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Get it right, Rittenhouse was chased first and wasn’t even the first to fire a gun.

You didn't answer my question.

Someone else shot a gun somewhere else. So that makes it okay for a 17 year old to shoot someone else in the head?

Combined with being aggressively attacked by the one he shot, it might very well lead to a non guilty verdict based on a reasonable fear for life.
 
I hate when lawyers present facts that completely make sense.

I hope I don't see anyone trying to argue that any assault would justify use of deadly force because he had a gun, and someone who assaults him might take the gun to use against him.

It's been said when the shooter is a cop, but at least in this country it seems cops are required to be armed. It would be perverse to make the argument when we speak of a citizen who chooses to go out armed. (Especially here, when the kid illegally possessed the weapon and went to this thing hoping for a confrontation, playing vigilante)

Combined with being aggressively attacked by the one he shot, it might very well lead to a non guilty verdict based on a reasonable fear for life.

I post and see this guy did the exact thing I just talked about.



In MAGA world, it somehow makes sense that you can choose to illegally arm yourself, go looking for a confrontation, and then when confronted claim that any assault justifies use of deadly force because someone might take the weapon you chose to illegally bring there from you and use it against you. We don't have mind probes so you "cannot know" what other people intend, so you get to blow them way.

In MAGA world.



You guys need to stop pretending. This is about the shooter being a Trumpist and his victims being associated with people protesting the repeated brutalizing of black people at the hands of the police (and, really, anyone being brutalized by the police)
 
You want to play this game? Pretend it’s Rittenhouse that’s the protester and he’s being chased by militia members.

Rittenhouse was one of the reich-wing militia members.
 
Combined with being aggressively attacked by the one he shot, it might very well lead to a non guilty verdict based on a reasonable fear for life.

All he has to do is prove the man who he shot in the head was the one who fired the shot that happened...somewhere. Should be easy. Right?

Can you let me know at what point in this video I can see the man whose head he blew off shooting at him?

 
In the specific circumstance Rittenhouse found himself in the shooting was absolutely justified. I've been critical of this kid since the whole thing went down and I still firmly believe that he managed to get himself into a situation WAY over his head. That being said, unless he was being chased (prior to the initial shooting) due to some kind of assault or something he committed down the street then it's self-defense. That gunshot as he's being chased changes the whole dynamic and gives him a rock solid justification to fear that he was at imminent risk of death or great bodily harm.

I've said the same as you have, but what do you expect from some, who really offer nothing, and do nothing but personal attacks and fake indictments of others?

Not a Rittenhouse devotee...
 
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I hope I don't see anyone trying to argue that any assault would justify use of deadly force because he had a gun, and someone who assaults him might take the gun to use against him.

It's been said when the shooter is a cop, but at least in this country it seems cops are required to be armed. It would be perverse to make the argument when we speak of a citizen who chooses to go out armed. (Especially here, when the kid illegally possessed the weapon and went to this thing hoping for a confrontation, playing vigilante)



I post and see this guy did the exact thing I just talked about.



In MAGA world, it somehow makes sense that you can choose to illegally arm yourself, go looking for a confrontation, and then when confronted claim that any assault justifies use of deadly force because someone might take the weapon you chose to illegally bring there from you and use it against you. We don't have mind probes so you "cannot know" what other people intend, so you get to blow them way.

In MAGA world.



You guys need to stop pretending. This is about the shooter being a Trumpist and his victims being associated with people protesting the repeated brutalizing of black people at the hands of the police (and, really, anyone being brutalized by the police)

The kid was a cop wannabe apparently. Obsessed with guns and law enforcement activities. Mommy drove him there with his not-toy weapon so he could be a vigilante.

God bless America.
 
Get it right... He is underage, travelled with illegal weapons across statelines, fled the scene, fled the state and oh yea killed 2 people. He is the terrorist. And even if it somehow was self defence, he should not have been there with that weapon and the police should have arrested him when they encountered him before the shooting...instead they chatted with him and gave him water.

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Yes, there is still plenty to want the kid to fry for.
 
All he has to do is prove the man who he shot in the head was the one who fired the shot that happened...somewhere. Should be easy. Right?

Can you let me know at what point in this video I can see the man whose head he blew off shooting at him?



No, that is a complete misrepresentation of the defense’s burden.
 
