• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I can see firing a warning shot. If I feared for my life, I wouldn't hesitate to pull a gun if I had one (or use any means at my disposal). If I pull a gun, it's because I have the capacity to pull the trigger if I need to. But the key part is, if I need to. I don't WANT to shoot someone. I don't WANT to kill someone. I don't want them to force me to defend myself in such a way. So I can see brandishing the weapon in the hopes that the aggressor will walk away. All I need to do is make them believe I am willing to use it if they persist in threatening my life. I would personally rather they desist in threatening me and walk away than have to kill them to make them do so.
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,661
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I can see firing a warning shot. If I feared for my life, I wouldn't hesitate to pull a gun if I had one (or use any means at my disposal). If I pull a gun, it's because I have the capacity to pull the trigger if I need to. But the key part is, if I need to. I don't WANT to shoot someone. I don't WANT to kill someone. I don't want them to force me to defend myself in such a way. So I can see brandishing the weapon in the hopes that the aggressor will walk away. All I need to do is make them believe I am willing to use it if they persist in threatening my life. I would personally rather they desist in threatening me and walk away than have to kill them to make them do so.

And that, right there, is why you should never own a gun.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
1235018012798.jpg


I can see firing a warning shot. If I feared for my life, I wouldn't hesitate to pull a gun if I had one (or use any means at my disposal). If I pull a gun, it's because I have the capacity to pull the trigger if I need to. But the key part is, if I need to. I don't WANT to shoot someone. I don't WANT to kill someone. I don't want them to force me to defend myself in such a way. So I can see brandishing the weapon in the hopes that the aggressor will walk away. All I need to do is make them believe I am willing to use it if they persist in threatening my life. I would personally rather they desist in threatening me and walk away than have to kill them to make them do so.

In Concealed Carry Certification classes, one of the first things taught is to never draw a gun if you don't intend to use it. It should never be waved around as a threat and you should NEVER fire a warning shot.
 
Last edited:

Moot

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,317
Reaction score
15,236
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We used to have this problem in Albuquerque, the hispanic folk would shoot thier pistoles in the air at certain fiestas.... a flap would ensue. :lol:
The flap would ensue because the bullets would come down on peoples heads. We had the same problem every New Years Eve in LA.
 

Moot

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,317
Reaction score
15,236
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Last edited:

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Maybe a better poll would be to ask if anyone has actually killed someone with a gun, outside of a war situation. I think there is big difference between talking about it and actually doing it.

The chances of your home be destroyed are fairly slim as well, but you carry insurance for that, don't you? It never hurts to be prepared. ;)
 

Moot

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
40,317
Reaction score
15,236
Location
Utah
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The chances of your home be destroyed are fairly slim as well, but you carry insurance for that, don't you? It never hurts to be prepared. ;)
Hmm, maybe. I was inspired to buy a gun after watching the looting during the aftermath of Hurrican Andrew and having witnessed the looting during the LA riots first hand. I bought the gun, not to kill people, but to protect my property. I would never want to kill someone for stealing, but I would definitely try to hurt them, if I had to. So the notion that one has to shoot to kill in all situations is baloney.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hmm, maybe. I was inspired to buy a gun after watching the looting during the aftermath of Hurrican Andrew and having witnessed the looting during the LA riots first hand. I bought the gun, not to kill people, but to protect my property. I would never want to kill someone for stealing, but I would definitely try to hurt them, if I had to. So the notion that one has to shoot to kill in all situations is baloney.

Therein lies the crux of the matter. Civilians with proper weapons training have been taught that the ONLY time you draw a firearm is when your personal safety or the safety of those around you is in jeopardy. If someone is stealing my TV or my car, my first thought would be to call the police, not reach for my weapon, but if that time ever comes and someone is seriously endangering me or my loved ones, I will not hesitate to aim for the chest and pull the trigger.

Bottom line, if you have to shoot, you shoot with deadly intention. No one trains a civilian, law enforcement officer or soldier to intentionally wound a target.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
In Concealed Carry Certification classes, one of the first things taught is to never draw a gun if you don't intend to use it. It should never be waved around as a threat and you should NEVER fire a warning shot.

