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Gingrich-America surrounded in PAGANISM!

The Franklin Prayer Myth​

Benjamin Franklin has been venereated as one of the wise men of the Revolutionary Period. Along with that veneration has grown a myth that he called for three days of prayer during the recess for July 4, 1787 and the addition of a chaplain to lead prayers for the daily meetings of the Consitutional Convention. It is further said that after this period of prayer meetings, the Constitutional Convention resumed with the addition of the chaplain and sped peacefully to concluding the writing of The Constitution.

Like all myths, this one has elements of truth along with its more imaginative elements The myth seems to be based entirely on the tertiary evidence supplied by a letter written by one William Steele to his son Jonathan in 1825. In the letter, Steel records a story told him in 1815 by General Jonathan Dayton about events of the Convention in 1787--28 years before.

The documentation of the Convention states only that Dr. Franklin proposed daily prayer led by a clergyman and that the Convention adjourned without passing the motion. Records of the remainder of the convention indicate that acrimonious debate continued right through to the end.

The materials below document the events leading to the myth in chronological order.

The Franklin Prayer Myth

That's a pretty complicated explanation of how something could be a myth.

Anyhow, I posted that a while ago and can't remember the context in which I did right now.

Is there a specific point you'd like to make?
 
The UnAmended Constitution excluded religion from the cognizance of the Federal Government.

How, other than the religious test section? And why does it matter? It's amended now.
 
The argument assumes the "Jeffersonian/Limited Government/Enumerated Powers Only" interpretation of the Constitution.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, whatever, the First Amendment pretty much enumerated it anyway.
 
The Franklin Prayer Myth​

Benjamin Franklin has been venereated as one of the wise men of the Revolutionary Period. Along with that veneration has grown a myth that he called for three days of prayer during the recess for July 4, 1787 and the addition of a chaplain to lead prayers for the daily meetings of the Consitutional Convention. It is further said that after this period of prayer meetings, the Constitutional Convention resumed with the addition of the chaplain and sped peacefully to concluding the writing of The Constitution.

Like all myths, this one has elements of truth along with its more imaginative elements The myth seems to be based entirely on the tertiary evidence supplied by a letter written by one William Steele to his son Jonathan in 1825. In the letter, Steel records a story told him in 1815 by General Jonathan Dayton about events of the Convention in 1787--28 years before.

The documentation of the Convention states only that Dr. Franklin proposed daily prayer led by a clergyman and that the Convention adjourned without passing the motion. Records of the remainder of the convention indicate that acrimonious debate continued right through to the end.

The materials below document the events leading to the myth in chronological order.

The Franklin Prayer Myth

My understanding of this is that Franklin did propose prayers, during the contentious time of the Convention where there was danger of it breaking up due to disagreement on state's rights. His proposal went nowhere.

There had been no prayer prior to that, from the beginning of the Convention.

I will have to look this up again to be sure of the details. But you are also right that there was not much interest among the attendees in Franklin's idea. I believe Franklin wrote later that only 3 or 4 men showed much interest in this new proposal for formal prayer.
 
The Franklin Prayer Myth​

Benjamin Franklin has been venereated as one of the wise men of the Revolutionary Period. Along with that veneration has grown a myth that he called for three days of prayer during the recess for July 4, 1787 and the addition of a chaplain to lead prayers for the daily meetings of the Consitutional Convention. It is further said that after this period of prayer meetings, the Constitutional Convention resumed with the addition of the chaplain and sped peacefully to concluding the writing of The Constitution.

Like all myths, this one has elements of truth along with its more imaginative elements The myth seems to be based entirely on the tertiary evidence supplied by a letter written by one William Steele to his son Jonathan in 1825. In the letter, Steel records a story told him in 1815 by General Jonathan Dayton about events of the Convention in 1787--28 years before.

The documentation of the Convention states only that Dr. Franklin proposed daily prayer led by a clergyman and that the Convention adjourned without passing the motion. Records of the remainder of the convention indicate that acrimonious debate continued right through to the end.

The materials below document the events leading to the myth in chronological order.

The Franklin Prayer Myth

I screwed up, didn't look to see this thread was dead. Anyway, here's Franklin's document with the prayer, and his asterisked sentence at the end reveals the outcome.



