Can't agree more. AZ lawmakers may challenge the "anchor" baby situation. They may try and pass a law where illegal babies born in AZ would not get a birth certificate. Some are saying the 14th admendment has been misused beyond the orginal intent.
"The 14th amendment was never meant to reward illegal aliens with the jackpot grand prize of becoming a parent of a new American citizen who would then serve as immunity and insulation from punishment for violation of U.S. immigration laws and an anchor in the U.S. welfare state."
Indeed, but I bet the problem never came inherently from the idea of being born here == American citizen, but the exploitation that allows the parents to become legals. You can close the loophole without completely eliminating automatic citizenshop upon birth, and IMO we should.
Furthermore, this underscores the Ouroborean nature of the efforts to stop undocumented immigration by massive deportations: people are going to come back. It's laughably stupid to expect a family that risked a hell of a lot to get here in the first place would sit down on the other side of the border and say "Oh darn, they caught us! Guess we cant go back!" I mean seriously, ask yourself, if you were in that position where hopping the border illegally was the best and fastest way to make money for your family, would deportation stop you? I know sure as **** my ass would be headed for the border the second my feet touched the ground in my home country.
These sayings that are repeated so often, "A family unit is the best thing for children and for society" dont seem to apply once a person is unable to afford citizenship in the country of your choice.
Do you have another solution?I know that this is not your first anti-illegal immigration thread you posted and I know you watch the news so you are aware of how states like Arizona and Oklahoma and Arizona handle their illegal immigration problem. So why do you still pretend as though mass deportation is the only solution that those who are against illegal immigration have to offer?
Do you have another solution?
Your four options are not the only thing people have been suggesting and you know it.The way I see it, you have four options.
1. Keep doing what we've been doing. That's shown to be expensive and entirely in-effective.
2. Widespread deportation of any and all undocumented immigrants. Again, in-effective and expensive.
.3. Start shooting people. I dont even need to comment on how bad an idea that is
4. Amnesty.
Yes we can make dozens more rules about employing undocumented workers and encourage reporting. But that's not going to do very much. There are millions of undocumented workers and many employers willing to ignore labor laws or turn a blind eye to fake identification papers to get cheap labor.
More rules is not going to help you.
Is there any indication that it's working?States simply doing what Arizona and Oklahoma have done and enforcing those laws would probably be enough to drive most illegals out.
Why? That has nothing to do with undocumented immigration.But here some of my solutions-
Repeal the part of the Immigration and nationality act of 1965 that allows for the chain migration of relatives other than spouse or minor children.
Good luck getting that to pass the legislature. You'll get called a "commie" for wanting to confiscate things from a business and promptly ignored.Make those who hire illegals subject the same Asset forfeiture and seizure laws that drug dealers,mobsters and other criminals are subject to. This would encourage law enforcement to crack down on dishonest businesses that hire illegals
And in instances where an employer didnt know such as an immigrant having fake identification information?Make those who hire illegals subject to heavy fines as well as prison time.
How do you plan on enforcing this?Make those who aid illegals subject to prison time and heavy fines.Regardless if it a law maker trying to give benifits to illegals or someone transporting their aunt who is an illegal alien or someone picking up a so called day laborer or someone housing or employing illegals.
Its possible, but again you're going to face resistance from the banks. Also, it wont stop middle-man services springing up and enforcement with the smaller money wiring services will be next to impossible.Require that banks and money wiring services verify the legal status of those who do business with them.
And watch as a veritable legal free-for-all ensues as ANYONE making minimum wage steps forward to try and claim it.Allow those whose wages have been depressed because of illegal to sue dishonest businesses that hire illegals.
They're the only realistic options.Your four options are not the only thing people have been suggesting and you know it.
Where do you expect the money for all this new enforcement to come from?Token enforcement has never worked. Which is what the federal government has been doing.
As long as our economy remains somewhat successful there will always be incentive for coming here.I agree, unless the border is secured or the incentives for coming here is removed all deportation becomes is nothing more than a free bus or plane ticket home.
Poke your head into a Minnuteman forum or chat and ask what they think ought to happen to people crossing the border.I do not think anyone has suggested that happen inside the US.
It was a half-assed effort and you know it.Amnesty should never be a solution seeing how it was tried in the mid 80s and all it did was encourage the 12-20 million + illegals that we have now.
I contend they will be expensive to enforce and end up not actually helping the problem. Also, the people who are NOT undocumented will strongly resist many of them.Then you should have no problem with those laws then.
Is there any indication that it's working?
Why? That has nothing to do with undocumented immigration.
Good luck getting that to pass the legislature. You'll get called a "commie" for wanting to confiscate things from a business and promptly ignored.
And in instances where an employer didnt know such as an immigrant having fake identification information?
How do you plan on enforcing this?
