconds is physically impossible unless there was something else pushing the building down, which I dont think you are even suggesting. 11 seconds is certainly possible though, and one must keep in mind that all the fall times are estimations because there was too much smoke and dust to clearly see anything.
 
I'm still not getting your point.
They were hit by planes.
They fell down.
They didn't fall up, I know that....
Let's not forget that each consequential floor during the collapse added more weight to the falling structure. This 'article' is talking like a roof made the mess....not quite.
Also, the buildings didn't fall completely flat like pancakes-they started by collapsing in, like a fallen soufflet, adding weight as they fell. The structure was a reverse 'balloon' type, with vertical interior supports. Crossbeams were not designed to support the entire weight, they were designed to support the floors and keep the buildings square, a 20/20 hindsight of error in integrity, but the cost and weight of making individually supported stories in buildings of that magnitude was not possible.
GA4_side_640x480.jpg

source

But I still don't get your point of debate....
 
Your are not taking in to account the amount of energy transference needed to pulverize all the building's materials OUTWARD and sideways and upwards at such tremendous velocity or as you say inwards into miniscule particles. This would have dramatically dissipated the gravitational energy downward.

There would have been resistance,if even only a fraction of a second. Each floor had a weight bearing load 5 times its normal capacity. 9 or 11 seconds does not account for this.

The South Tower top section angled 20 degrees which would have created an assymetrical collapse. But the lower floors of the top section began disintegrating.before their descendency and the floors just below already had begun to pulverize.

Pulverization of the floors begins instantaneously just below the collapse of equal velocity as to what you see later in the collapse. Thats a lot of kinetic energy from a fourteen foot drop!

You would have observed a sagging of the towers at the points of least resistance. There wasn't any.

The force was so great that sections of core columns speared themselves into adjacent buildings.

William Rodriguez,WTC North janitor and great hero experienced blasts coming upward from the basement floors prior to the plane's entry by ten seconds or so.



I'll stop there...for now.
 
And you're still not answering the question....
What is your point? What difference does it make how they fell?...they fell. Airplanes hit them and they fell.
People died.
People are STILL dying as a result.
I live less than 45 miles from NYC....the dust and odors blew over our town...the stench was unbelievable....
Whatever your point is, I fail to see it.
 
The buildings were constructed to withstand the impact of a commercial airliner fully fueled the size of a 767. There was a high level of redundancy in the column construction specifically to counter such a scenario.

There were 47 core columns in each building to bear the weight of the floors. This was misrepresented by the 911 Commission. They state that there was a shaft in the middle of the building that contained elevators and stairwells putting the load on the perimeter columns. A flat out lie. Why did they do this?To convince the public of the feasibility of a total collapse?

The copious amount of dark smoke spewing from the North Tower suggests a low temperature fire. Of the column sections tested for heat only three were in the 250C range.

The falling in of the building you refer to are the walls that lost any support due to the removal of the core columns and the floors via explosives and some type of thermate probably super thermate to cut through the steel columns which has explosive properties.

My main point is that the amount of energy to produce what we saw that day far excedes what a gravitational collapse can generate. Thus the necessary dissipation of gravitational energy unable to cause a total collapse in 9 or 11 seconds. That would be physically impossible.The energy produced by the gravitational fall of the upper sections would be extremely diverted by the pulverization of everything in the buildings minus the columns.

My second main point is that the resistance to the top floors by the bottom floors would have extended the collapse time of the buildings by an inestimable amount of time far beyond 9 or 11 seconds.

Your point that the collapse would have accelerated as it proceeds stands in line with the basic laws of gravity. But...you must consider the above factors. Resistance by the lower floors and the energy used up to pulverize the contents.

9 or 11 seconds is free fall time with no resistance except air. In fact 9 seconds is free fall time in a vacuum. You surely can't believe that the lower floors would have the same resistance as air?
 
I can see I'm not making my query very clear....
what difference does it make HOW it fell down? It has nothing to do with WHY it was put in the position of collapsing in the first place.
WT was attacked as a direct attack on the US by terrorists. They chose the most (in their minds at least) ostentatious representations of the US and attacked them.
So, I will try one more time....what is the point of this? What does it have to do with anything?
The dark smoke statement might work if it was just a fireplace...are you aware of the chemicals, the furniture, etc., that burned? Only time I've seen a white smoke fire is a brush fire. Wood was the least of their issues. Are you a fire marshall? An investigator? What smoke suggests and what it is are two different things.
Who says the buildings were designed to withstand ANY collision?
As far as the collapse being in 10 seconds being deemed impossible....uh, it happened. Let's do this...let's drop a 1 ton anvil on your head and see if, by bracing yourself firmly on the ground, you can NOT collapse in 10 seconds...that's what it amounts to. We'll even let you hold onto a door frame.:mrgreen:
If what you think you're doing is saying the footage was somehow 'doctored', wrong...maybe out there in California you didn't get live views, here, we did.