June 11, 1787

_Motion for Prayers in the Convention_

MR. PRESIDENT,
The small Progress we have made, after 4 or 5 Weeks' close
Attendance and continual Reasonings with each other, our different
Sentiments on almost every Question, several of the last producing as
many _Noes_ as _Ayes_, is, methinks, a melancholy Proof of the
Imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to _feel_
our own want of political Wisdom, since we have been running all
about in Search of it. We have gone back to ancient History for
Models of Government, and examin'd the different Forms of those
Republics, which, having been originally form'd with the Seeds of
their own Dissolution, now no longer exist; and we have view'd modern
States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions
suitable to our Circumstances.

In this Situation of this Assembly, groping, as it were, in the
dark to find Political Truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when
presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto
once thought of humbly applying to the Father of Lights to illuminate
our Understandings? In the Beginning of the Contest with Britain,
when we were sensible of Danger, we had daily Prayers in this Room
for the Divine Protection. Our Prayers, Sir, were heard; -- and they
were graciously answered. All of us, who were engag'd in the
Struggle, must have observed frequent Instances of a superintending
Providence in our Favour. To that kind Providence we owe this happy
Opportunity of Consulting in Peace on the Means of establishing our
future national Felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful
Friend? or do we imagine we no longer need its assistance? I have
lived, Sir, a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing
proofs I see of this Truth, _that_ GOD _governs in the Affairs of
Men._ And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice,
is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid? We have been
assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the
House, they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and
I also believe, that, without his concurring Aid, we shall succeed in
this political Building no better than the Builders of Babel; we
shall be divided by our little, partial, local Interests, our
Projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a Reproach
and a Bye-word down to future Ages. And, what is worse, Mankind may
hereafter, from this unfortunate Instance, despair of establishing
Government by human Wisdom, and leave it to Chance, War, and
Conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move,

That henceforth Prayers, imploring the Assistance of Heaven and
its Blessing on our Deliberations, be held in this Assembly every
morning before we proceed to Business; and that one or more of the
Clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that Service. (*)

(*) The convention, except three or four persons, thought
prayers unnecessary!


http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/vc006642.jpg
 
There was a weekend conference that featured Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee. It was stated that America is awash in paganism.

There are a number of disturbing things made by both Huckabee and Gingrich.



Yep, ideas and people had nothing to do with it.:roll: How about people achieved the revolution by utilizing their natural born rights!? The innate theory of rights promulgated by Locke and other enlightenment philosophers was the only driving force to win the revolution, supernatural acts by god was in no way, a part of the equation.



Where specifically in the Constitution does it say that? Atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Unitarians, and others are not citizens!?:shock: It would do Newt well to read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

I would also disagree with the notion that we are awash in Paganism. :rofl
It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible. -- George Washington

Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. -- George Washington

"By the all-powerful dispensations of Providence, I have been protected beyond all human probability and expectation; for I had four bullets through my coat, and two horses shot under me, yet escaped unhurt, altho' death was levelling my companions on every side." -- [George Washington] Letter to John A. Washington, July 18, 1755

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever." - [Thomas Jefferson] Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 18, 1781

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - [John Adams] Address to the Military, October 11, 1798

"I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof!" -- [John Adams] Letter to Abigail Adams, referring to the White House, November 2, 1800

"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution." -- [James Madison] Federalist Papers, No. 37, January 11, 1788

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." -- [Patrick Henry] Speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses, May, 1765

"The view which the rising greatness of our country presents to my eye is greatly tarnished by the general prevalence of deism which with me, is but another name for vice and depravity. I am, however, much consoled by reflecting, that the religion of Christ has, from its first appearance in the world, been attacked in vain by all the wits, philosophers, and wise ones aided by every power of man, and its triumph has been complete." -- [Patrick Henry] Letter to Betsy Aylett, his daughter, August 20, 1796

"Religion in a Family is at once its brightest Ornament & its best Security. The first Point of Justice, says a Writer I have met with, consists in Piety; Nothing certainly being so great a Debt upon us, as to render to the Creator & Preserver those Acknowledgments which are due to Him for our Being, and the hourly Protection he affords us." -- [Samuel Adams] Letter to Thomas Wells, November 22, 1780

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to whom all alone men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and with a propitious eye beholds his subjects assuming that freedom of thought, and dignity of self-direction which He bestowed on them. From the rising to the setting sun, may His kingdom come." -- [Samuel Adams] Speech at the State House, Philadelphia, August 1, 1776
 
There was a weekend conference that featured Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee. It was stated that America is awash in paganism.

There are a number of disturbing things made by both Huckabee and Gingrich.