Its possible, but again you're going to face resistance from the banks. Also, it wont stop middle-man services springing up and enforcement with the smaller money wiring services will be next to impossible.
And watch as a veritable legal free-for-all ensues as ANYONE making minimum wage steps forward to try and claim it.
These are nice ideas, but you are going to spend so much money trying to keep these rules enforced that any money you save will be immediately pissed away and it'll cost you more to try and fix the problem than the problem was actually costing you.
Amnesty is not a realistic option since it will only increase illegal immigration.They're the only realistic options.
How much do you really think it will cost a police officer, bank employee or who ever else to look up information on a computer how much do you really think it will cost to send a officer posing as an illegal to walk into a bank or money wiring service? Surely this can't be any more expensive that schooling for the children of illegals,welfare for those whose wages were depreciated due to illegals, the cost of incarcerating illegals who commit crimes other than illegal immigration, the cost of social services(California seems to think 4-5 billion on illegals is not one of the reasons they are in the red) Surely it can't be more expensive than legalizing 12-20 million + illegals and out illegal immigration problem triple in 20 years.Where do you expect the money for all this new enforcement to come from?
As long as our economy remains somewhat successful there will always be incentive for coming here.
Poke your head into a Minnuteman forum or chat and ask what they think ought to happen to people crossing the border.
It was a half-assed effort and you know it.
I contend they will be expensive to enforce and end up not actually helping the problem. Also, the people who are NOT undocumented will strongly resist many of them.
Ok, I know this is a sensitive subject, but can we do without the bigotry? Thanks.I do not know about Arizona but I do know that with Oklahoma the local news they do the occasional boo hoo we need illegals stories., Look how since all the undocumented immigrants left they took their kids with them and now these schools may not get as much money, look how the Mexican supermarkets and other businesses are not as busy as they used to be before HB1804, and all sorts of other bull **** stories once in a while.
It's also used by LEGAL immigrants to establish themselves.Anchor babies have a lot to do with illegal immigration. Removing this provision would eliminate anchor babies and since a child born to an illegal can not facilitate the immigration of a relative other than a spouse or minor children then that will be one less incentive for someone to come here illegally.
Does that logic ever work? I mean EVER?If a business is honest then they have nothing to worry about from this law.
If a business is honest then they will not have to worry about these lawsuits.
Ok, but that still doesnt protect him. Is it going to be like statutory rape where you get nailed even if she SAID she was over 18 and had a fake driver's license to prove it?An employer should have paper work showing that he verified the legal status of his or her employees.
That's not enforcement. I meant how do you have law enforcement make sure this rule is being followed?Easy, if they are caught then toss their ass in jail,charge them and have trial.
Ok, you watch too much COPS. Operations like that dont go down very often and are usually done only in large metro areas by a special team in the police department. How do you plan to check every building site, contractor, fruit farmer, and factory in the US?If law enforcement can do bait cars and john stings then they can most certainly have a law enforcement official pose as an illegal to see if these places are abiding by the law.
I'm guessing you meant SHOULDN'T, and my argument here isnt about expense, it's about people being willing to cooperate. Undocumented immigrants dont go to big banks to wire money, they go to small, hole-in-the-wall places or Western Union.It should cost much to have a banker, law enforcement or anyone else look up information in a computer.Seeing how it will discourage illegal immigration that means no 12-20 + million illegals in this country or their children or anchor babies.
How? To get it you have to prove you were in the US and working before a certain date. I've heard many things attributed to undocumented immigrants but the power to distort space and time is not one of them.Amnesty is not a realistic option since it will only increase illegal immigration.
That still doesnt explain where we're going to get the money for it. You cant pay officers with IOUsHow much do you really think it will cost a police officer, bank employee or who ever else to look up information on a computer how much do you really think it will cost to send a officer posing as an illegal to walk into a bank or money wiring service? Surely this can't be any more expensive that schooling for the children of illegals,welfare for those whose wages were depreciated due to illegals, the cost of incarcerating illegals who commit crimes other than illegal immigration, the cost of social services
I know it isnt. The biggest reason is we tend to not vote for taxes required to pay for the things we vote yes on.(California seems to think 4-5 billion on illegals is not one of the reasons they are in the red)
Considering the tax revenue we'd get from the new citizens, it's a lot cheaper than chasing them.Surely it can't be more expensive than legalizing 12-20 million + illegals and out illegal immigration problem triple in 20 years.
Yeah, by decimating our economy. Good luck selling that.Incentives for coming here illegally can always be removed.
Either or.Attempting to cross the border or already here in the US?
Can I borrow your crystal ball of future seeing? I need some lotto numbers.Which is what any new amnesty will be hald-assed. Meaning the half of the agreement upheld is the amnesty while the enforcement part gets ignored or amended out.
