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GOP and the Health Care Mandate: They were for it before they were against it!

it would be as cheap as the 70+ trillion dollar unfunded medicare liability. when government takes over healthcare, two things happen; cost explodes the budget and quality of care goes down.

nor would raising income tax rates help. people tend to shield their compensationfrom taxation, and the higher the rates, the more they do so. the result is a fairly consistent revenue level of 18-19% of GDP.

wsj-tax-revenue-chart-ed-ah556b_ranso_20080519194014.gif


furthermore, even if you discount the tax-sheltering factor, an ruthlessly maximized every major tax we have, we still couldn't even cover CURRENT levels of spending; much less with a massively expensive, economy-distorting entitlement added on.

All the more reason for everyone to be insured and to pay for their own health care. Granted, subsidies would be provided for the poorest of Americans, but the law does stipulate that those subsidies are for a limited time. Eventually, everyone would have to pay for their own health insurance out of their own pockets. Again, I see this as a good thing overall. I mean, aren't Republicans/Conservatives constantly arguing against "entitlement programs" and the government creating "nanny states"? The problem here might be that too many people aren't forward-looking/forward-thinking enough and, as such, can't think beyond their own partisan blinders.
 
All the more reason for everyone to be insured and to pay for their own health care. Granted, subsidies would be provided for the poorest of Americans

we already have coverage for the poorest of Americans: it's called Medicaid. what the subsidies do is attempt to make this into a middle class entitlement. the "poorest Americans" at 400% of the poverty level? :roll: so a family of four making only $88,000 a year??? oh those poor dears..... how do they eat?

Eventually, everyone would have to pay for their own health insurance out of their own pockets.

:lamo yeah. and eventually the Great Society will end poverty :D

Again, I see this as a good thing overall.

we are attempting to force insurance agencies to function as entitlements / charities. it's going to fail, and the insurance companies with them. now, there are people who see that as a good thing; mostly those who want to sieze that opportunity to push for single-payer.

I mean, aren't Republicans/Conservatives constantly arguing against "entitlement programs" and the government creating "nanny states"?

yes. that is one of the many reasons why we are against this new one.
 
incidentally, if you want to compare the laughable claim that the cost curve will bend down (the CBO has already announced that it is, in fact, bending upwards), you may check out what has happened in the Good State of Massachussetts; which has enacted a very similar reform of their own.


give you a hint: prices are way, way up.
 
I wanted to come back to this thread since the GOP in both chambers of Congress have decided to try and keep their promise to repeal the health care reform law. I'm surprised I hadn't come across this video sooner.

The video is from the Racheal Maddow show from March 2010 which illustrates how the two GOP orchestrators of the individual mandate, Senator's Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley, were both for the mandate 17 years under HillaryCare - Grassley as recent as 2009, in fact - yet both are against it now.

Folks should watch the video and hear the explanation(s) they give. It's quite comical!

Just to get the record straight...

Sen.'s Hatch and Grassley, both career politicians who have been in Congress for years and who have access to Justice Department legal counsel to interpret the constitutionality of a specific provision they proposed to a bill, did not see fit to seak said advice from such counsel to determine the constitutionality of their proposal? Instead, they both claim "they didn't really think about it back then". So, now that their idea was made part of a law that actually stood a chance of being passed (and it did), now they have second thoughts about the constitutionality of the provision?

Think about that for a moment, folks...

I'm not referring to a few Republicans who just jumped on the "repeal health care/kill the individual mandate" bandwagon. I'm talking about the two GOP members who conceived of the mandate in the first place!

Watch the video...listen to the excuses given and tell me if you really believe their sincerity. I don't.

(BTW, 2012 Presidential hopeful, Mitt Romney, is also in the video. Listen to his support for a "national individual health care mandate"...in his run-up to the 2008 Presidential Primaries. I've linked to a second standalone video of Sen. Hatch providing his excuse for changing his opinion on the mandate as an FYI. Talk about flip-floppers. :doh)
 
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This is so true. I was actually listening on NPR and one of the callers was discussing this. I was not aware of it, since I was not able to vote when Clinton was in office, but true none-the-less. The best part is that most conservatives still do agree with most parts of the mandate. I suppose the only part they do not agree with anymore is the actual mandate, but then the entire bill does not work. By the law of large numbers, without forcing everyone into paying, the new rules could not be put into effect without bankrupting insurance companies.

Basically, conservatives want to fix it, but they can't figure out a way to do it that doesn't cause them to step on their own toes.
 
as a conservative i believe that liberty is preserved when the state is constrained. I do not see anywhere in the Constitution where we the People gave to Congress the authority to determine for us whether or not our arrangements for our own healthcare met with their approval.

This isn't the point at all! It's not whether or not the government cares what type of health insurance you purchase, but rather to ensure that the health insurance you do purchase has the same level of essential standard benefits as the next guy. Why is this important? Because it levels the playing field of private health insurance companies making sure they all provide the same basic health insurance policies to consumers all state (and regional) insurance markets. Until the reform bill was signed into law, you had various insurance companies offerring different benefits in various basic packages. On the surface, one could say that an insurance policy purchased in Maine isn't necessarily influenced by the same market flucuations in California. This analogy would be true. But as we all know, insurance markets are smaller; they fall into state or regional markets and, as such, health insurance offered in one segment of a marketplace can be (and usually is) different in another segment of that same market. Thus, you have various "standard" policies offerred from the same insurer at different prices. Some would say that's fair...if you don't like the price shop around. But therein lay the problem.