Was he carrying within 1000 feet of Reuther Central High School in violation of the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act?

That means the child molestor was breaking the law.
 
All he has to do is prove the man who he shot in the head was the one who fired the shot that happened...somewhere. Should be easy. Right?

Can you let me know at what point in this video I can see the man whose head he blew off shooting at him?



Not necessrily. It just has to be s reasonable fear.

And if people are already willing to chase and charge you, despite having a rifle in your hand, it’s reasoanble to assume they might take your gun and kill you anyway. Now combine that with a gunshot, and it is understandable, a tragic mistake, but understandable. .

Pro tip, don’t charge a man with a rifle who is clearly retreating and not threatening you. It makes you look like the bad guy out for violence.
 
Get it right... He is underage, travelled with illegal weapons across statelines, fled the scene, fled the state and oh yea killed 2 people. He is the terrorist. And even if it somehow was self defence, he should not have been there with that weapon and the police should have arrested him when they encountered him before the shooting...instead they chatted with him and gave him water.


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What illegal weapon was he carrying?
 
You have got to be the dumbest about what’s relevant to a self defense claim of any lawyer, like, ever.

Personal attacks now? If you don't want to be called on your stupid bait threads, don't make them. By your own admission, the muzzle flash/gunshot was 100% irrelevant.

This is entirely true:

Hearing a gunshot does not justify you in shooting at anyone. That's lunacy. He'd have to know not only who fired the gun but that it was aimed at him or a third party he sought to defend for it to possibly justify shooting, and he could only be justified in shooting the shooter.

Hearing a gunshot while being chased does not justify you in turning around and blowing away whomever is chasing you.

Someone trying to take a gun from you after you turned into an active shooter in a crowd situation does not justify you in shooting yet more people.

You want to ignore that he decided to illegally possess a firearm, illegally cross state lines with it, illegally brandish it, all while looking for a confrontation with protesters, and that everything everyone did after the first shot was indisputably self-defense and defense of others on their part - the part of the people he shot - not his. As a general matter, if you provoke a confrontation with force or the threat of force, you lose self-defense.



Extra credit: merely being assaulted does not justify the use of deadly force. Among other things, you have to actually be facing deadly force or the threat of deadly force in order to use deadly force yourself.

Not only were you lying about self-defense, you dishonestly made sure to not quote the post that actually talked about self defense in any detail.
 
Personal attacks now? If you don't want to be called on your stupid bait threads, don't make them. By your own admission, the muzzle flash/gunshot was 100% irrelevant.

This is entirely true:



Not only were you lying about self-defense, you dishonestly made sure to not quote the post that actually talked about self defense in any detail.

Sorry, where did I ever say it was “irrelevant”?
 
The gunshot in the air does not provide that justification IMO. It might help EXPLAIN it - un untrained kid hears it and panics, but does not justify it.

What I'm more interested in is the possibility that his being 'chased by a mob' created a self-defense justification.

Justification for the use of deadly force usually involves the reasonable belief that your life or the life of another is in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. The gunshot makes the belief unquestionably reasonable and being chased makes it imminent. The kid can't reasonably know that the guy chasing him isn't armed or whether the gunshot came from someone associated with the guy chasing him. That gunshot makes the use of deadly force totally justifiable.
 
Sorry, I disagree. Hearing a gun shot somewhere isn't justification for shooting someone in the head who didn't fire at him.

Should i shoot at someone running at me just because I hear a gun shot? is that okay?

Tres, you should consider the totality of the circumstances here. A reasonable person would be entirely justified in the use of deadly force in this kid's situation. Your failure to comprehend that isn't reasonable but, as we all know, you have a political agenda to promote so being reasonable isn't on your "to do" list here. We all get that.
 
Justification for the use of deadly force usually involves the reasonable belief that your life or the life of another is in imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. The gunshot makes the belief unquestionably reasonable and being chased makes it imminent. The kid can't reasonably know that the guy chasing him isn't armed or whether the gunshot came from someone associated with the guy chasing him. That gunshot makes the use of deadly force totally justifiable.

It becomes more complicated when you are currently committing a crime.
 
You’ll never get this but the circumstances the kid was in as well as the actions of the people around him do matter. I mean, they don’t to bitter Trump haters like you but they will have to to a jury.

I hope hideous people like that are never on a jury of 12 where there is an incidence of this magnitude. She's already accused us of giving this kid a break because we are "Trump devotees" Jesus, Mary and Joseph...
 