I would intend to use it if they didn't back off. But I will always, and I mean always, give someone the opportunity to change their mind about continuing to threaten my life.

And that, right there, is why you should never own a gun.
Because I would prefer that someone walk away as opposed to having to shoot them? Because I don't *want* to kill someone? :roll:

Pahlease. All the people who own guns don't WANT to shoot people. There are few people that actually have a hankering to go out and blow someone away. I would prefer someone walk away from me than have to kill them, and I will give them the opportunity to do so. Whether I have a knife, a gun, or a baseball bat. My first choice will ALWAYS be for them to desist in threatening me and walk away. If you think that not wanting to kill someone is a reason not to own a gun, then I feel pretty sorry for your attitude about the world.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
[
I would intend to use it if they didn't back off. But I will always, and I mean always, give someone the opportunity to change their mind about continuing to threaten my life.

You’re misunderstanding my perspective, I think. A gun should stay holstered, away, hidden, unless lives are at risk. Stealing my TV or my car is not life threatening.

If you just want to scare someone away, your gun should never leave its holster. Most confrontations can be resolved by keeping a clear head and talking your way out of it.

However, if you find yourself in a truly life threatening situation, all you will likely have time to do is draw your weapon, unsafety, and pull the trigger. Any hesitation can be the difference between you or your attacker lying on the ground. Many people who carry concealed weapons do so with a full magazine and a round already in the chamber because that’s how fast things will be happening.

Waving a gun is just giving your attacker more time to figure out a proper way to overcome your defense. Lives are saved by the element of surprise. You draw, you shoot. Anything else is only putting you in more danger.
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,661
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I would intend to use it if they didn't back off. But I will always, and I mean always, give someone the opportunity to change their mind about continuing to threaten my life.


Because I would prefer that someone walk away as opposed to having to shoot them? Because I don't *want* to kill someone? :roll:

Pahlease. All the people who own guns don't WANT to shoot people. There are few people that actually have a hankering to go out and blow someone away. I would prefer someone walk away from me than have to kill them, and I will give them the opportunity to do so. Whether I have a knife, a gun, or a baseball bat. My first choice will ALWAYS be for them to desist in threatening me and walk away. If you think that not wanting to kill someone is a reason not to own a gun, then I feel pretty sorry for your attitude about the world.

You're reading here from many posters who own and are proficient with firearms that one doesn't point a gun at ANYONE without intent to shoot. Nobody, and I mean nobody with brains, shoots to wound. Believe what you'd like. But while you're deciding whether or not you should fire, whether or not you should fire a warning shot, whether or not you should aim at his arm or his leg, the other guy just shot ya' in the head.

The reason I say you shouldn't own a gun is not a take on your well-intentioned motives. It comes from my belief that, given your "shoot to wound" philosophy, a gun would probably get you killed -- when push came to shove.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
[

You’re misunderstanding my perspective, I think. A gun should stay holstered, away, hidden, unless lives are at risk. Stealing my TV or my car is not life threatening.

If you just want to scare someone away, your gun should never leave its holster.
Seeing the gun IS what might make them back off. I can guarantee you that when I was being attacked, if I'd had a gun they wouldn't have gotten me down and most likely I wouldn't have had to shoot since they weren't armed. Seeing my gun would have made them leave me the **** alone. I wouldn't have had to shoot. But, if they made one more move towards me after seeing my weapon? Gun goes off. Period. End of story. But I WILL give them the opportunity to change their mind.

However, if you find yourself in a truly life threatening situation, all you will likely have time to do is draw your weapon, unsafety, and pull the trigger. Any hesitation can be the difference between you or your attacker lying on the ground. Many people who carry concealed weapons do so with a full magazine and a round already in the chamber because that’s how fast things will be happening.
I think I know the difference between when to fire immediately and when not to. And that's what I'm talking about. I DO know the difference. And firing a weapon is NOT always necessary.

Waving a gun is just giving your attacker more time to figure out a proper way to overcome your defense. Lives are saved by the element of surprise. You draw, you shoot. Anything else is only putting you in more danger.
It's giving them an opportunity to change their mind and live. I'm okay with that. I am not okay with living with any doubt that shooting and killing was necessary on my part. I would shoot if I have no other choice. Ditto for using any weapon.

