• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

GM offers workers up to $140K to leave

Indy

Phoenecian
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
408
Location
Chicago
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm?cnn=yes

Perhaps its time America realizes that we are not going to be able to hold onto our manufacturing jobs in this country. Its time to move on. If theres one thing that I respect most about this country is how we are constantly able to stay ahead of the game and CREATE the new cash crop industry. I started this thread to ask all of you:

Do you agree that America should switch our focus away from manufacturing jobs and find another field? And if so, which industry do you think America should move our focus to?
 

Korimyr the Rat

Baby Eating Monster
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
19,553
Reaction score
15,756
Location
Cheyenne, WY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
mnpollock said:
Do you agree that America should switch our focus away from manufacturing jobs and find another field?
No. The loss of our manufacturing base will make us economically and materially dependent upon the countries we're sending those jobs to-- most alarmingly China and Indonesia.

Do you want them to have the ability to shut our economy down?

Also, while everyone likes to point out that we have "more new jobs" there is a major and fundamental difference between a 40 hour/week full-time job with real wages benefits and a 38 hour/week "part-time" job at a quarter over minimum wage.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Korimyr the Rat said:
No. The loss of our manufacturing base will make us economically and materially dependent upon the countries we're sending those jobs to-- most alarmingly China and Indonesia.

Do you want them to have the ability to shut our economy down?

Also, while everyone likes to point out that we have "more new jobs" there is a major and fundamental difference between a 40 hour/week full-time job with real wages benefits and a 38 hour/week "part-time" job at a quarter over minimum wage.
That's probably exactly what we need, just like after Pearl Harbor, where we showed what America can do when she needs to. This just shows how lazy, and unmotivated we have become, when folks demand 50, 60 dollars an hour, and a healthcare package that makes me even feel less then covered, and all to turn a screw. The Unions have destroyed this country, and their close relationship to the Democratic party should be considered, money for nothin, and your checks for free.
 

128shot

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
1,258
Reaction score
31
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
mnpollock said:
: Do you agree that America should...on anything, I'd say the production of energy
 

Indy

Phoenecian
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
408
Location
Chicago
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Deegan said:
That's probably exactly what we need, just like after Pearl Harbor, where we showed what America can do when she needs to. This just shows how lazy, and unmotivated we have become, when folks demand 50, 60 dollars an hour, and a healthcare package that makes me even feel less then covered, and all to turn a screw. The Unions have destroyed this country, and their close relationship to the Democratic party should be considered, money for nothin, and your checks for free.

So just to clarify, you feel that we should fight for the manufacturing jobs and work them for minimum wage and a part time work week? If that is the case, then wouldn't that pretty much throw us into the category of a third world country if the bulk of our workforce is drastically below the poverty rate? I think the only option is to find something else.

And on a side note. What the heck is wrong with making a ton of money? Is it our fault that we managed to position our country in a way that allows us to do so? I thought that was the american dream.
 

Indy

Phoenecian
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
408
Location
Chicago
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Korimyr the Rat said:
No. The loss of our manufacturing base will make us economically and materially dependent upon the countries we're sending those jobs to-- most alarmingly China and Indonesia.

Do you want them to have the ability to shut our economy down?

Also, while everyone likes to point out that we have "more new jobs" there is a major and fundamental difference between a 40 hour/week full-time job with real wages benefits and a 38 hour/week "part-time" job at a quarter over minimum wage.

But if we went the way that 128 shot has suggested then we would be able to shut THEM down if they tried to do so. Think about it, if they rely on us for their energy needs, I don't think they would be foolish enough to stop sending us our steel and cars. Its kinda the same reason that everybody is insisting on being the Middle Easts friend. Nobody really wants to but we are forced to deal with them since they have all the oil.
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mnpollock said:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm?cnn=yes
Perhaps its time America realizes that we are not going to be able to hold onto our manufacturing jobs in this country. Its time to move on.
It's time realize that GM and FORD can't continue to operate under the pressures and inflecablity of UNIONS and the workers time to realize they can't get paid $29 and hour to insert a wire in a switch and retire after 20 years to fully paid medical and full salaries. It's time GM and FORD had that capital to modernize and get some better marketing departments.

The auto manufacturing industry is doing quite well, right down here in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia an Tennesse. Good jobs, good benifits, great work environment (non-union).