Okay, so if i decide to put on a Biden hat, and I hear a gunshot, I can shoot someone wearing a MAGA hat who is running behind me?

You certainly can. It wouldn't be justified and you'd go to jail but, on the plus side, you would have validated your victimhood so at least you'd have that going for you.
 
You’ll never get this but the circumstances the kid was in as well as the actions of the people around him do matter. I mean, they don’t to bitter Trump haters like you but they will have to to a jury.

Was it legal for the kid to have the firearm, YES OR NO?
 
What illegal weapon was he carrying?

The weapon wasn't illegal, he was 17 and the minimum age to carry that weapon is 18.
 
Hearing a gunshot does not justify you in shooting at anyone. That's lunacy. He'd have to know not only who fired the gun but that it was aimed at him or a third party he sought to defend for it to possibly justify shooting, and he could only be justified in shooting the shooter.

Hearing a gunshot while being chased does not justify you in turning around and blowing away whomever is chasing you.

Someone trying to take a gun from you after you turned into an active shooter in a crowd situation does not justify you in shooting yet more people.

You want to ignore that he decided to illegally possess a firearm, illegally cross state lines with it, illegally brandish it, all while looking for a confrontation with protesters, and that everything everyone did after the first shot was indisputably self-defense and defense of others on their part - the part of the people he shot - not his. As a general matter, if you provoke a confrontation with force or the threat of force, you lose self-defense.



Extra credit: merely being assaulted does not justify the use of deadly force. Among other things, you have to actually be facing deadly force or the threat of deadly force in order to use deadly force yourself.





Or pre-emptive bootstrapping.

The victims were associated with the protests and we know what you've been saying about the protesters since day 1....so.... :shrug:

I've explained it more than enough. I have no expectations that you or Tres will be reasonable in this discussion so more power to you and keep on preaching to your fan bois.
 
Not necessrily. It just has to be s reasonable fear. <>

Well, it's more than that. And it's not what a Trumpist defending a Trumpist who killed some protesters calls "reasonable" on the internet for partisan reasons.

The exact language will vary by jurisdiction, but just for example in MA, standard superior court instructions say among other things:


The Commonwealth satisfies its burden of proving that the defendant did not act in proper self-defense if it proves any one of the following four [or five] propositions beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. The defendant did not actually believe that he/she was in immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm from which he/she could save him/herself only by using deadly force. Deadly force is force that is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily harm.

2. A reasonable person in the same circumstances as the defendant would not reasonably have believed that he or she was in immediate danger of death or seriosu bodily harm from which he or she could save himself or herself only by using deadly force.

3. The defendant did not use or attempt to use all proper and reasonable means under the circumstances to avoid physical combat before resorting to the use of deadly force.

4. The defendant used more force than was reasonably necessary under all the circumstances.

5. [Where there is evidence the defendant was the initial aggressor. The defendant was the first to use or threaten deadly force, and did not withdraw in good faith from the conflict and announce to the person (or persons) whom he/she provoked his/her intention to withdraw and end the confrontation without any use of or additional use of force.

Those are the shorthand versions. Judges will typically recite them, then read out longer paragraphs explaining each in more detail. I'm too lazy to type all that up. But what I did type comes straight from the Superior Court Model Instructions for courts here. I'd imagine things are largely similar over there, as they are in most places.

Note: mere words can qualifies as provocation. Screaming about how you'll cut somebody's heart out can defeat your later claim of self-defense if you provoke them into combat, for example.
 
Not necessrily. It just has to be s reasonable fear.

And if people are already willing to chase and charge you, despite having a rifle in your hand, it’s reasoanble to assume they might take your gun and kill you anyway. Now combine that with a gunshot, and it is understandable, a tragic mistake, but understandable. .

Pro tip, don’t charge a man with a rifle who is clearly retreating and not threatening you. It makes you look like the bad guy out for violence.

Pro tip, don't be illegally carrying a firearm you shouldn't be carrying. Funny how all you right-wingers ignore that.
 
Bitter Trump haters? I'm sorry we don't love Trump like you do, X.

You know this thread is a failure. Top to bottom.

Why? Because you say so... You're the one who invoked Trump's name in this thread, your usual schtick when you have nothing else to add to the topic of the thread.
 
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