See ya.
 
It seems pretty clear to me that he's saying it wasn't just the planes that brought the towers down. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here) that explosives on the lower levels were used in conjunction with the planes, and the evidence of explosive use was covered up.
 
Maybe you should try your anvil experiment on the 45% of New Yorkers who don't believe the government's explanation.

Then go to the library and read up on basic physics.
 
Monkey Mind said:
It seems pretty clear to me that he's saying it wasn't just the planes that brought the towers down. He's saying (correct me if I'm wrong here) that explosives on the lower levels were used in conjunction with the planes, and the evidence of explosive use was covered up.
Oh, that's just Bullchit. Just like that stupid story about the hijacker's 'luggage' not making it on the plane. Why would someone who's gonna crash a plane deliberately need luggage??:screwy

Mr. ten: back up the 45%(which, according to 4th grade math, is less than half).
 
ngdawg said:
Oh, that's just Bullchit. Just like that stupid story about the hijacker's 'luggage' not making it on the plane. Why would someone who's gonna crash a plane deliberately need luggage??:screwy

Mr. ten: back up the 45%(which, according to 4th grade math, is less than half).

Physics is "bullchit"? Hmmm...enlighten me some more
 
Who said physics is bullchit? Read the post again. Or are you another one who follows thread chains instead of just reading in order?
Besides, I quoted what I was responding to. Your 'governmental conspiracy' outlook is the only bullchit here. You've provided NO backup to your mentions of construction and the only link you provided was to a conspiracy paranoia thread which works on an insane hypothesis of 'air resistance'.:roll:
Cement is heavier than air and will win any challenge to it. It's called 'gravity'.
 
tenseconds said:
Physics is "bullchit"? Hmmm...enlighten me some more

moz-screenshot.jpg
moz-screenshot-1.jpg

wtctower.gif
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2177461121


That's the North Tower. Notice how the material that has been blown out and is free falling is falling faster than the building itself? By a substantial amount.


The estimated speed of it's collapse was 12 seconds at 125mph. In freefall with no resitience it would have taken 8 seconds at a speed of 186 mph.

"Debunking 9/11 Myths" panel 14 for the numbers.
 
The energy to create those high velocity clouds of dust far exceeds the potential energy in a gravitational collapse
 
tenseconds said:
The energy to create those high velocity clouds of dust far exceeds the potential energy in a gravitational collapse

Those aren't high velocity clouds, that is debris that is free-falling and I note you ignored what I was pointing out. The free-falling debris is falling faster than the building is which wasn't free-falling.
 
Stinger said:
Those aren't high velocity clouds, that is debris that is free-falling and I note you ignored what I was pointing out. The free-falling debris is falling faster than the building is which wasn't free-falling.

What you pointed out is immaterial due to the inability for the top section to produce the falling debris in such massive amounts in the first place. It requires too much kinetic energy. The top section would have stopped dead in its tracks to produce such a phenomenon. This you ignored from my previous comment.

The flurries of dust were moving at approximately 30 miles an hour through lower Manhattan. No gravitational collapse is going to produce such violent energy.
 
tenseconds said:
What you pointed out is immaterial due to the inability for the top section to produce the falling debris in such massive amounts in the first place.

It obviously did produce the amount and what you are saying is a baseless assertion. But where did the debris come from then?

It requires too much kinetic energy. The top section would have stopped dead in its tracks to produce such a phenomenon.

They didn't did they, they did have enough kinetic energy to cause such damage in that already damaged building.

As the pictures shows the debris that is free falling is clearly falling faster than the building itself.

The flurries of dust were moving at approximately 30 miles an hour through lower Manhattan. No gravitational collapse is going to produce such violent energy.

Yes it will and it did.
 
That dust, along with the residual odors travelled even further than lower Manhattan; we got it 2 days later, 35 miles away and further.

Try reading something NOT borne out of some paranoid tin-topped head. You can start here: WTC collapse
 
Stinger said:
It obviously did produce the amount and what you are saying is a baseless assertion. But where did the debris come from then?



They didn't did they, they did have enough kinetic energy to cause such damage in that already damaged building.

As the pictures shows the debris that is free falling is clearly falling faster than the building itself.



Yes it will and it did.

How is it a baseless assertion?

The tops fell down at free fall speed because the columns and floors below were being blown out preceding it.

The debris is falling faster than the top sections because of the high velocity of the explosives that sent them out there in the first place.
 

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