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God doesn't kill people

Elora

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devildavid

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Rumpel

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God didn't kill those people, the rain did.
God didn't kill Jesus, the Romans did.

If you want to say God doesn't save people from pain and death, even that will eventually become untrue.
As I said, He allows for the system of cause and effect.
God ordered men and women and children to be killed!

Just look there:

 

FurriesRock

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People keep saying 'why does God make little babies die in a fire or from cancer?' He tried to make it perfect in the Garden of Eden but mankind got bored, unappreciative, and chose a different path. And without free will and its ramifications, there can be no independent existence. So, the demise of babies or any other atrocities by man or nature is not directly from the creator. How can you have a system of cause and effect if you never allow for the negative effects? This is why He didn't even save Himself from being tortured to death, to allow for free will and autonomy.
You can't use free will as an argument unless you can prove that free will exists.

Free will is an illusion. You can only make right choices if you have right knowledge, no mental hangups, and actual free choice to make.

Think of it like this.

A rich man has a choice between buying a piece of bread or stealing a piece of bread. He chooses to buy the bread because he can afford it and he knows that stealing the bread is risky and may cause him trouble. He has free will.

A starving poor man has the same choice, but he chooses to steal the bread because he can't afford to buy it and knows that if he doesn't obtain it then he will die of starvation. The risk doesn't matter to him because his choice is reduced to obtain it or die. He has no free will.

Another example.

A man seeks a wife, so he dates several women and eventually finds one who is suitable to him, but is his choice of a wife free will? No, his choice is determined by cultural rules, beauty standards, geographic and racial limitations, and his experiences up to that point in his life. Free will in seeking a wife is merely an illusion.
 

Elora

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A starving poor man has the same choice, but he chooses to steal the bread because he can't afford to buy it and knows that if he doesn't obtain it then he will die of starvation. The risk doesn't matter to him because his choice is reduced to obtain it or die. He has no free will.
Or a starving man chooses not to break God's Law, no matter what...free will...

A man seeks a wife, so he dates several women and eventually finds one who is suitable to him, but is his choice of a wife free will? No, his choice is determined by cultural rules, beauty standards, geographic and racial limitations, and his experiences up to that point in his life. Free will in seeking a wife is merely an illusion.
Free will has limits...free will can be abused...
 

FurriesRock

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Or a starving man chooses not to break God's Law, no matter what...free will...


Free will has limits...free will can be abused...
But you still haven't proven that free will exists.
 

Gordy327

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Wrong... Jehovah can use/not use His power in any way He desires...
That doesn't change the fact free will is not logically possible.
 

Gordy327

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Or He is selective...Jehovah can do anything He wants...
That's illogical. If God doesn't know everything, then by definition he cannot be omniscient. In that circumstance, free will is possible.
 

devildavid

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Or a starving man chooses not to break God's Law, no matter what...free will...


Free will has limits...free will can be abused...

Free will is free. It cannot be abused, no matter what is chosen. Otherwise, it wouldn't truly be free will.
 

CaughtInThe

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People keep saying 'why does God make little babies die in a fire or from cancer?' He tried to make it perfect in the Garden of Eden but mankind got bored, unappreciative, and chose a different path. And without free will and its ramifications, there can be no independent existence. So, the demise of babies or any other atrocities by man or nature is not directly from the creator. How can you have a system of cause and effect if you never allow for the negative effects? This is why He didn't even save Himself from being tortured to death, to allow for free will and autonomy.
then people need to quit saying things like "God put me there that night to save her".
 

grip

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God ordered men and women and children to be killed!

Just look there:


Do you know what we'd do if some general or leader said, "God told me to bomb them?"
Rubber room.
 

grip

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You can't use free will as an argument unless you can prove that free will exists.

Free will is an illusion. You can only make right choices if you have right knowledge, no mental hangups, and actual free choice to make.

Think of it like this.

A rich man has a choice between buying a piece of bread or stealing a piece of bread. He chooses to buy the bread because he can afford it and he knows that stealing the bread is risky and may cause him trouble. He has free will.

A starving poor man has the same choice, but he chooses to steal the bread because he can't afford to buy it and knows that if he doesn't obtain it then he will die of starvation. The risk doesn't matter to him because his choice is reduced to obtain it or die. He has no free will.

Another example.

A man seeks a wife, so he dates several women and eventually finds one who is suitable to him, but is his choice of a wife free will? No, his choice is determined by cultural rules, beauty standards, geographic and racial limitations, and his experiences up to that point in his life. Free will in seeking a wife is merely an illusion.
Time is an illusion but we still adhere to it, just as we do the notion of free will. I think God both knows what we'll choose even though, it's not known to us. I know, it's a paradox beyond comprehension.

But Jesus gives an example of this when he says 'before Abraham was, I am.' Meaning that he is eternally present in every moment.
 

devildavid

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Time is an illusion but we still adhere to it, just as we do the notion of free will. I think God both knows what we'll choose even though, it's not known to us. I know, it's a paradox beyond comprehension.

But Jesus gives an example of this when he says 'before Abraham was, I am.' Meaning that he is eternally present in every moment.

God is an illusion that many still adhere to. Jesus is another illusion that a large group adheres to, but not the whole of humanity.
 

grip

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God is an illusion that many still adhere to. Jesus is another illusion that a large group adheres to, but not the whole of humanity.
I could be an illusion created by an AI bot? You never know where the wild goose goes. ;)
 
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