Really? So all the Americans out of work right now will just ignore those jobs, right? Please. If you think that are economy can't function without illegal immigrants you have not done enough research about the issue.Yeah, by decimating our economy. Good luck selling that.
I agree that our proposition system in CA is a bad system. But those 3 million illegal immigrants aren't paying income taxes on the money they make. If they were all legal workers with minimum wage of $8 an hour and they worked 5 8-hour days per week 11 months out of the year, and that income was taxed, then CA would get 7 billion dollars more in tax revenue each year. And that is a very conservative estimate, as many estimate around 10.5 billion. So it isn't pocket change, and it is a problem.I know it isnt. The biggest reason is we tend to not vote for taxes required to pay for the things we vote yes on.
They sure as hell wont work those jobs for what undocumented immigrants are getting paid.Really? So all the Americans out of work right now will just ignore those jobs, right? Please. If you think that are economy can't function without illegal immigrants you have not done enough research about the issue.
A problem easily fixed with provisionary visas and taxed incomeI agree that our proposition system in CA is a bad system. But those 3 million illegal immigrants aren't paying income taxes on the money they make. If they were all legal workers with minimum wage of $8 an hour and they worked 5 8-hour days per week 11 months out of the year, and that income was taxed, then CA would get 7 billion dollars more in tax revenue each year. And that is a very conservative estimate, as many estimate around 10.5 billion. So it isn't pocket change, and it is a problem.
Ok, I know this is a sensitive subject, but can we do without the bigotry? Thanks.
It is still a lie to say it has nothing to do with illegal immigration.It's also used by LEGAL immigrants to establish themselves.
Does that logic ever work? I mean EVER?
By that logic, the cops should be allowed to search your home whenever they want. I mean, if you're honest then you have nothing to worry about, right?
Ok, but that still doesnt protect him. Is it going to be like statutory rape where you get nailed even if she SAID she was over 18 and had a fake driver's license to prove it?
That's not enforcement. I meant how do you have law enforcement make sure this rule is being followed?
First you would start with the reported businesses, then the usual suspects like farms, lawn maintenance companies, construction companies, hotels, "day labor sites" and etc and then just random businesses.Ok, you watch too much COPS.Operations like that dont go down very often and are usually done only in large metro areas by a special team in the police department. How do you plan to check every building site, contractor, fruit farmer, and factory in the US?
I'm guessing you meant SHOULDN'T, and my argument here isnt about expense, it's about people being willing to cooperate. Undocumented immigrants dont go to big banks to wire money, they go to small, hole-in-the-wall places or Western Union.
How? To get it you have to prove you were in the US and working before a certain date.I've heard many things attributed to undocumented immigrants but the power to distort space and time is not one of them.
That still doesnt explain where we're going to get the money for it. You cant pay officers with IOUs
I know it isnt. The biggest reason is we tend to not vote for taxes required to pay for the things we vote yes on.
Considering the tax revenue we'd get from the new citizens, it's a lot cheaper than chasing them.
Yeah, by decimating our economy. Good luck selling that.
I am going by they did the Reagan amnesty, how they have token raids, purposely not secure the border, purposely inadequately man the border, cry foul anytime a state does something about the problem, toss the president of Mexico's salad while bashing states that do something about illegal immigration can call a group that is the equivalent to a neighbor hood watch a bunch of vigilantes . Only a ****en moron would believe that it would be different with another amnesty. Fortunately most people are not Bart Stupack.Can I borrow your crystal ball of future seeing? I need some lotto numbers.
I have to stop for a moment and reflect on the mantras repeated so often around the ideas of divorce, gay marriage and adoption, or single parenting. These sayings that are repeated so often, "A family unit is the best thing for children and for society" dont seem to apply once a person is unable to afford citizenship in the country of your choice.
Furthermore, this underscores the Ouroborean nature of the efforts to stop undocumented immigration by massive deportations: people are going to come back. It's laughably stupid to expect a family that risked a hell of a lot to get here in the first place would sit down on the other side of the border and say "Oh darn, they caught us! Guess we cant go back!" I mean seriously, ask yourself, if you were in that position where hopping the border illegally was the best and fastest way to make money for your family, would deportation stop you? I know sure as **** my ass would be headed for the border the second my feet touched the ground in my home country.
They sure as hell wont work those jobs for what undocumented immigrants are getting paid.
A problem easily fixed with provisionary visas and taxed income
Do you have another solution?
It has been misused beyond its orignal intent. If it meant anyone born on US soil then they would have never needed to create the Indian citizenship act of 1924 and the nationality act of 1940.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
-14th Amendment to the United States Constitution
Notice the part in bold which also means they have to be subject to the jurisdiction theorof, not just born here. Which is why the Indian citizenship act of 1924 and the nationality act of 1940 were created to ensure that those born here were natural born citizens.