Do you agree that America should switch our focus away from manufacturing jobs and find another field? And if so, which industry do you think America should move our focus to?
Well if we continue to insist that EVERY child goes to college and get some bogus degree in sociology, media, black studies, womens studies, and all the other worthless areas and then they insist government create some program to pay them or they form some non-profit to get government grants to pay them to do worthless projects.............and then they don't want to do manual labor or work in a factory.
 

Stinger

DP Veteran
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
15,097
Reaction score
537
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
mnpollock said:
So just to clarify, you feel that we should fight for the manufacturing jobs and work them for minimum wage and a part time work week?
Who said that? But then are you saying we should somehow keep people working at manual jobs making over $100,000 a year and retiring after 20 years to elaborate benifits for the rest of their lives? Are you willing to have the government make you pay the subsidy to GM to pay for that?
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Stinger is on the right track. At the center, the GM and Ford problems are problems not of US manufacturing but of poor management at GM and Ford.

> Poor product decisions permitted other manufacturers to outsell on the basis of popularity.

> Poor management decisions permitted GM and Ford to burden themselves with exorbitantly expensive labor contracts.

> Poor manufacturing permitted non-US manufacturers to gain reputations of superior quality.

As stinger correctly points out, just look at the non-US manufacturers who have now established manufacturing plants centered mostly in the mid-south but also in other parts of the US. For example, 80% of the Toyota vehicles sold in the US are (or will be when their newest factory comes online) manufactured in the US.

Bottom line for the auto industry in the US: the auto manufacturing industry is alive and thriving in the US. But because they screwed the pooch, it is no longer owned by GM and Ford.
 

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Another thing sucking GM down to defeat is "affirmative action", which is rampant in that company. The companies that survive will hire and promote based on ability. Meanwhile the people who are wise will take the $140K, and get off that sinking ship as fast as possible.
 

Indy

Phoenecian
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 4, 2006
Messages
2,089
Reaction score
408
Location
Chicago
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Stinger said:
Well if we continue to insist that EVERY child goes to college and get some bogus degree in sociology, media, black studies, womens studies, and all the other worthless areas and then they insist government create some program to pay them or they form some non-profit to get government grants to pay them to do worthless projects.............and then they don't want to do manual labor or work in a factory.

This is not what I was reffering to at all. I agree that having all kids go to college to get polysci and liberal arts majors if worthless. I was talking about having them get Engineering, Computer Science, Biomedical, etc. degrees and develope a brand new field. We don't necessarially have to have manufacturing jobs is what I was trying to get across.

Also, I'm getting from your posts that you are very anti-union. I'm curious, do you think that there are any instances that having a union would be a good thing and beneficial to the company?
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
oldreliable67 said:
Stinger is on the right track.[
UH, No.

oldreliable67 said:
At the center, the GM and Ford problems are problems not of US manufacturing but of poor management at GM and Ford.
Now we're getting somewhere.

If someone is willing to pay you 'X' amount of money per hour, paid vacation, medical insurance, retirement benefits are you going to say "oh no, that's too much, I'll just work for the bare minimum and barely feed, clothe and house my family". Ludicrous!!! Hourly workers made concessions after concessions. Management screwed the pooch!! There are many high school graduate jobs that pay around the $30 an hour range and their companies aren't having these problems.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
BWG said:
You said "no" in response to my comment that Stinger "was on the right track". I don't know which of Stinger's comments you were indirectly referring to as not being on the right track, but here is the comment that I was referring to...

The auto manufacturing industry is doing quite well, right down here in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia an Tennesse. Good jobs, good benifits, great work environment (non-union).
This comment is truthful and factual and points to the obvious: GM and Ford no longer dominate the US auto mfg industry as they once did; that industry is alive and well (and profitable) under new and more capable management.

bwg said:
If someone is willing to pay you 'X' amount of money per hour, paid vacation, medical insurance, retirement benefits are you going to say "oh no, that's too much, I'll just work for the bare minimum and barely feed, clothe and house my family". Ludicrous!!! Hourly workers made concessions after concessions. Management screwed the pooch!! There are many high school graduate jobs that pay around the $30 an hour range and their companies aren't having these problems.
You have quoted me with the 'management screwed the pooch" comment, so we agree on that part. But, you're getting out in left field with 'hourly workers made concessions after concessions' bit. Management agreed to union contracts that were outrageous and have strongly contributed to the current precarious situation at GM and Ford. A good example of this is the 'Rubber Room', where GM employees go to while away the time while getting paid full or near-full salary...

This is the "Jobs Bank," a two-decade-old program under which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many do volunteer jobs or go back to school. The rest must clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

It is called the rubber room, Mr. Mellon says, because "a few days in there makes you go crazy."