Yep, ideas and people had nothing to do with it.:roll: How about people achieved the revolution by utilizing their natural born rights!? The innate theory of rights promulgated by Locke and other enlightenment philosophers was the only driving force to win the revolution, supernatural acts by god was in no way, a part of the equation.



Where specifically in the Constitution does it say that? Atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Unitarians, and others are not citizens!?:shock: It would do Newt well to read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

I would also disagree with the notion that we are awash in Paganism. :rofl

well, they certainly have very high opinions of themselves. what ****wads.
 
Where is this anti-christian sentiment among much of the left? I am a part of the left, and know alot of the left, and I don't know more than a couple who are hostile towards christianity. Most of the left is, in fact, christian. I really think you should prove this since it is inarguable.

I will say "Amen" to this. I am a very strong Christian and liberal.

I for one not understand this blind alliegence to the Republican party by much of the so-called Christian right, nor do I understand the stereotype that Christians are Republican. Some of the planks of the Republican doctrine are consistent with the Christian world view, some are diametrically opposed to it; the same is true with Democrats. Neither party should claim their policies are generally consistent with Christian world view. Christians, frankly, should be vocally critical of the policies and practices of both parties. When was the last time you heard a member of the Christian right criticize the morality, greed, absense of compassion or insensitivity to social injustice of the Republicans? Gingrich, of all people, should have been publicly admonished for his cavielier attitude toward the sactity of marriage (his own)
 
I strongly STRONGLY dislike Huckabee - he's a political minister . . . says the most ridiculous **** about everyone and somehow people get more worked up over Limbaugh and Beck . . . at least L and B are purely political.
 
...the ****?

I never understood statements like that. I mean, BEING a Pagan, you'd think I'd be a lot more able to see this kind of stuff....but I really dont
 
Separation is the solution for a country like the USA. In a Democracy, you supposedly defend rights and liberties from ALL your citizens, incluiding those who have different religious views.

This debate has been solved in almost every country in Europe and Latin America.

Gingrich and his friends are Christian versions of radical muslims in the Middle East. They just don't understand at all their own religions.

Christianism defends tolerance and brotherhood between all men, not only between Christians.
 
I will say "Amen" to this. I am a very strong Christian and liberal.

I for one not understand this blind alliegence to the Republican party by much of the so-called Christian right, nor do I understand the stereotype that Christians are Republican. Some of the planks of the Republican doctrine are consistent with the Christian world view, some are diametrically opposed to it; the same is true with Democrats. Neither party should claim their policies are generally consistent with Christian world view. Christians, frankly, should be vocally critical of the policies and practices of both parties. When was the last time you heard a member of the Christian right criticize the morality, greed, absense of compassion or insensitivity to social injustice of the Republicans? Gingrich, of all people, should have been publicly admonished for his cavielier attitude toward the sactity of marriage (his own)

Of course! The Republican Party creates wars in middle east that kill thousands of people and then claim they follow Jesus' teachings about love and fraternity. That is the biggest contradiction in politics ever seen! I think that both radical conservatives and radical liberals don't follow Christianism. But a moderate liberalism really coincides with many of Jesus' teachings.

I consider myself a right-wing liberal, however, I know there are many in the moderate left that are christian. For example there is a party in Chile called the "Christian Democracy" and is a combination of moderate socialism with christian doctrines. They don't accept abortion, gay rights or all that stuff, but at the same time they are in the political left.
 
Of course! The Republican Party creates wars in middle east that kill thousands of people and then claim they follow Jesus' teachings about love and fraternity. That is the biggest contradiction in politics ever seen! I think that both radical conservatives and radical liberals don't follow Christianism. But a moderate liberalism really coincides with many of Jesus' teachings.

Oh yeah, God - the Jealous God. He's 'perfect' and peaceful? without 'judgment' or 'wrath' ?

Luke 12:49 said:
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

and the Battle of Jericho - in the Bible "Christ" takes great pains to note that *he* won the war.

And then there's this gem:
Jeremiah 25:15 said:
15 This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: "Take from my hand this cup filled with the wine of my wrath and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. 16 When they drink it, they will stagger and go mad because of the sword I will send among them."

17 So I took the cup from the LORD's hand and made all the nations to whom he sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the towns of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a ruin and an object of horror and scorn and cursing, as they are today; 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, 20 and all the foreign people there; all the kings of Uz; all the kings of the Philistines (those of Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the people left at Ashdod 21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; 22 all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands across the sea; 23 Dedan, Tema, Buz and all who are in distant places [c] ; 24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the foreign people who live in the desert; 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; 26 and all the kings of the north, near and far, one after the other—all the kingdoms on the face of the earth. And after all of them, the king of Sheshach [d] will drink it too.

