GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

[Quag]

To say that we can't use the Bible to prove that Jesus and Jehovah as One and the Same, is a CHRISTIAN DOCTRINAL FACT - hahahaha - is so jaw-dropping in its idiocy!
On the contrary - the BIBLE is the ONLY AUTHORITATIVE source to use for that!

Nope its a logical fallacy.
You are trying to use the claim as proof of the claim
The Bible doenst prove God and Jesus are one and the same, it merely CLAIMS they are.
Not the same thing

 

[tosca1]

Nope its a logical fallacy.
You are trying to use the claim as proof of the claim
The Bible doenst prove God and Jesus are one and the same, it merely CLAIMS they are.
Not the same thing

I suppose you don't understand what a doctrine is.

Of course the BIBLE would be the only AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE to prove a BIBLICAL DOCTRINE.
This issue - THIS THREAD - is about WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS regarding the TRINITY.

We should understand the thread and issue we respond to. That's only sensible.
Bye-bye Quag.

 

[Quag]

I suppose you don't understand what a doctrine is.

Of course the BIBLE would be the only AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE to prove a BIBLICAL DOCTRINE.
This issue - THIS THREAD - is about WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS regarding the TRINITY.

We should understand the thread and issue we respond to. That's only sensible.
Bye-bye Quag.

What the Bible says is irrelevant until you can prove God exists and that the Bible is the word on God
Neither has ever been done thus nothing in the Bobel can prov e the Bible

Even if you assume God exists and the Bible is the word of God, you run unto the problem that it has been rewritten and translated so many times with many parts added, left out over time leaving everyone to interpret it their own way
Plus no one follows the Bible 100%
Hence the reason there are so many different sects
Which is why even if God exists and the Bible is true you will still have debates as you do today over what parts accepted/used or not

 

[Daisy]

The Bible doenst prove God and Jesus are one and the same, it merely CLAIMS they are.

Really? Where is that scripture?

 

[Quag]

Really? Where is that scripture?

Ask Tosca, but thanx for proving my point

 

[Daisy]

Ask Tosca, but thanx for proving my point

You're welcome...

 

[tosca1]

What the Bible says is irrelevant until you can prove God exists and that the Bible is the word on God
Neither has ever been done thus nothing in the Bobel can prov e the Bible

Even if you assume God exists and the Bible is the word of God, you run unto the problem that it has been rewritten and translated so many times with many parts added, left out over time leaving everyone to interpret it their own way
Plus no one follows the Bible 100%
Hence the reason there are so many different sects
Which is why even if God exists and the Bible is true you will still have debates as you do today over what parts accepted/used or not

I don't have to prove God exists!
He exists! His existence isn't an issue at all on this thread!

The issue is about the Christian BIBLICAL doctrine

The Bible doenst prove God and Jesus are one and the same, it merely CLAIMS they are.

@Elora

Oh boy!


Thank you.

That's all that's needed - for the Bible to CLAIM that they are One and the Same!


Quag - that the Bible CLAIMS Jesus and God are One and the Same - THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROOF THAT I'M SHOWING HERE!
Like I said - on this thread - your atheistic views are irrelevant!
We're talking about a biblical doctrine - and understandably, the Bible is all I need for evidence.


At least - you agree with me that the Bible claims Jesus and God are One and the Same.
You and I - we agree on that. 100%.
At least - it's good you'd seen that, considering you don't even believe.

 

[Quag]

I don't have to prove God exists!
He exists! His existence isn't an issue at all on this thread!

The issue is about the Christian BIBLICAL doctrine







@Elora

Oh boy!


Thank you.

That's all that's needed - for the Bible to CLAIM that they are One and the Same!


Quag - that the Bible CLAIMS Jesus and God are One and the Same - THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROOF THAT I'M SHOWING HERE!
Like I said - on this thread - your atheistic views are irrelevant!
We're talking about a biblical doctrine - and understandably, the Bible is all I need for evidence.


At least - you agree with me that the Bible claims Jesus and God are One and the Same.
You and I - we agree on that. 100%.
At least - it's good you'd seen that, considering you don't even believe.

Nope it isnt talk to Elora

 

[Daisy]

Jesus said he and the Father are one...that is the one go-to scripture many trinitarians use to "prove" their doctrine...yet, he also said the Father is greater than he is so what did he mean by these 2 statements? Many think he meant he is God, but if the Father is greater than he is, how can that be true? Upon examining the context of "I and the Father are one," the oneness in which Jesus was referring must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement...his works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was complete unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize in John 10:37,38...he was speaking of his works and his care of the “sheep” who would follow him...so, Jesus statement, “The Father is greater than I am" in John 14:28 remains in harmony with "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30, when taken in context...the Father remains the Father, Jehovah God and the Son remains the Son, Jesus Christ...no hocus pocus involved...