The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies including Ford Motor Co. is likely to cost around $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese auto makers with big U.S. operations prosper.

While GM often blames "legacy costs" such as retiree health care and pensions for its troubles, its Job Bank shows that the company has inflicted some wounds on itself. Documents show that GM itself helped originate the Jobs Bank idea in 1984 and agreed to expand it in 1990, seeing it as a stopgap until times got better and workers could go back to the factories.


Source.

Management did screw the pooch, with lots of assistance from the UAW.
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
oldreliable67 said:
You said "no" in response to my comment that Stinger "was on the right track". I don't know which of Stinger's comments you were indirectly referring to as not being on the right track,....
The one where ALL the blame is on the Union.


oldreliable67 said:
You have quoted me with the 'management screwed the pooch" comment, so we agree on that part. But, you're getting out in left field with 'hourly workers made concessions after concessions' bit. Management agreed to union contracts that were outrageous and have strongly contributed to the current precarious situation at GM and Ford. A good example of this is the 'Rubber Room', where GM employees go to while away the time while getting paid full or near-full salary...
'management screwed the pooch" was my comment..LOL

This is the "Jobs Bank," a two-decade-old program under which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many do volunteer jobs or go back to school. The rest must clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

It is called the rubber room, Mr. Mellon says, because "a few days in there makes you go crazy."

The Jobs Bank at GM and other U.S. auto companies including Ford Motor Co. is likely to cost around $1.4 billion to $2 billion this year. The programs, which are up for renewal next year when union contracts expire, have become a symbol of why Detroit struggles even as Japanese auto makers with big U.S. operations prosper.

While GM often blames "legacy costs" such as retiree health care and pensions for its troubles, its Job Bank shows that the company has inflicted some wounds on itself. Documents show that GM itself helped originate the Jobs Bank idea in 1984 and agreed to expand it in 1990, seeing it as a stopgap until times got better and workers could go back to the factories.


Union Concessions:

A federal judge has given tentative approval to the United Auto Workers' agreement with Ford Motor Co. on healthcare concessions.

Source


Delphi, Visteon Get UAW Concessions
Two-tier wages now a reality - and more are coming.

Source

The United Auto Workers wants a federal court in Detroit to approve its tentative health care agreement with General Motors.

The deal will save GM about $3 billion a year in health care expenses if ratified by union members. It's also projected to reduce GM's retiree health care liabilities by about 25 percent, or $15 billion.

Source

This week, the United Auto Workers made historical concessions to GM, aimed at cutting costs before there are no jobs because there is no GM.

Source

I'm not saying that the unions are little angels in all this, but like anyone else would do, they took what was given.
 

stsburns

American Infidel
DP Veteran
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
46
Location
Pergatory
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
mnpollock said:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm?cnn=yes

Perhaps its time America realizes that we are not going to be able to hold onto our manufacturing jobs in this country. Its time to move on. If theres one thing that I respect most about this country is how we are constantly able to stay ahead of the game and CREATE the new cash crop industry. I started this thread to ask all of you:

Do you agree that America should switch our focus away from manufacturing jobs and find another field? And if so, which industry do you think America should move our focus to?
GM is giving out $15,820,000,000 or about $16 Billion Dollars? Wow the Suburbon has really taken a "Turn" for the worst? I mean GM should'nt have put all of their money into SUV's? That would have been a start. :rofl
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Not that it matters, but I said that you quoted me because I made the following comment in post #9 in this thread, well before your posts:

But because they screwed the pooch,
Now, as to the union concessions. First, I did not lay all the blame at the feet of the Unions. Go back and re-read my comments and you will see that I suggest that in two out of three root causes, management has played a substantial role in getting GM and Ford into their current predicament (to repeat from my earlier post):

> Poor product decisions permitted other manufacturers to outsell on the basis of popularity.

> Poor management decisions permitted GM and Ford to burden themselves with exorbitantly expensive labor contracts.

> Poor manufacturing permitted non-US manufacturers to gain reputations of superior quality.

More specifically to your post, note the dates on your cites of union concessions:

> Ford Motor Co. on healthcare concessions...March 2, 2006.

> Delphi, Visteon Get UAW Concessions...May 3, 2004.

> The United Auto Workers wants a federal court in Detroit to approve its tentative health care agreement with General Motors...October 19, 2005.

