Glee's Cory Monteith dies of overdose

[Captain Adverse]

I'm prepared to be slammed by the gun ownership advocates but, except for the constitutional argument, the same arguments for or against drugs can be made.

- guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns = drugs don't kill people, people abusing drugs kill people

- with proper training and responsibility, gun ownership can be an enjoyable passtime and hobby for people who respect the danger and power of guns = with proper training and responsibility, drug use can be an enjoyable passtime and hobby for people who respect the danger and power of drugs

- gun control/prohibition only allows criminals to have and sell guns and honest citizens not to = drug control/prohibition only allows criminals to have and sell drugs and honest citizens not to

- illegal trafficing in guns is the cause of many gun related crimes = illegal trafficing in drugs is the cause of many drug related crimes

It's a subject that causes me internal conflict, but it may simply be time to legalize and regulate the wide variety of recreational drugs, similar to alcohol and guns and severely punish those who continue to illegally deal drugs.

Why would a gun rights supporter slam you? I am a 2nd Amendment supporter and I also believe that the use and possession of drugs for use should be decriminalized.

Basically I agree with your arguments. So there! lol

 

[ChrisL]

Not entirely true or persuasive. Though it is illegal, we do have legal pharmaceutical cocaine available. Though it is illegal on the street, we do have legal morphine available.

I'm glad you are amused, but arguing with misinformed people is not amusing, it is tiresome.

Your misinformed and misrepresenting things, as usual. No, people cannot get legal cocaine. Only a doctor could administer such a drug, and the only time cocaine is used is to numb the nostrils during a rhinoplasty or other such procedure. No, only a doctor can administer morphine. You cannot get it without a prescription, and when it is prescribed, it is under a doctor's close observation. And even with such safeguards, patients STILL become addicted. Your claims are just false.

 

[Fisher]

That's not a coherent argument, for several reasons. Other substances and items do the same thing. The historical record shows prohibition of consumer items to be utterly ineffective, and full of unintended consequences.

Take another try if you'd like, but be advised it's a losing proposition.

I don't need to try again when I am right, nor do I think we should allow people to ruin their lives with easy access to drugs like heroin because a bunch of self-indulgent former hippies feel entitled to smoke weed and listen to Pink Floyd, The Dead or whoever it is they listen to.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Why would a gun rights supporter slam you? I am a 2nd Amendment supporter and I also believe that the use and possession of drugs for use should be decriminalized.

Basically I agree with your arguments. So there! lol

Many gun ownership advocates may feel that wide and legal access to drugs may make society more dangerous - they may be right - I don't have the answers. I believe in personal responsibility and personal freedom to do as you please with your body and your life provided that freedom does not lead to harming others.

 

[Thoreau72]

Your misinformed and misrepresenting things, as usual. No, people cannot get legal cocaine. Only a doctor could administer such a drug, and the only time cocaine is used is to numb the nostrils during a rhinoplasty or other such procedure. No, only a doctor can administer morphine. You cannot get it without a prescription, and when it is prescribed, it is under a doctor's close observation. And even with such safeguards, patients STILL become addicted. Your claims are just false.

You silly goose, I didn't say it was available on the street.

You claimed that "we have ONLY black market _____ available". That is an inaccurate statement, and I was correcting it.

But I can appreciate how frustrating it must be to make such clownish statements and then try to walk them back. :doh

 

[ChrisL]

You silly goose, I didn't say it was available on the street.

You claimed that "we have ONLY black market _____ available". That is an inaccurate statement, and I was correcting it.

But I can appreciate how frustrating it must be to make such clownish statements and then try to walk them back. :doh

We only have black market heroin available is what I said. Now who's making clownish statements, as usual?

 

[ChrisL]

Here's the quotes to show you how wrong you are as usual. I say we only have black market heroin available, and you move the goal posts to cocaine (which is only used during surgery under the care of an anesthesiologist) and prescription-level morphine. Both ENTIRELY different from having them available and legal as recreational drugs. DERP!