 

[tosca1]

Nope it isnt talk to Elora

@Elora


You've already said it yourself!
You said............................................ the Bible CLAIMS Jesus is God.
That's all we want to show!
That's all the proof we need.


Lol - Elora has so many outstanding questions to answer!


The latest question that she's ran away from which is relevant to this issue, is this:

Post #593

Is Jesus Jehovah?

We can now safely and logically deduce you are either unable, or unwilling, to detect the differences in the written word...got it...lol... The "written word(s)" with "differences"

debatepolitics.com

Furthermore, for a non-believer, you seem to have better sight than Elora.
She can't see what you, a non-believer, clearly understood: that, THE BIBLE CLAIMS JESUS IS GOD.

Elora simply relies on JW.
JW is her "authoritative" source. Not The Scriptures.



This thread is meant solely to show that the TRINITY and JESUS IS GOD, as a biblical fact - by using the Scriptures to prove them.
Understandably - this issue is meant for those who regard the Bible as the WORD of GOD!

This isn't about the existence of God, nor is this about the credibility of the Bible.
That's why I say, your atheistic views don't mean anything here! They're irrelevant!
They're out of topic!

I don't want to derail this thread..............................especially so with silly, irrational prattles!

 

[tosca1]

Jesus said he and the Father are one...

and He also said:

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.
How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (John 14)


The usage of the term "seen" can be taken literally.......................................because GOD IS SPIRIT!
You cannot see a spirit, but you can see GOD IN THE FLESH!


John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

that is the one go-to scripture many trinitarians use to "prove" their doctrine...

There are numerous "go-to" by Trinitarians!

yet, he also said the Father is greater than he is so what did he mean by these 2 statements? Many think he meant he is God,

Those who think that, aren't relying solely on that line alone.


Refer to: Post #296

GOD HIMSELF will be with them[W;105]

Your opinion based on your disbelief in the Abrahamic God isn't welcomed on this thread. This thread is meant for Christians. You folks are either so uncomprehending and/or ..............................scared s***less. You're trying to own what obviously, isn't meant for you. :) Mind your...

debatepolitics.com

but if the Father is greater than he is, how can that be true? Upon examining the context of "I and the Father are one," the oneness in which Jesus was referring must be understood in harmony with the context of his statement...his works, as well as his words, demonstrated that there was complete unity, not disunity and disharmony, between him and his Father, a point his reply went on to emphasize in John 10:37,38...he was speaking of his works and his care of the “sheep” who would follow him...so, Jesus statement, “The Father is greater than I am" in John 14:28 remains in harmony with "I and the Father are one" in John 10:30, when taken in context...the Father remains the Father, Jehovah God and the Son remains the Son, Jesus Christ...no hocus pocus involved...

The context that JESUS is GOD, is also spread out throughout the Bible (as shown in post #296) - nothing contradicts!


Speaking of context - how can JOHN be contradicting himself in his books when he wrote precisely that Jesus is God?

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 10
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”




The Jews perfectly understood who He was claiming to be!

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”



John 14
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.



Of course - many times, Jesus (God-incarnate), speaks as THE SON!


All the miracles that Jesus has done as SON is to prove that He is the Messiah, but it also has another purpose:

.........so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13)

 

[tosca1]

Those who are anti-Trinitarians like JW, simply keep rehashing and recycling the few verses they rely on - most of them (if not all), cherry-picked and taken out of context.

With both claiming to be GOD - they can't answer who the true God is between Jesus and Jehovah!
One of them has got to be lying.
Unless they'll settle it by being BOTH GODS - which means, Christianity is polytheistic! With The Father sacrificing His own Son!
STRAIGHT right back to PAGANISM!


In contrast to that -

Numerous verses fill this thread - all consistent, corroborative of one another - showing the Trinity and the deity of Jesus Christ!
The connection can be traced between the Old Testament and The New.
NOTHING CONTRADICTS!

 

[Quag]

@Elora


You've already said it yourself!
You said............................................ the Bible CLAIMS Jesus is God.
That's all we want to show!
That's all the proof we need.


Lol - Elora has so many outstanding questions to answer!


The latest question that she's ran away from which is relevant to this issue, is this:

Post #593

Is Jesus Jehovah?

We can now safely and logically deduce you are either unable, or unwilling, to detect the differences in the written word...got it...lol... The "written word(s)" with "differences"

debatepolitics.com

Furthermore, for a non-believer, you seem to have better sight than Elora.
She can't see what you, a non-believer, clearly understood: that, THE BIBLE CLAIMS JESUS IS GOD.