> United Auto Workers made historical concessions to GM, aimed at cutting costs before there are no jobs because there is no GM... October 21, 2005


All of your cites reflect the situation as it exists now; they say nothing about how the situation has arisen. Yep, the UAW is now facing facts and oh-so-grudging concessions. But notice the phrasing in your last cite, "before there are no jobs left because there is no GM". Concessions are now being made, now that the risk of total jobs loss is real.

Saying that the unions 'took what was given' totally and completely under-states the UAW role in negotiations. A little reading of the history of these negotiations will educate you to the activist role of the UAW. To say that the UAW just 'took what was given' is just completely wrong.

I reiterate, it took both the US auto manufacturers and the UAW to create this mess. There is plenty of fault to be found with both.
 

BWG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
4,373
Reaction score
1,602
Location
South Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
oldreliable67 said:
I reiterate, it took both the US auto manufacturers and the UAW to create this mess. There is plenty of fault to be found with both.
Agreed.

My response of "Now we're getting somewhere" is your acknowledgement of the problems of the Big 3 does not lie solely at the feet of the unions, as others in here have done.

My links to concessions by the unions was in response to:

oldreliable67 said:
But, you're getting out in left field with 'hourly workers made concessions after concessions' bit.
I took that to mean that the unions had not offered any type of concessions.

Although I have never been involved with UAW, I have been involved with a union almost all of my working career (OCAW, now PACE), on both sides of the fence. Those contracts (UAW) were negotiated and signed by BOTH management and labor when the Big 3 was America, money was flowing like the Mississippi, with no end in sight. So fully paid medical, generous pensions, pay, profit sharing etc. was no big deal, everybody was happy. The companies and shareholders (some of whom were UAW members..LOL) were happy, everybody wins. Then things changed.

Now we're coming to 'now'. Management made bad decisions, money started to become tight, they were having a hard time delivering the promises they made to their employees. By the way labor costs aren't the only problems they're having. The companies went to the UAW and asked for their help and the UAW made concessions. Why would they give up negotiated benefits beforehand, out of the clear blue when they didn't have to before now?

So it sounds as though we recognize that all the fault does not rest with the dreaded, hated, cause of all of America's labor problems, the Union. On a side note it always makes me chuckle when I read on here how much conservatives hate welfare, freeloading, non-productive people being a drag on our economy. Then on the other hand when hard working, productive members of our society are trying to better themselves and their families, they are accused of conspiring to bring down corporate America. :rofl
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Bad unions cost millions, but bad management cost billions. GM could afford the union costs if they could sell their products at a profit. My understanding is that despite the financial woes at GM the execs still gave themselves fat bonuses. Toyota execs get paid less and actually make their company money....
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
scottyz said:
Bad unions cost millions, but bad management cost billions. GM could afford the union costs if they could sell their products at a profit. My understanding is that despite the financial woes at GM the execs still gave themselves fat bonuses. Toyota execs get paid less and actually make their company money....
Since when have the Japanese allowed Unions?
 

128shot

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
1,258
Reaction score
31
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Deegan said:
Since when have the Japanese allowed Unions?

in Japan, there is a Union for just about everything.
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Deegan said:
Since when have the Japanese allowed Unions?
Japan has 70,000 trade unions, do they not? Japan does have universal heath care and the pay and benifits offered in the U.S. are comparable to what the Union workers get. The difference is that a company like Toyota can make a profit selling cars and GM can't. The reason so many U.S. automakers are moving factories to Canada is the universal health care.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
128shot said:
in Japan, there is a Union for just about everything.
But nothing like Unions here, they actually have it right there, or as close to right, but miles above our broken system.
 

Deegan

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
5,528
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
When I think Union, I think criminal........hey, that's what the mob thought as well, how right they were!:doh
 

128shot

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
1,258
Reaction score
31
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Deegan said:
But nothing like Unions here, they actually have it right there, or as close to right, but miles above our broken system.

Japan pays the highest prices in the world for a reason.


Unions hate the outside world over there.
 

Synch

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
564
Reaction score
16
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Unions are undermining this country from the inside out, our manufacturing industry, education of our future generation, etc. Over interference with the companies' pricing decisions, forcing them to be more inefficient by over paying workers, by creating artificially high paid workers, it will cost more for GM to create a car than another foreign company, therefore the price will either have to rise, or they can't make a profit.

Or, since they won't be able to make a profit paying workers so high, the jobs are destroyed, gone, and people instead of having fair wages get nothing.

http://www.unionfacts.com/
 
Top Bottom