For most working Americans, our health insurance is tied into our jobs! If we leave our jobs, we lose those health benefits. And it's not as if we can drop our employer coverage and shop around. We could, but the cost would be gia-NORMOUS! Why? Because many state laws (and I assume federal as well) prohibit the purchase of health (and auto) insurance across state lines. Therefore, those individuals in states (such as AL where I live) with one or two major insurance carriers are stuck with that insurance "monopoly" to deal with. Move to another state you say? Not that easy, pal.

You see, insurance companies have this thing call "open enrollment" when health insurance is offered through our employers. If you change jobs prior to the enrollment period, most new employees are subject to a waiting period before the insurance at their new job kicks in. And whose to know exactly how long that waiting period between jobs and acceptance into the new insurance group pool will take? A month? Two months? Three months?

Get COBRA in the interim you say? Too damned costly...almost X2 the cost of employer-sponsored insurance. And when you're unemployed either at your own choosing or because you were laid off or fired, it's difficult affording the cost of health insurance without a job (or if you've exhausted your savings in the meantime). But these are real-life issues many Americans face every day.

As a Conservative, I recognize the economic futility of the stated intentions of this bill. I recognize that when you interfere with the operation of free individuals, as it seeks to do, that you will distort the result in ways wildly beyond your imagination and in manners which you never wished to see come to light.

As a Conservative, I don't think that it is up to the state to say what I must or must not do with my money insofar as purchasing of products is concerned. If I want to buy an HSA, that is my business.

Nobody's telling you you can't purchase a HSA. In fact, section 1302(d)(20(B) discusses briefly how the Sec., HHS may handle employer-sponsored HSA's to ensure they meet the same level of benefits "standard" health insurance policies would offer. As far as I've been able to determine, there's nothing in the health care reform bill that procludes you from contributing to one. A simple search through the bill would have rooted that out....took me all of 10 seconds to find the referenced section.[/QUOTE]

As to the single-payer argument, I think that's been discussed already...not gonna happen (at least not for a very long time anyway, if every any politician decides to champion health care reform again any time soon). But I do have one question to ask of you...?

By "state", I have to assume you're referring to the federal government because most states already require their residents to purchase auto insurance (a basis liability policy at a minimum) or risk paying a fine. Do you object to this state emposed mandate where you live?
 
I was watching "Meet the Press" this morning (5/15/2011) and heard this from 2012 Republican presidential candidate, Newt Gingrich (video clip from show).

He clearly states that there are people who make enough money to pay for their own health care but instead refuse not to. As such, he says directly that these people aren't being responsible. Moreover, he says that ALL of us have a responsibility to provide health care. As such, isn't that what the individual mandate demands? That those individuals who can pay for health care purchase it and stop having even a small portion of their health care expenses placed at the expense of others?

Watch the video and really listen to what he says, and then go back and read the specific sections of the health care reform law (HR 3590 (PPACA), as outlined below:

- Section 1501(b) which adds the new chapter 48 to IRS law that establishes the individual mandate;

- Section 1311(d)(4)(H) which speaks on exemptions individuals can receive to not participate in state-sponsored health insurance exchanges; and,

- Section 1411(b)(5) which outlines the conditions under which individuals can receive exemptions from purchasing health care.

In every case, the primary exemption criteria is affordability; if you can't afford to buy health insurance, you can be exempt from paying the tax penalty. To that, Newt Gingrinch agrees with the individual mandate as outlined in the health care law.
 
This isn't the point at all!

it is precisely the point. I have never given my servants who work for me in Washington the right to dictate my health insurance arrangements, and we as a people have never done so.
 
You didn't have to! It's writen in the Constitution that they have the power to regulate commerce between the states. As such, the Supreme Court decide in 1944 that insurance was part of interstate commerce. Congress, knowing that health care and health insurance standards are so drastically different from state-to-state and understanding better than you or I that neither the free market nor the States have done anything to bring down the cost of health care, have determine that the best way to reduce costs (for now) is to mandate that everyone who can afford health insurance should buy it. They did it because they believed it necessary to regulate the insurance industry to help make insurance policies fair to all and to provide various avenues whereby people can obtain health insurance and, thus, proper and affordable care.

You may not like it, but that's how it is unless and until the Surpreme Court thinks the government has over-reached in executing one of its enumerated powers. The evidence of the mandate's constitutionality is overwhelming! I think those who oppose it need to just suck it up. Again, I don't agree with it being at the federal level, but I believe that if every state had institute it long ago the fed wouldn't have had to go to such lengths. But Republicans open the door on this issue with their fight against HillaryCare. Little did they know the next Democratic President would take up the call again only this time win!!! Their effort to out-manuever Deomocrats on this issue backfired and now two former GOP staples now seeking the Presidency support the mandate. Checkmate! You lose!!

:2wave:
 
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we gave congress the authority to keep the states from engaging in destructive trade wars with each other - as they had done during the Articles of Confederation Period. Never did we give them the authority to force us to buy anything from another person.


overwhelming? one of the judges to declare the mandate constitutional was forced to resort to arguing that Congress had the right to regulate "mental activity". let's just say I don't see that one flying with Scalia.
 
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While discussing the partisanship over the health care law, a coworker told me that back when Clinton was trying to reform health care measures the Republicans were for the individual mandate. I didn't believe him, so I did an online search and low and behold...



Read the complete article here: Republicans Spurn Once-Favored Health Mandateby Julie Rovner

Or you can listen to the audio interview at the top of the linked article.
I often think that if Obama had pushed universal healthcare instead of "Obamacare," the Republicans would have countered with something essentially identical to what was passed. Then we would not be having the current debate at all.
 
I often think that if Obama had pushed universal healthcare instead of "Obamacare," the Republicans would have countered with something essentially identical to what was passed. Then we would not be having the current debate at all.

Exactly! After all, the individual mandate was a Republican idea long before it became a "dispecable liberal idea". :roll:
 
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