You're reading here from many posters who own and are proficient with firearms that one doesn't point a gun at ANYONE without intent to shoot.
I would intend to shoot, if necessary.

Nobody, and I mean nobody with brains, shoots to wound. Believe what you'd like. But while you're deciding whether or not you should fire, whether or not you should fire a warning shot, whether or not you should aim at his arm or his leg, the other guy just shot ya' in the head.
You think I would hesitate if the other person had a gun? You really think I'm that much of an idiot? I'm talking about a situation where the gun is the upperhand. If they have a gun, and I have a gun, then it's a matter of who shoots first. If they are threatening me but do not have a gun and I do, then I let them know I have the upperhand and give them a second to contemplate that. If they wish to persist threatening me while my gun is aimed at them, then they'll feel a bullet.


The reason I say you shouldn't own a gun is not a take on your well-intentioned motives. It comes from my belief that, given your "shoot to wound" philosophy, a gun would probably get you killed -- when push came to shove.
I said I would pull a gun and give an attacker the opportunity to leave/submit before I shot. And that I could see certain situations wherein a warning shot (NOT 'shooting to wound') could and would be prudent. (such as getting someone's attention) And, I could see many a situation where I would prefer to shoot to wound, but I doubt I would be that good of a shot, so I'm just going to shoot to HIT.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,524
Reaction score
50,126
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Hmm, maybe. I was inspired to buy a gun after watching the looting during the aftermath of Hurrican Andrew and having witnessed the looting during the LA riots first hand. I bought the gun, not to kill people, but to protect my property. I would never want to kill someone for stealing, but I would definitely try to hurt them, if I had to. So the notion that one has to shoot to kill in all situations is baloney.

Laws vary from state to state, but most go something like this:
1. You are not allowed to shoot someone to defend property only.
2. Any time you shoot someone, it is normally considered "lethal force". Even if they don't die, shooting someone is typically considered evidence of intent to kill, even if you claim intent to wound.

Admitting that you "shot to wound", can be used against you in court. It will be considered evidence that you did not consider the situation serious enough to warrant deadly force, yet as I mentioned, shooting someone AT ALL is usually considered deadly force regardless of your point of aim. In essence you are admitting to using a lethal weapon in a situation that you felt was not worth killing over. I'll grant you that this is a legal construct whose literal application probably goes outside of common sense in some cases, but it is a fact that admitting "I shot to wound" can put you in prison.

This goes back to "when arrested, say NOTHING except 'I want my lawyer'." :mrgreen:

I am a former law enforcement officer. To my knowlege, "shooting to wound" is not a normal part of any PD's curriculum. Even a bullet in the arm can kill, by severing the brachial artery. A bullet in the foot is potentially fatal if infection sets in. In some few VERY RARE scenarios, a SNIPER may shoot to disable, but that is not typical.

"Warning shots" are also disallowed in most if not all PD's. It was found that warning shots endangered bystanders too much. Tactically a warning shot takes you off target for a moment, and gives the perp a moment of time when he is not covered by your weapon.

Now, about this business of "Waving a gun to scare someone off"... yes and no. As an LEO, if I drew a pistol it was with the intention of using it if necessary... but in some cases the person backed down at the last possible instant and saved their life thereby.

Since leaving LE, as a private citizen with a concealed carry permit, I've been in some dangerous situations. Awareness and decision-making skills are critical, as I teach in my self-defense and handgunning classes. I don't want to ever be so far behind the curve that I am drawing against an already-drawn-gun... that's a good way to get killed, unless done from behind cover. For one example, I was once targeted for some kind of street-crime. One perp approached from the front, trying to get my attention. Being trained to watch for this kind of thing, I moved to one side and looked for the partner I assumed he probably had, and saw him coming up behind me. Both exhibited body language consistent with "threat behavior". Finding myself bracketed by two men of apparently criminal intentions, I put my hand on my weapon and prepared to draw. When they saw this, they both veered off in opposite directions and left the area. Had they not done so, I would have completed my draw if they continued to close on me, as 2 on 1 is legally equivalent to deadly force in my state. What would have happened at that point is pure speculation, but if they had immediately ceased their threatening behavior I would not necessarily have fired. Waiting until they had me pinned between them and a gun in my face or knife at my back would have been "less than ideal."