Uh, hello? We ONLY have black market heroin available. It's ILLEGAL. LOL! You ARE amusing.

Not entirely true or persuasive. Though it is illegal, we do have legal pharmaceutical cocaine available. Though it is illegal on the street, we do have legal morphine available.

I'm glad you are amused, but arguing with misinformed people is not amusing, it is tiresome.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Many gun ownership advocates may feel that wide and legal access to drugs may make society more dangerous - they may be right - I don't have the answers. I believe in personal responsibility and personal freedom to do as you please with your body and your life provided that freedom does not lead to harming others.

Maybe. However I'd think they would be more apt to state that if drug use were legal, it could neither be used as a defense nor a mitigating factor for actual criminal behavior conducted when under the influence. In fact it could be considered an aggravating enhancer for sentencing purposes. That's how I would see it anyway.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Maybe. However I'd think they would be more apt to state that if drug use were legal, it could neither be used as a defense nor a mitigating factor for actual criminal behavior conducted when under the influence. In fact it could be considered and aggravating enhancer for sentencing purposes. That's how I would see it anyway.

I don't know about the US, but they're certainly doing that here now - DUI no longer is just related to alcohol consumption but to drug impairment as well.

 

[Thoreau72]

Maybe. However I'd think they would be more apt to state that if drug use were legal, it could neither be used as a defense nor a mitigating factor for actual criminal behavior conducted when under the influence. In fact it could be considered an aggravating enhancer for sentencing purposes. That's how I would see it anyway.

As well it should be.

If a person assaults another, or commits any other crime, it should not matter whether he is drunk or sober.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

Uh, hello? We ONLY have black market heroin available. It's ILLEGAL. LOL! You ARE amusing.

But, to the body, Oxycontin and heroin are nearly identical. Indeed, for an addict they are interchangeable.

 

[ChrisL]

But, to the body, OxyContin and heroin are nearly identical. Indeed, for an addict they are interchangeable.

Look at the problems with Oxy. Most pharmacies won't even carry it because they get robbed for it. It's extremely addictive and people commit crimes to get it. So thanks for demonstrating my point with the OxyContin example.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

Look at the problems with Oxy. Most pharmacies won't even carry it because they get robbed for it. It's extremely addictive and people commit crimes to get it. So thanks for demonstrating my point with the OxyContin example.

BUT - an Oxy addict can seek help without fear of arrest (unless, of course, they've stolen the drug); while a heroin addict must fear criminal charges - despite the fact that the body sees no difference in the two.

If you have a doctor that you can convince easily enough, you can get your fix legally. If not, you're constantly at risk of arrest.

 

[ChrisL]

BUT - an Oxy addict can seek help without fear of arrest (unless, of course, they've stolen the drug); while a heroin addict must fear criminal charges - despite the fact that the body sees no difference in the two.

If you have a doctor that you can convince easily enough, you can get your fix legally. If not, you're constantly at risk of arrest.

Well, you obviously missed my other posts. My point is that this type of drug is the type that requires more and more in order to achieve that level of highness that the user desires. MOST heroin users overdose at one point or another, that is because it takes SO much to get high and the body can't handle that much, and the heart stops as do the rest of the bodily systems. These users are actually angry when a doctor pumps them up with Narcan to reverse the effects of the heroin because the doctor "ruined their high."

Also, no medical professional is going to give a heroin addict enough heroin to suffice. He would probably end up robbing anyways and getting his drugs off the street level dealers same as always. These people don't think rationally and when they are addicted the only thing they care about is getting their next fix.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

Well, you obviously missed my other posts. My point is that this type of drug is the type that requires more and more in order to achieve that level of highness that the user desires. MOST heroin users overdose at one point or another, that is because it takes SO much to get high and the body can't handle that much, and the heart stops as do the rest of the bodily systems. These users are actually angry when a doctor pumps them up with Narcan to reverse the effects of the heroin because the doctor "ruined their high."