Elora simply relies on JW.
JW is her "authoritative" source. Not The Scriptures.



This thread is meant solely to show that the TRINITY and JESUS IS GOD, as a biblical fact - by using the Scriptures to prove them.
Understandably - this issue is meant for those who regard the Bible as the WORD of GOD!

This isn't about the existence of God, nor is this about the credibility of the Bible.
That's why I say, your atheistic views don't mean anything here! They're irrelevant!
They're out of topic!

I don't want to derail this thread..............................especially so with silly, irrational prattles!

The Bible doesnt prove the Bible and there are so many different versions it is foolish to pretend you have the correct one

 

[tosca1]

Colossians 1
9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you.
We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—



ALL THREE THAT MAKE UP THE TRIUNE GOD IN ONE, ARE MENTIONED!
ALL THREE ARE ONE AND THE SAME.


THE SON IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.
GOD HAS TO SHED BLOOD THRU PHYSICAL DEATH - CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY.
GOD HAS TO BECOME HUMAN TO BE THE MESSIAH - THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE FOR THE SIN OF MANKIND.



John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us;




Jesus has talked about having been sent by GOD..........................doing the will of God................................... accomplishing the will of GOD.
Why wouldn't He.........after all, He is THE WORD!



Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

 

[Daisy]

The Bible doesnt prove the Bible and there are so many different versions it is foolish to pretend you have the correct one

But it does, when taken in context/not distorted...for example Jesus said...

“He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” John 14:9

Yet, Jesus also said...

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him." John 1:18

These 2 scriptures seem to be in direct conflict with one another, when 1st considered, but if you dig deeper into what Jesus really meant by his statement in John 14:9, you come to understand what Jesus was referring to...in the previous scripture, John 14:8, Phillip said to Jesus...

“Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

Perhaps Phillip wanted Jesus to provide a vision of God, as had been granted before in visions to Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah...in those visions, God’s servants were allowed to see symbolic representations of God, not God Himself...Jesus’ reply to Philip let him know he had already seen something better than a vision of God because Jesus perfectly reflected the personality of his Father...seeing Jesus was like seeing God Himself...Jesus' words in Matthew 11:27 further support that thought...

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him."

 

[Quag]

But it does, when taken in context/not distorted...for example Jesus said...

“He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” John 14:9

Yet, Jesus also said...

"No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him." John 1:18

These 2 scriptures seem to be in direct conflict with one another, when 1st considered, but if you dig deeper into what Jesus really meant by his statement in John 14:9, you come to understand what Jesus was referring to...in the previous scripture, John 14:8, Phillip said to Jesus...

“Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

Perhaps Phillip wanted Jesus to provide a vision of God, as had been granted before in visions to Moses, Elijah, and Isaiah...in those visions, God’s servants were allowed to see symbolic representations of God, not God Himself...Jesus’ reply to Philip let him know he had already seen something better than a vision of God because Jesus perfectly reflected the personality of his Father...seeing Jesus was like seeing God Himself...Jesus' words in Matthew 11:27 further support that thought...

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him."

Which version of which translation?

 

[Daisy]

Which version of which translation?

Any one you choose...compare translations, if you like...

 

[Quag]

Any one you choose...compare translations, if you like...

Why bother?

 

[Daisy]

Why bother?

Or don't...we all make our own choices in life...I choose to try to understand God's Word and why it says the things it says...there is reason and logic to be had, you just have to dig for it...

 

[Quag]

Or don't...we all make our own choices in life...I choose to try to understand God's Word and why it says the things it says...there is reason and logic to be had, you just have to dig for it...

No you choose to decide which versions of which translations you will all the word of God, it isnt logic it is emotions

 

[Daisy]

No you choose to decide which versions of which translations you will all the word of God, it isnt logic it is emotions

Wrong...I refer to several different translations when studying...biblehub.com is an excellent website to pull up parallel translations...

 

[Quag]

Wrong...I refer to several different translations when studying...biblehub.com is an excellent website to pull up parallel translations...

You refer to them then pick what YOU like.
In other word,s YOU decide what is the actual words of God

There is no other way possible to do it

 

[Daisy]

You refer to them then pick what YOU like.
In other word,s YOU decide what is the actual words of God

There is no other way possible to do it

Nope...I'm not searching for what I like...I am searching for the truth...

 

[Quag]

Nope...I'm not searching for what I like...I am searching for the truth...

Since there is no way of knowing that you settle for pretending what you like is the truth

 

[Daisy]

Since there is no way of knowing that you settle for pretending what you like is the truth

Think what you will, my being dishonest with myself hurts no one but me...