On the "square range" you are commonly shooting at ranges of 7-25 yards. In the street, perps often wait until they have you up close, like arm's length or less, before they even let you see the weapon... and at that point you're in serious trouble, especially if he has a partner behind you.

Things are not always black and white in the real world.
 
Last edited:

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Seeing the gun IS what might make them back off. I can guarantee you that when I was being attacked, if I'd had a gun they wouldn't have gotten me down and most likely I wouldn't have had to shoot since they weren't armed. Seeing my gun would have made them leave me the **** alone. I wouldn't have had to shoot. But, if they made one more move towards me after seeing my weapon? Gun goes off. Period. End of story. But I WILL give them the opportunity to change their mind.


I think I know the difference between when to fire immediately and when not to. And that's what I'm talking about. I DO know the difference. And firing a weapon is NOT always necessary.

Then drawing the weapon wasn't necessary.


It's giving them an opportunity to change their mind and live. I'm okay with that. I am not okay with living with any doubt that shooting and killing was necessary on my part. I would shoot if I have no other choice. Ditto for using any weapon.

I promise you that in a life and death situation, you will not have time to evaluate your options as completely as you think.




You think I would hesitate if the other person had a gun? You really think I'm that much of an idiot? I'm talking about a situation where the gun is the upperhand. If they have a gun, and I have a gun, then it's a matter of who shoots first. If they are threatening me but do not have a gun and I do, then I let them know I have the upperhand and give them a second to contemplate that. If they wish to persist threatening me while my gun is aimed at them, then they'll feel a bullet.

You have no idea what the capabilities of your attacker are. If they are trying to hurt you, by the time you fully realize what they're doing, you may have lost your chance to use your defense. I'm telling you that if I, personally, were within five feet of you and you pulled a gun without immediately firing it, I would be the one holding your gun instead...not to mention that my concealed draw might be faster than yours. Your hesitation just may give me the chance to shoot you with the gun you didn't know I had.



I said I would pull a gun and give an attacker the opportunity to leave/submit before I shot. And that I could see certain situations wherein a warning shot (NOT 'shooting to wound') could and would be prudent. (such as getting someone's attention) And, I could see many a situation where I would prefer to shoot to wound, but I doubt I would be that good of a shot, so I'm just going to shoot to HIT.

How do you account for where your stray warning shot went? I really don't even know what to say to this... A gun is never a means to warn someone or get their attention.

I respect your opinion. All I'm trying to tell you is that everything you think you know or you plan to do flies in the face of consistent training and real world experience by every organization that teaches the safe and appropriate use of firearms.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Then drawing the weapon wasn't necessary.
If I'd had a gun, I wouldn't have been assaulted. Not having the gun means I was assaulted. How can you say that drawing it wouldn't have been necessary when not drawing it means I was assaulted?

I promise you that in a life and death situation, you will not have time to evaluate your options as completely as you think.

You have no idea what the capabilities of your attacker are. If they are trying to hurt you, by the time you fully realize what they're doing, you may have lost your chance to use your defense. I'm telling you that if I, personally, were within five feet of you and you pulled a gun without immediately firing it, I would be the one holding your gun instead...not to mention that my concealed draw might be faster than yours. Your hesitation just may give me the chance to shoot you with the gun you didn't know I had.
Then I'm dead either way. I feel better knowing that I only shot if I had to.


How do you account for where your stray warning shot went?
Because I aim it.

I really don't even know what to say to this... A gun is never a means to warn someone or get their attention.
Us country folk beg to differ. :lol:

I respect your opinion. All I'm trying to tell you is that everything you think you know or you plan to do flies in the face of consistent training and real world experience by every organization that teaches the safe and appropriate use of firearms.
It doesn't fly in the face of my personal experience. If I'd had a gun when I was assaulted, I would NOT have been assaulted, and I would not have had to fire.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
If I'd had a gun, I wouldn't have been assaulted. Not having the gun means I was assaulted. How can you say that drawing it wouldn't have been necessary when not drawing it means I was assaulted?