Also, no medical professional is going to give a heroin addict enough heroin to suffice. He would probably end up robbing anyways and getting his drugs off the street level dealers same as always. These people don't think rationally and when they are addicted the only thing they care about is getting their next fix.

I don't think you saw my prior post either. I'm aware of all those things. I just don't think criminality keeps an addict from becoming an addict, but I believe it can keep them from seeking help when the time comes.

 

[ChrisL]

I don't think you saw my prior post either. I'm aware of all those things. I just don't think criminality keeps an addict from becoming an addict, but I believe it can keep them from seeking help when the time comes.

Right, and I said decriminalize heroin and other such drugs, but not legalize. Marijuana and other such mild drugs, fine legalize away.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

Right, and I said decriminalize heroin and other such drugs, but not legalize. Marijuana and other such mild drugs, fine legalize away.

Now, I think we're on the same page!

 

[tererun]

No, I've witnessed it first hand. Like I said, I had a friend who was just 20 years old when she died from heroin overdose. She went downhill VERY quickly. Chasing the dragon is the nature of the beast when it comes to heroin. It is EXTREMELY physically addicting. These people don't just get "sick." They suffer from excruciating pain and spasms from physical withdrawal.

So you have seen one person. I have seen many people do heroin from time to time and simply not go to a bad extreme. One must also note that as humans we see things that get our attention, and people who do not have problems with the substance do not draw your attention, though they may be around.

Both situations could be addressed with legal sales of heroin and opiates. They are not, as claimed by some places, immediately addictive.

Obviously, you don't understand the nature of addiction. :roll: You don't give them enough? They're going to get it one way or another. They will prostitute themselves, steal and sometimes even kill for it. It's NOT cigarettes or alcohol, which are also addictive, but the addiction to heroin is entirely something else.

Even in your little quote you simply do not allow the changes to take effect. you allow time for the body to recover. The problems with heroin occur over time, and not immediately. The reason why it appears to you to occur immediately is because your friend jumped in and never stopped. Many people do stop. Some people find the drug doesn't take them where they want to go so they don't do it after the first time. There is no substance i know of that makes you immediately addicted the first moment you take it. Also claims that are blatant lies only seek to undermine anything you say when a person tries things and realizes you are full of crap. Your fear only lasts as long as people trust you, and that way seems to be failing pretty hard.

This shows me how naive you are on the subject of drug addiction.

Except for knowing more than one person, actually researching it beyond your little bit, and personal experiences with drugs. But I guess you are right, i do not read DARE brochures like you do and freak out so i do not know anything.

 

[WI Crippler]

So this guy ODs, causing strife for his family, friends, co-stars, and fans and we are supposed to feel sympathy and sorrow. But Mark McGuire belts a few extra home runs on Andro and he's a disgrace to the country.

 

[ChrisL]

So you have seen one person. I have seen many people do heroin from time to time and simply not go to a bad extreme. One must also note that as humans we see things that get our attention, and people who do not have problems with the substance do not draw your attention, though they may be around.

You've seen people do heroin "from time to time?" It is a medical fact that heroin is extremely addictive. MOST people who use will become addicts eventually.

Even in your little quote you simply do not allow the changes to take effect. you allow time for the body to recover. The problems with heroin occur over time, and not immediately. The reason why it appears to you to occur immediately is because your friend jumped in and never stopped. Many people do stop. Some people find the drug doesn't take them where they want to go so they don't do it after the first time. There is no substance i know of that makes you immediately addicted the first moment you take it. Also claims that are blatant lies only seek to undermine anything you say when a person tries things and realizes you are full of crap. Your fear only lasts as long as people trust you, and that way seems to be failing pretty hard.

You misread my post. I said the effects are NOT immediate. That you can use it once or twice and perhaps not develop an addiction, but most people are using heroin are not "time to time" users. They are full on addicts. It's the addictive nature of the drug. And most people who use hard drugs like that are NOT "social users" because most of the time they already have an addictive personality.

