• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Getting a job.

Kal'Stang

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,747
Reaction score
22,572
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I've noticed that there is a growing trend in America. That of not having to deal with hiring people that doesn't fit a pre-concieved stereo type.

I've noticed that at one point in history you could go to a place of business and ask for work. The potential employer would ask a few simple questions and then hire you on the spot or not hire you at all.

Then we went to applications. At first they would talk to you more than look at the application. Then they looked at the application more than they would talk to you. Then they wouldn't even look at you and just look at the application.

Now I've noticed an even disturbing trend of events. That of having a person fill out an online application leaving no way to call them about the job or to even check on what they thought of your application. Sometimes those online applications are detailed, sometimes not.

What do you think of this trend?
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I've noticed that there is a growing trend in America. That of not having to deal with hiring people that doesn't fit a pre-concieved stereo type.

I've noticed that at one point in history you could go to a place of business and ask for work. The potential employer would ask a few simple questions and then hire you on the spot or not hire you at all.

Then we went to applications. At first they would talk to you more than look at the application. Then they looked at the application more than they would talk to you. Then they wouldn't even look at you and just look at the application.

Now I've noticed an even disturbing trend of events. That of having a person fill out an online application leaving no way to call them about the job or to even check on what they thought of your application. Sometimes those online applications are detailed, sometimes not.

What do you think of this trend?
It sucks and I hate it.

I consider myself a pretty talented individual but because I don't have "official" accreditation to get jobs in higher up fields, no one will give any ap I submit a second look.
I'm basically stuck being a laborer, until I get a degree.

When I do get face time with a potential employer, I can usually talk my way into a job.
 

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
19,883
Reaction score
5,120
Location
0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
I'm pretty certain without my in office interview I wouldn't have my job. Online apps only go so far. For some jobs that's probably fine, but when corporate culture is important, there's no substitute for meeting the person and seeing how they interact.
 

tacomancer

Big Scary Liberal
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
39,749
Reaction score
20,572
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Most of the job offers I have gotten recently were not from filling out applications. They are from going the more traditional routes of networking and submitting my resume+letter.

Unfortunately, I can't get an offer of over 60k right now, so there is no point in taking those jobs.
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
49,662
Reaction score
31,485
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
an unfortunate trend caused by the efficiency of the interweb tubes

this is very pronounced in the federal sector, for entry level positions

those who are best able to embellish their qualifications on the application are the ones likely to get the announced job

the trouble is, they seldom arrive with the compliment of skills to actually perform as was expected
 

Kal'Stang

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,747
Reaction score
22,572
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
an unfortunate trend caused by the efficiency of the interweb tubes

this is very pronounced in the federal sector, for entry level positions

those who are best able to embellish their qualifications on the application are the ones likely to get the announced job

the trouble is, they seldom arrive with the compliment of skills to actually perform as was expected
So one basically has to lie...another statement of the possible morals of America now adays? :(
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Most businesses are trying to make jobs as simple as they can. If your needs are simple, rather than having two fully trained employees that you pay $20 an hour, you can afford to hire four people and only pay $8 an hour. If the tasks you need performed are simple and require minimal training, employees suddenly become disposable. You dont have to worry about paying benefits or keeping your employees happy because if they cause problems, just fire them and hire all new ones. Employees are becoming more and more like parts in a machine so anything beyond what ends up on a resume generally doesn't matter too much because the extra stuff isn't important.
 

Mach

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
20,388
Reaction score
11,954
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I think the trend is called progress.

No longer does an individual have to drive and spend the time walking in, waiting, to disucss jobs. They make a few resumes and farm them out, while in their pjs eating donuts (or less likely, solving the worlds biggest issues part-time as they send out resumes). They research your website where you have already posted a lot of information about your company. You don't need 100 people asking you where you are located. Look it up on the damned website, it's called "efficiency". I don't want to describe the position to you, it's already described in the job posting. I don't know you, I don't want to get to know you (yet?), give me your relevant info and I'll contact you. Trust me, if you do it any other way, you will spend all your time sifting sand and you'll go out of business beacuse your hiring cost and success rate will be in the trash. Customers are not paying you to hand hold potential job applicants, they want goods and services fast, cheap, and perfect quality.

Time is the only hurdle we have to cross. It saves time, it saves lives, so to speak.

People need to work hard for the things they want. If they want a career that spans 15 years and provides fulfillment and growth, they better damn well be ready to spend a lot of time working to get there, and not expect to stroll randomly into a building and say "i needs a job prz", and magically have the job fairly grant their ill thought-out wish.