The average attack takes place within arms reach. You don't have time to play "look at what I have." The last thing you want is to give a gun to the attacker that didn't have one a second ago. I can't say it enough: Draw, shoot.


Then I'm dead either way. I feel better knowing that I only shot if I had to.
Actually you don't feel anything. You're dead because you were careless and your attacker will likely hurt other people.


Because I aim it.

Your aim is off the attacker, again, giving them time to turn the tables on you.

Us country folk beg to differ. :lol:

A rapist in a back alley is not the same as a trespasser on your ranch, ma'am. You won't see them from across the hayfield. :mrgreen:

It doesn't fly in the face of my personal experience.

I have nothing against you and I can't stop you from doing whatever you think is appropriate, but forgive me if I take proven training over anecdotal evidence.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The average attack takes place within arms reach. You don't have time to play "look at what I have." The last thing you want is to give a gun to the attacker that didn't have one a second ago. I can't say it enough: Draw, shoot.
And I disagree. I know I would have had time.

Actually you don't feel anything. You're dead because you were careless and your attacker will likely hurt other people.
Fine, then I won't LIVE wondering if I killed someone unnecessarily. And I'm okay with that.

Your aim is off the attacker, again, giving them time to turn the tables on you.

A rapist in a back alley is not the same as a trespasser on your ranch, ma'am. You won't see them from across the hayfield. :mrgreen:
And I did say that I could see the benefit and usefulness of it in certain situations. And I can. And have. That includes someone coming onto the property and getting a warning shot from a distance. Or, two people down on the ground fighting and a warning shot in the air gets their attention and they stop trying to kill each other. Both situations that I've either witnessed or know a family member has done. I didn't say anything about a back alley, I said "certain situations", and those situations do exist.

I have nothing against you and I can't stop you from doing whatever you think is appropriate, but forgive me if I take proven training over anecdotal evidence.
That's fine for you, and I don't blame you. But I know my personal experiences and those of family members, and I know good and goddamn well that there are times when warning shots are appropriate and times when simply letting someone know you are armed is all you need to do. Situation de-escalated. Every situation? Absolutely not. But those situations DO exist and I've been in them.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
And I disagree. I know I would have had time.

You didn't have a gun in that situation, did you? If not, you have no way of knowing if they would have disarmed you.


Fine, then I won't LIVE wondering if I killed someone unnecessarily. And I'm okay with that.

Fine. No contention with that then.

And I did say that I could see the benefit and usefulness of it in certain situations. And I can. And have. That includes someone coming onto the property and getting a warning shot from a distance. Or, two people down on the ground fighting and a warning shot in the air gets their attention and they stop trying to kill each other. Both situations that I've either witnessed or know a family member has done. I didn't say anything about a back alley, I said "certain situations", and those situations do exist.

I'm not sure where you live, but both of those examples would've been against the law, even if you were carrying a permit, in most cities. You wouldn't be able to establish a legitimate need for self defense. In both instances, a call to the police would've accomplished the same thing and not been against the law. From your descriptions, it doesn't sound like use of a deadly weapon would've been merited in those situations.

Btw, firing a blind shot into the air is one of the most irresponsible things a gun owner can do.

That's fine for you, and I don't blame you. But I know my personal experiences and those of family members, and I know good and goddamn well that there are times when warning shots are appropriate and times when simply letting someone know you are armed is all you need to do. Situation de-escalated. Every situation? Absolutely not. But those situations DO exist and I've been in them.

Fair enough. I can't argue with anecdotes.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,524
Reaction score
50,126
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Replying to both Angry and River....


I think the truth lies somewhere between your two positions.