Yeah, he's a real forgiving, caring and peace loving leader, there. :peace
 
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Zombie thread rises from the grave....

"Brains! Brains!"

Looks around DP, then wanders off, forlornly calling "Brains?? Brains??" :lamo
 
So I'm reading the linked content from the OP and I keep saying to myself: wrong......, wrong, really wrong, and then I get to this:
Paganism – How does it compare with Christianity?
It is difficult to compare paganism with Christianity since the term pagan can be used to identify many different sects and beliefs.

I had no idea that all of my Christian brethren were Lutherans like me. I feel good all over.
 
There was a weekend conference that featured Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee. It was stated that America is awash in paganism.

There are a number of disturbing things made by both Huckabee and Gingrich.



Yep, ideas and people had nothing to do with it.:roll: How about people achieved the revolution by utilizing their natural born rights!? The innate theory of rights promulgated by Locke and other enlightenment philosophers was the only driving force to win the revolution, supernatural acts by god was in no way, a part of the equation.



Where specifically in the Constitution does it say that? Atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Unitarians, and others are not citizens!?:shock: It would do Newt well to read Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.

I would also disagree with the notion that we are awash in Paganism. :rofl

holy ****. anyone who believes that god "blesses a nation" is insane. it's the same as thanking god for a super bowl victory.
 
I'm going to light candles, incense, and do a nekkid midnight, moonlight rain dance just for Newt.
 
There was a weekend conference that featured Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee. It was stated that America is awash in paganism.

And you're disagreeing with that? Seriously?

You do understand what a pagan is, right? Socialism, antitheism, humanism are all forms of paganism and they're all fundamental elements of Leftism. The US government is presently filled to the collective gills with an insurgency of just that. The FBI arrested a dozen pagan insurgents were arrested just the other day and he current appointee for the SCOTUS is a pagan.

So it's pretty silly to argue otherwise. It's not that hard to spot. You people are everywhere.

FYI: Pagan>>>
holy ****. anyone who believes that god "blesses a nation" is insane. it's the same as thanking god for a super bowl victory.


"The notion that we are just one of many among equals is nonsense," Huckabee said. The United States is a "blessed" nation, he said, calling American revolutionaries' defeat of the British empire "a miracle from God's hand."

Yep, ideas and people had nothing to do with it. How about people achieved the revolution by utilizing their natural born rights!? The innate theory of rights promulgated by Locke and other enlightenment philosophers was the only driving force to win the revolution, supernatural acts by god was in no way, a part of the equation.


He's speaking, of course, of American Exceptionalism, which is the direct result of those 'natural born rights'. Rights which are a result of an endowment by and thus rest upon the authority of Nature's God.

That good men are compelled to drive harder and dig deeper when they know that they are acting upon the authority of the highest order and that such is a function of their DUTY to bear the responsibility of the rights which GOD GAVE TO THEM, and that they're focused, determined and fully committed, will usually produce a winning result.

So, there's good news. You're right about one thing. There was nothing super-natural about America defeating her enemy; or America becoming the most prosperous and free nation on earth and using the power which is inherent in such to provide for more freedom, to more human beings than ANY FORCE IN THE HISTORY OF THE HUMAN SPECIES. As there's no 'Super' naturl about the Creator or nature; and as a result there's nothing super-natural about the winning results of those who recognize the Father, respect and embrace the immutable principles that represent his discernible authority and focus their lives on carrying out his will, as one is lead to do.
 
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America is surrounded by Paganism?

Well, Canada, Maybe, but Mexico is still pretty solidly Catholic.
 
America is surrounded by Paganism?

No... they apparently claimed America is awash in Leftism. Not surrounded by it.

The OP misquoted their own source. But that's fairly typical of the Pagan; with evil bein' what it is, and all...
 
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America is surrounded by Paganism?

Well, Canada, Maybe, but Mexico is still pretty solidly Catholic.

Mexico is the most pagan country in Latin America and maybe in the world. Have you seen how they venerate witches, dead men and drugdealers? Their catholic fanatism is not so real because they mix it with pagan beliefs. Other countries in Latin America are much more christian.
 
Mexico is the most pagan country in Latin America and maybe in the world. Have you seen how they venerate witches, dead men and drugdealers? Their catholic fanatism is not so real because they mix it with pagan beliefs. Other countries in Latin America are much more christian.

It was just a little joke, dude.
 
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