The trend is also called "specialization". Someone off the street should NOT be qualified for every job. If they are, then your economy is a hundred years behind where we are right now. People need to use all the electronic networking to quickly find much more specific matches to their experience. It's a more efficient use of human energy.
 
Last edited:

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Holy crap. I love it. It has made my job hunting so much easier when I can apply for jobs all over the world with a click of a mouse button. All of the jobs I've gotten in the last 10 years (save one) have been from online sites, online applications, and/or online resume submissions. With in person interviews following the resumes, of course.

Now, when I was using Monster, Dice, and CareerBuilder to look for work, most of the ads I just submitted a resume and cover letter to the person/company. But some of them I had to go to their site and fill out a form. I did always roll my eyes at this because it was more effort. ROFL Especially when I had to do it multiple times. I mean, I had all that info in my resume, why should I have to type it all out AGAIN? It was just frustrating to have to fill out form, after form, after form, after form with the same information that I had on the website I was using to job search. I just didn't get it, is all.
 

Mach

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
20,388
Reaction score
11,954
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I mean, I had all that info in my resume, why should I have to type it all out AGAIN? It was just frustrating to have to fill out form, after form, after form, after form with the same information that I had on the website I was using to job search. I just didn't get it, is all.
By all means, please compete with them, I think they are all kind of sucky from the opposite side as well.
 

Orion

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
All my temp jobs started as online applications, then went to interviews. Companies that only look at strict qualifications are, IMO, only limiting themselves. There are some really stupid degree-holders out there. If it weren't for the interviews, I probably would have never started getting employment experience. I'm glad that I'm in a field that has a viable market and private business potential, otherwise I don't know how young people get their foot in the door these days. Most of my peers are in the catch-22: can't get hired because they have no experience; can't get experience because no one will hire them. A good friend finished an engineering degree almost 2 years ago... he can't get hired because he doesn't have 5 years engineering experience. But how is he supposed to get it? So now he works at a coffee shop. It's a travesty.

It also doesn't help that many in the baby boomer generation are deciding to retire later than expected because social security is unstable. It's creating more barriers to entry for the fresh blood, and frankly the young people could really benefit from working next to people with decades of experience.
 

rivrrat

Goddess of Bacon
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Messages
13,988
Reaction score
6,593
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
By all means, please compete with them, I think they are all kind of sucky from the opposite side as well.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'compete with them'? When I am looking to hire someone, I look at the resume they send and/or their profile on our chosen headhunter website. Why would I need them to fill out even more information? That's what I don't understand. When I have been job hunting on Monster, (or wherever), I see an ad for a job that interests me and I click to apply for the job. I send them my resume and my profile on Monster also has a ****ton of information. But still yet, some employers want you to go fill out yet ANOTHER form with all the information that's contained in the resume I have, and my profile on Monster - the job site their ad was on to begin with. I guess I just wonder why they don't use the sources that are already there instead of creating their own redundancy.
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I punched my last job interview.
I've yelled at a few job interviewers before. It's VERY prevalent among the lower-tier jobs, people seem to think if you're willing to work for minimum wage then you're just not human.
 

samsmart

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Messages
10,316
Reaction score
6,470
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
What do you think of this trend?
I think it's a good incentive for me to start my own business instead of trying to get work from a boss who sees me only as a worker bee and not the thinking, feeling human being that I really am.
 

Orion

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think it's a good incentive for me to start my own business instead of trying to get work from a boss who sees me only as a worker bee and not the thinking, feeling human being that I really am.
How dare you not just be a cog in the wheel! What do you think this is, the Hilton??
 

Prof. Peabody

Debate MMA
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 4, 2010
Messages
1,361
Reaction score
325
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I've noticed that there is a growing trend in America. That of not having to deal with hiring people that doesn't fit a pre-concieved stereo type.

I've noticed that at one point in history you could go to a place of business and ask for work. The potential employer would ask a few simple questions and then hire you on the spot or not hire you at all.

Then we went to applications. At first they would talk to you more than look at the application. Then they looked at the application more than they would talk to you. Then they wouldn't even look at you and just look at the application.

Now I've noticed an even disturbing trend of events. That of having a person fill out an online application leaving no way to call them about the job or to even check on what they thought of your application. Sometimes those online applications are detailed, sometimes not.

What do you think of this trend?
It's goes with the unemployment numbers. In the town I live in there was a PART-TIME job opening with the Water Company, they cut off the applications at 450 in less than a day. I live in Southern California where unemployment is 15.1%. Sorry, Harry until we get a far more business friendly Congress, the jobs aren't coming back and the employers don't want to hear from you unless your verified credentials precede you. I'm in the same boat. All we can do is "hope" the people see this and "change" the Congress in November.
 