River, warning shots just aren't a good idea, and shooting to wound generally isn't either. Accuracy suffers under stress, and trying to hit an arm or leg is a good way to miss entirely. While I appreciate your desire not to kill anyone, and I share that desire, pulling a gun in a less than life-and-death situation escalates it to a life-and-death situation... and you need to be very cautious about that. I live out in the country too, but it isn't like the old days, when my Dad used to run trespassers off with a warning shot through their beer cooler. :mrgreen:

Angry, pulling a gun doensn't always mean firing it. If the perp is drawing a gun, yes. If the perp has a gun in hand... well you're already way behind the curve, but if you're going to try to out-Matt-Dillion him, yeah you'd better be shooting as soon as the muzzle is pointed at him. However, there are cases where it isn't always black and white. If you're drawing on a perp who is some distance away with a knife, threatening you and coming in your direction, and he sees the gun and suddenly whirls away to run, shooting him in the back is generally considered excessive. If you pull a gun because a pair of big men are threatening to kick your ass, prudence dictates giving them a chance to back down if they appear to be unarmed. There are times when a gun can be used to make someone back down, yes, though you never draw it unless you're willing to use it... thus, care should be taken about drawing at all.

(BTW, laws vary on when you can legitimately pull a gun on an apparently unarmed perp. In my state, you can draw on multiple attackers. A small woman could pull a gun on a man who was threatening serious violence or violation of her person. A homeowner can pull a gun on - and shoot - practically any intruder... but this is one area where there is a lot of variation, so check your state laws on this to be safe.)
 
Last edited:

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Angry, pulling a gun doensn't always mean firing it. If the perp is drawing a gun, yes. If the perp has a gun in hand... well you're already way behind the curve, but if you're going to try to out-Matt-Dillion him, yeah you'd better be shooting as soon as the muzzle is pointed at him. However, there are cases where it isn't always black and white. If you're drawing on a perp who is some distance away with a knife, threatening you and coming in your direction, and he sees the gun and suddenly whirls away to run, shooting him in the back is generally considered excessive. If you pull a gun because a pair of big men are threatening to kick your ass, prudence dictates giving them a chance to back down if they appear to be unarmed. There are times when a gun can be used to make someone back down, yes, though you never draw it unless you're willing to use it... thus, care should be taken about drawing at all.

I agree and perhaps I overstated in my attempt to make a point. Let me clarify. I would never pull a gun and then take time to assess the situation and determine if I need to fire. If I draw it's because I'm fully intending to pull the trigger, however, you're right, I wouldn't advocate shooting someone in the back as they flee. That would not look good when law enforcement showed up. :2razz:

All I can say is that the attacker had better hope they have the lightning reflexes to make it obvious that they have changed their minds in the second before I fire.

Btw, attacker coming at me with a knife is probably not a weapons drawn situation for me. I've practiced enough disarms to be able to do it in the dark, with my eyes closed. My viewpoint comes from the fact that unholstering is the absolute LAST resort, when I KNOW I'm in trouble.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
You didn't have a gun in that situation, did you? If not, you have no way of knowing if they would have disarmed you.
I know they wouldn't have.

I'm not sure where you live, but both of those examples would've been against the law, even if you were carrying a permit, in most cities. You wouldn't be able to establish a legitimate need for self defense. In both instances, a call to the police would've accomplished the same thing and not been against the law. From your descriptions, it doesn't sound like use of a deadly weapon would've been merited in those situations.
Not talking about cities. There's not much with guns that's illegal in West by god Virginia. Even if it is, it's unlikely that the dude trespassing on your property is going to know and/or say jack **** about it. ;) A call to the police would mean the cops showing up in about an hour. Not gonna be much help there.


Btw, firing a blind shot into the air is one of the most irresponsible things a gun owner can do.
Yeah, that buckshot might fall back down and tinkle on someone. ;)


River, warning shots just aren't a good idea, and shooting to wound generally isn't either. Accuracy suffers under stress, and trying to hit an arm or leg is a good way to miss entirely. While I appreciate your desire not to kill anyone, and I share that desire, pulling a gun in a less than life-and-death situation escalates it to a life-and-death situation... and you need to be very cautious about that. I live out in the country too, but it isn't like the old days, when my Dad used to run trespassers off with a warning shot through their beer cooler. :mrgreen:
I'm just sayin'... I've witnessed situations where warning shots were appropriate. But they are specific situations. To say that NO situation exists where it is appropriate would be wrong. ;) As for shooting to wound, I already stated that I would shoot to HIT because my aim isn't going to be good enough to go for "wound" or "kill shot". I'm just going to aim for center mass which is where I'm most likely going to get a hit. If I *could*, and KNEW that I could shoot to wound and not kill, I would do that if the situation allowed and called for it. But I'd have to be pretty goddamn sure of my shot and I can't imagine ever being that sure of my shot.
 

