God Given Rights ?

[gboisjo]

Posted by gboisjo
Rights boil down to rules ..rules are established, organized and regulated by socially produced systems. Just like monkeys and lions we
do whats best for the collective. Its all about our nature, nothing else.

Posted by Elvira
The United Nations defines human rights as “those rights which are inherent in our nature and without which we cannot live as human beings.”

Never has there been a truer statement.

 

[watsup]

The United Nations defines human rights as “those rights which are inherent in our nature and without which we cannot live as human beings.”

Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says that “all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ”

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 25 states “Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including...housing.”​

The Bible testifies to the fact that the conscience is inherent in man, having been made part of him by God, being an inward realization or sense of right and wrong that excuses or accuses one...

"For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused." Romans 2:14,15

You do know that your last paragraph denotes “natural” law rather than God-given law, right? This affirming the exact opposite of what you were trying for.

 

[Daisy]

You do know that your last paragraph denotes “natural” law rather than God-given law, right? This affirming the exact opposite of what you were trying for.

Wrong...God created nature, humans included...

 

[watsup]

Wrong...God created nature, humans included...

The quote you listed does no mention anything about a God or creation, so it can indeed be used as an underpinning for the statement by the United Nations about human rights: “For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused." Romans 2:14,15

Humanism defined, really.

 

[Daisy]

The quote you listed does no mention anything about a God or creation, so it can indeed be used as an underpinning for the statement by the United Nations about human rights: “For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused." Romans 2:14,15

Humanism defined, really.

Not my fault if your power of reason is lacking...talking to you is like talking to a small child...do we really have to go back to Genesis with this?:roll:

 

[RAMOSS]

Wrong...God created nature, humans included...

That is your claim. However, that is your assumption too. Your claim is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[watsup]

Not my fault if your power of reason is lacking...talking to you is like talking to a small child...do we really have to go back to Genesis with this?:roll:

Ah yes, always the ad hom from the theists. Why? Do you not think that your arguments can stand on their own without always attempting to demean the other chatter through falsification?

Plus the “reasoning” that you always use: “it is so because I said it is so”. Yeah, whatever.

 

[Daisy]

Ah yes, always the ad hom from the theists. Why? Do you not think that your arguments can stand on their own without always attempting to demean the other chatter through falsification?

Plus the “reasoning” that you always use: “it is so because I said it is so”. Yeah, whatever.

The scriptures are in harmony, all the scriptures...when Paul speaks of inherent law being in a man's heart due to having a conscience, it is obvious he knew who created that heart/conscience...Jehovah God, so stop playing dumb...or are you being serious? :roll:

 

[watsup]

The scriptures are in harmony, all the scriptures...when Paul speaks of inherent law being in a man's heart due to having a conscience, it is obvious he knew who created that heart/conscience...Jehovah God, so stop playing dumb...or are you being serious? :roll:

Again with the ad hom. All it shows is that you don’t think that your arguments can stand on their own.
And again with the “because I said so”.
“The Scriptures are in harmony”.....”because I say they are”.
In spite of contradictions all over the place.
But you “say so”, so it must be true.

 

[Daisy]

Again with the ad hom. All it shows is that you don’t think that your arguments can stand on their own.
And again with the “because I said so”.
“The Scriptures are in harmony”.....”because I say they are”.
In spite of contradictions all over the place.
But you “say so”, so it must be true.

My arguments stand on the Bible...yours :failpail: so stop wasting my time with your nonsense...:roll:

 

[watsup]

My arguments stand on the Bible...yours :failpail: so stop wasting my time with your nonsense...:roll:

I know....because you say so!

 

[Dragonfly]

Alright, so other than some rather extreme generalities, has anyone actually posted what they consider to be a "god given right"?

Also - there's no reason to assume for the sake of this discussion that the "god" in question here must be the biblical/christian god.

 

[watsup]

Alright, so other than some rather extreme generalities, has anyone actually posted what they consider to be a "god given right"?

Also - there's no reason to assume for the sake of this discussion that the "god" in question here must be the biblical/christian god.

Peace, justice, and the American way!
Oh wait....that was Superman....

 

[NWO_Spook]

What are they?

What "rights" are "god given"?

Also, who are they given to? Is anyone left out from these rights?

Anyone who simply says: "Read the bible and you'll know" is just being lazy and not interested in debate/dialogue.
Hopefully most here will ignore those types of comments.

I cannot think of a single example of a 'god given right' and I have always considered the term to be nothing more than rhetoric. Rights are a human construct that were hard won and are tenuous if society becomes complacent.

 

[Visbek]

What are they? What "rights" are "god given"?

That depends on whom you ask.

Also, who are they given to? Is anyone left out from these rights?

That depends on whom you ask, and when you ask.

Many people did not believe that women had fewer rights than men. A relatively small group of people still believe that. The same goes for minorities, non-citizens, and so on.