Except for knowing more than one person, actually researching it beyond your little bit, and personal experiences with drugs. But I guess you are right, i do not read DARE brochures like you do and freak out so i do not know anything.

I've known several people who have used heroin. I know ONE young girl who died from a heroin overdose. Another I know died from congestive heart failure at 45 years old, and another died from suicide. I actually know SEVERAL people who were drug users or alcoholics and committed suicide. Quit making assumptions about my life little pony.

 

[tererun]

Seriously? Heroin addicts will lie and cheat. They will forge their paperwork and do almost anything to get a fix. They aren't going to listen to the doctor because the ONLY thing that matters to them is where are they going to get their next fix and getting high. NOTHING else matters.

You lie and cheat and you lose your license. no more fix for you because legal sales just destroyed the illegal drug trade. We also get tax money to crack down on illegal sales while crippling the drug dealers because we have removed their main income.

 

[ChrisL]

You lie and cheat and you lose your license. no more fix for you because legal sales just destroyed the illegal drug trade. We also get tax money to crack down on illegal sales while crippling the drug dealers because we have removed their main income.

What "legal" establishment is going to prescribe a heroin addict (don't forget, we ARE talking about addicts here, not "casual" users, as if they exist when speaking in terms of heroin) a lethal dose of heroin in order to satisfy their need to get high? That is why I don't believe that it would come close to resolving the problem. I think that a lot of addicts will still be reliant upon their street dealers. Street dealers will front it, trade it for sex or other things which no legal establishment would accept in lieu of payments.

 

[Thrilla]

it's sad... the guy had talent.

as for his addiction to heroine... we should probably make Heroine illegal ... that would have stopped him from ODing
if it's prohibited, they can't get their hands on it... they can't get addicted and die.




ahhh hell... it's already prohibited?.... damn, I'll have to come up with new bull**** to support prohibition now.

 

[tererun]

You've seen people do heroin "from time to time?" It is a medical fact that heroin is extremely addictive. MOST people who use will become addicts eventually.

I will agree it is very addictive. however, the reality is most people who have done it have not become addicts. There are many who do, but it certainly is not an inevitable conclusion.

You misread my post. I said the effects are NOT immediate. That you can use it once or twice and perhaps not develop an addiction, but most people are using heroin are not "time to time" users. They are full on addicts. It's the addictive nature of the drug. And most people who use hard drugs like that are NOT "social users" because most of the time they already have an addictive personality.

here is another problem. most people you are shown or know who use heroin are addicts. that is because they develop problems. You do not see the people who do it and do not get addicted because they simply do not develop problems from it. It is an illegal substance with a negative stigma associated with it. That means people are not going to come up to you and tell you about their heroin use. You assume improperly that you see all heroin users. You see the problem children.

I've known several people who have used heroin. I know ONE young girl who died from a heroin overdose. Another I know died from congestive heart failure at 45 years old, and another died from suicide. I actually know SEVERAL people who were drug users or alcoholics and committed suicide. Quit making assumptions about my life little pony.

believe me, that is not a lot. I have played in places you would not dare, and because of that i know things you will never know because you will never see. Oh, and suicide is a bit different from an OD. If you are a drug user and do not want to commit suicide, get a better drug for the evening. They are called depressants for a reason.

 

[tererun]

What "legal" establishment is going to prescribe a heroin addict (don't forget, we ARE talking about addicts here, not "casual" users, as if they exist when speaking in terms of heroin) a lethal dose of heroin in order to satisfy their need to get high? That is why I don't believe that it would come close to resolving the problem. I think that a lot of addicts will still be reliant upon their street dealers. Street dealers will front it, trade it for sex or other things which no legal establishment would accept in lieu of payments.

You really are being purposefully obtuse at this point. I never claimed anyone would do that, or that it would even be a part of the process. try dealing with what I actually said instead of the arguments you wanted me to say so you can avoid having a real conversation. I DARE you.