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,524
Reaction score
50,126
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I agree and perhaps I overstated in my attempt to make a point. Let me clarify. I would never pull a gun and then take time to assess the situation and determine if I need to fire. If I draw it's because I'm fully intending to pull the trigger, however, you're right, I wouldn't advocate shooting someone in the back as they flee. That would not look good when law enforcement showed up. :2razz:

All I can say is that the attacker had better hope they have the lightning reflexes to make it obvious that they have changed their minds in the second before I fire.


Concur, thanks.


Btw, attacker coming at me with a knife is probably not a weapons drawn situation for me. I've practiced enough disarms to be able to do it in the dark, with my eyes closed. My viewpoint comes from the fact that unholstering is the absolute LAST resort, when I KNOW I'm in trouble.

Your call, but if I can draw a gun against a man with a knife who isn't already in my face, I prefer to have the gun in hand.

I spent a lot of time learning to take knives and guns away from people empty-handed. Spent a lot of time practicing it. Got very good at it... when I demo disarms people are always impressed with how quickly and easily I can take knives and guns away from folks in practice. In the real world, I consider attempting to disarm an armed attacker to be pretty much a last-resort action. Disarms are not robust techniques... if anything goes wrong, you're screwed. I've faced edged weapons for-real and I vastly prefer to be armed against such a threat.

In one training class, I had a guy who had trained disarms. I let him do one on me, using a dull practice knife. Then I changed my tactics and came at him using trained knife-fighting techniques, and he was unable to disarm me. I "cut" both his arms, then "Stabbed" him repeatedly... and I don't consider myself an expert with knives, merely "marginally competent."

So I teach disarms, but mainly as a last-ditch I-screwed-up-and-have-no-other-option-but-to-stand-here-and-die kind of thing.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I know they wouldn't have.


Not talking about cities. There's not much with guns that's illegal in West by god Virginia. Even if it is, it's unlikely that the dude trespassing on your property is going to know and/or say jack **** about it. ;) A call to the police would mean the cops showing up in about an hour. Not gonna be much help there.



Yeah, that buckshot might fall back down and tinkle on someone. ;)



I'm just sayin'... I've witnessed situations where warning shots were appropriate. But they are specific situations. To say that NO situation exists where it is appropriate would be wrong. ;) As for shooting to wound, I already stated that I would shoot to HIT because my aim isn't going to be good enough to go for "wound" or "kill shot". I'm just going to aim for center mass which is where I'm most likely going to get a hit. If I *could*, and KNEW that I could shoot to wound and not kill, I would do that if the situation allowed and called for it. But I'd have to be pretty goddamn sure of my shot and I can't imagine ever being that sure of my shot.

I believe our disconnect comes from the fact that we are talking about two completely different venues here. You're thinking more country/small town, like where I was born in Nebraska, and I'm thinking more big city life, like where I live now. Everyone in the country has a shotgun in their truck. That is far more common than a compact, concealed pistol, which is the usual weapon in these here parts.
 

theangryamerican

Can't stop the signal...
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,233
Reaction score
1,184
Location
The Wild West
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Concur, thanks.



*
Your call, but if I can draw a gun against a man with a knife who isn't already in my face, I prefer to have the gun in hand. *

I spent a lot of time learning to take knives and guns away from people empty-handed. *Spent a lot of time practicing it. *Got very good at it... when I demo disarms people are always impressed with how quickly and easily I can take knives and guns away from folks in practice. *In the real world, I consider attempting to disarm an armed attacker to be pretty much a last-resort action. *Disarms are not robust techniques... if anything goes wrong, you're screwed. *I've faced edged weapons for-real and I vastly prefer to be armed against such a threat. *

So I teach disarms, but mainly as a last-ditch I-screwed-up-and-have-no-other-option-but-to-stand-here-and-die kind of thing.
*
I concede your point. Upon further consideration, I shall shoot the knife wielder. :2razz:
 
Top Bottom