Guy Incognito

DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
11,216
Reaction score
2,818
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
If I look at it from the perspective of the employer, it doesn't seem like a very good move. You can only get a limited view of a person from an online app, and it is only really possible to size a person up by face to face meeting. However, it seems like this is a good way of screening out people who don't fit the mold they are envisioning. It may leave out a few diamonds in the rough, but it must be more efficient or they wouldn't be using it. I guess it's just the market at work.


They make a few resumes and farm them out, while in their pjs eating donuts (or less likely, solving the worlds biggest issues part-time as they send out resumes).
Can't it be both?
 
Last edited:

samsmart

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 7, 2009
Messages
10,316
Reaction score
6,470
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I would also like to point out that while most jobs have online applications, probably the best way of getting a job is to network. I know that whenever I need something, I talk to all of my friends first. I'll also accept my friends' recommendations over an online application any day of the week.

So it's important to put yourself out there and make a good impression for the people you work for. Make friends, and if you're bad at making friends, then at least make contacts. Word of mouth can be a very good way of getting business or betting hired.
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
It's goes with the unemployment numbers. In the town I live in there was a PART-TIME job opening with the Water Company, they cut off the applications at 450 in less than a day. I live in Southern California where unemployment is 15.1%. Sorry, Harry until we get a far more business friendly Congress, the jobs aren't coming back and the employers don't want to hear from you unless your verified credentials precede you. I'm in the same boat. All we can do is "hope" the people see this and "change" the Congress in November.
Congress is plenty business friendly. And places like SoCal bend over backwards to be business friendly. Our employment rate sucks because our cost of living is through the roof.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Hoplite said:
And places like SoCal bend over backwards to be business friendly.
Is that why so many businesses are leaving California?
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Ok, California has the seventh largest economy IN THE WORLD. You dont get that way by being anti-business.
California did not get to be the seventh largest economy in the world by being anti-business, but in recent years, in spite of it. Calfornia is having a hard time attracting new business formation or even retaining the businesses it has.

In just the first half of this year, there have been 85 such events, much higher than what occurred through all of 2009. An “event” includes instances where companies have closed factories down, moved their headquarters or facilities to another state or country, or targeted locations elsewhere as better places to grow and therefore sent billions of dollars in capital out of state or out of the country. One relocation consultant put it this way:

Using research methods that involve public domain information only, the 85 known events for the year’s first half compare with 51 for all of last year and 43 events combined for the three-year 2006 – 2008 period.
...
It's no mystery what California’s problems are – high taxes, undue regulation, excessive fines and fees, high workers' comp costs, a legal environment stacked against businesses, and lengthy permitting requirements. Contributing factors include staff being unsympathetic or even hostile to business concerns in state agencies and the big-city governments in Los Angeles and San Francisco. Such reasons contributed to California losing more than one million jobs in recent years.
The outmigration of individuals reflects not only the business climate but until the recent recession, was influenced heavily by real estate prices. Some folks cashed out and relocated to lower priced areas, predominately Nevada and Arizona, while others were forced out by high personal tax rates, i.e., "California, which had a net outmigration of 755,000 people to other states between 1995 and 2000" according to the 2000 Census, second only to New York, which had 874,000 (largely in the New York - Florida exchange).
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
California did not get to be the seventh largest economy in the world by being anti-business, but in recent years, in spite of it. Calfornia is having a hard time attracting new business formation or even retaining the businesses it has.



The outmigration of individuals reflects not only the business climate but until the recent recession, was influenced heavily by real estate prices. Some folks cashed out and relocated to lower priced areas, predominately Nevada and Arizona, while others were forced out by high personal tax rates, i.e., "California, which had a net outmigration of 755,000 people to other states between 1995 and 2000" according to the 2000 Census, second only to New York, which had 874,000 (largely in the New York - Florida exchange).
We ARE in the middle of a recession and with such a large economy, we're going to be hit harder than other states. Job losses and business closure is to be expected.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
We ARE in the middle of a recession and with such a large economy, we're going to be hit harder than other states. Job losses and business closure is to be expected.
True. But note that the figures for outmigration were from the 2000 Census, just before or during the early days of the 2000 - 2001 recession, a recession that was much milder than the most recent recession. Hence, California's problems transcend a recession and are more reflective of the environment in which businesses and individuals find themselves.
 
Top Bottom