Anyone who simply says: "Read the bible and you'll know" is just being lazy and not interested in debate/dialogue.

Well, the writings in the Christian canon never really advance a theory of rights. Its moral position is essentially an example of divine command.

Of course, not everyone is Christian. But regardless, the modern conception of "rights" is an Enlightenment concept with a few nods to any sort of divinity.

That said, if you want to demonstrate that you are not lazy, then feel free to read a few books on moral realism. :mrgreen:

 

[VanceMack]

There is only 1 God given right. Agency...the right to choose. Everything else is a myth.

 

[Dragonfly]

There is only 1 God given right. Agency...the right to choose. Everything else is a myth.

Interesting.

You don't chose to be born.
You don't chose your parents.
You don't chose the environment you're born into.
You don't chose the culture you're born into.

Basically you have little to no choice at all, on anything, throughout your formative years.


By the time you start having some measure of "agency", you've already been formed/manipulated/molded into a being that in the grander scheme of things follows a rather predictable path.

Evidence is quite strong for that too. Kids born into a catholic family tend to grow up and reproduce kids they raise as catholics.
You can replace catholic with many many other religions and it works.

So I'd like to ask, how do you come to the conclusion that Agency/Choice is a god given right?

 

[Dragonfly]

That depends on whom you ask.



That depends on whom you ask, and when you ask.

Many people did not believe that women had fewer rights than men. A relatively small group of people still believe that. The same goes for minorities, non-citizens, and so on.



Well, the writings in the Christian canon never really advance a theory of rights. Its moral position is essentially an example of divine command.

Of course, not everyone is Christian. But regardless, the modern conception of "rights" is an Enlightenment concept with a few nods to any sort of divinity.

That said, if you want to demonstrate that you are not lazy, then feel free to read a few books on moral realism. :mrgreen:

There are multiple mentions of "god given rights" in a few threads here.

Rather that derail other threads, I thought I'd make a new one.

 

[VanceMack]

Interesting.

You don't chose to be born.
You don't chose your parents.
You don't chose the environment you're born into.
You don't chose the culture you're born into.

Basically you have little to no choice at all, on anything, throughout your formative years.


By the time you start having some measure of "agency", you've already been formed/manipulated/molded into a being that in the grander scheme of things follows a rather predictable path.

Evidence is quite strong for that too. Kids born into a catholic family tend to grow up and reproduce kids they raise as catholics.
You can replace catholic with many many other religions and it works.

So I'd like to ask, how do you come to the conclusion that Agency/Choice is a god given right?

Not at all true. You have the ability to choose how you respond. Thats the thing about agency...others ALSO will always have that choice and sometimes people do things that impact you.

 

[RAMOSS]

The scriptures are in harmony, all the scriptures...when Paul speaks of inherent law being in a man's heart due to having a conscience, it is obvious he knew who created that heart/conscience...Jehovah God, so stop playing dumb...or are you being serious? :roll:

Scripture is only in 'harmony' if you ignore or try to make up really weird excuses for the contradictions.

 

[Dragonfly]

You have the ability to choose how you respond.

But how you respond if more or less pre-programmed into you based on how, where, and by who you've been raised.

Sure, some people just go off the rails. Many of those have some legitimate mental disorders.

Speaking of which, what's the god given right of choice/agency for a person born with severe mental issues?
The bipolar person for instance?

 

[VanceMack]

But how you respond if more or less pre-programmed into you based on how, where, and by who you've been raised.

Sure, some people just go off the rails. Many of those have some legitimate mental disorders.

Speaking of which, what's the god given right of choice/agency for a person born with severe mental issues?
The bipolar person for instance?

Not at all true. Many people are raised in environments and develop different social consciences from their peers and family.

You seem to think that Im advocating for God given magic or rights that dont exist. Im not. I dont believe God causes disability any more than he magically fixes disability for most people...miracles notwithstanding.

I believe God has the power to intervene in our lives, just as parents have the power to intervene in their childrens lives only his role is much larger. But he DOESNT...not because He doesnt love us but because He, like most parents, understands just how destructive it can be if a parent steps in any time something goes bad. I personally believe God set the ball rolling...and after that, the world pretty much responds how it is going to respond.

 

[Dragonfly]

Not at all true.

Totally true.

Many people are born into a cycle of life that dictates all kinds of advantages, and for many huge disadvantages.

People born into extreme poverty for example. Very rare to escape that cycle.
Surely can't do it simply be choosing to do it. It's not that simple.

 

[Daisy]

Scripture is only in 'harmony' if you ignore or try to make up really weird excuses for the contradictions.

Scripture only has contradictions if you don't understand it...

 

[RAMOSS]

Scripture only has contradictions if you don't understand it...

You make that claim. You have not been able to support that claim with reason, logic, or facts.