Germany's soft stance on Russian aggression towards Ukraine concerns NATO allies

[anatta]

Germany wants no part of Russian/Ukraine border war. It correctly says Nordstream2 is "strictly business"
Yet the USA is making this a proxy superpower war, and dragging in Nordstream2 as some kind of weaponization <---comment

Germany's soft stance on Russian aggression toward Ukraine concerns NATO allies

Germany’s refusal to join other NATO members in providing weapons to Ukraine has caused some allies to question Berlin’s resolve to oppose Russia.

www.foxnews.com

Germany has remained relatively quiet, with at least one report from the weekend that Berlin had gone so far as to block Estonia from supplying old German howitzers to Kyiv. Ukraine criticized Germany, saying that it's stance on arms supplies does "not correspond to the level of our relations and the current security situation

Newly-elected German Chancellor Olaf Scholz responded that Germany will help with economic sanctions but will not provide "lethal weapons," leading some to question Germany's commitment to opposing Russian aggression - particularly as Germany's growing dependence on the Nord Stream pipeline could be hindering negotiations from a position of strength.
Scholz insisted that the pipeline is a "business project" – nothing more and nothing less, according to German outlet DW. But within his coalition, he faces opposition from other leaders such as Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock of the Greens, who tried to cut German reliance on Russian oil via the pipeline.

 

[noonereal]

Germany wants no part of Russian/Ukraine border war.

And why should they. It was they that pioneered marching into other countries the last 100 years.

 

[anatta]

And why should they. It was they that pioneered marching into other countries the last 100 years.

fine by me. NATO should have stayed at their border as promised and we wouldn't be in this mess

 

[Juin]

Germany wants no part of Russian/Ukraine border war. It correctly says Nordstream2 is "strictly business"
Yet the USA is making this a proxy superpower war, and dragging in Nordstream2 as some kind of weaponization <---comment

And they are correct. It has been and was always about business. Opposition to Nord Stream 2 is a mountain of lies. The lie pushed the most is that Nord Stream 2 increases European dependency on Russia; a claim that falls flat on close examination. Russia will sell the same amount of gas to Europe, the issue is over which pipeline will the gas be sent to Europe. Which is where Ukraine comes in. Ukraine's beef is that she may be cut of the gas business. It is not that Ukraine wants Germany to buy less Russian gas. Provided Ukraine is the middleman, getting a cut as transit fees, Ukraine wants Germany to buy all the gas it can get from Russia.

But of much more concern to Ukraine is to hold Russia hostage.

 

[Tangmo]

We saw this same posting with Trump, Putin's pal Flynn and so on, ie, say the same things no matter what. Never mind all arguments got shot down. Say the same ol' stuff again anyway until everyone believes you instead of the facts, the reality, the truth. Wear down the opposition with rinse and repeat repetition until we fade away.

So here's Putin in everyone's face.


Putin's not so secret weapon is heavy artillery.

Post war Grozny. Published on October 22, 2013. Two Russian military campaigns to crush Chechen separatism turned Grozny into an apocalyptic wasteland. No city in the former Soviet Union suffered so much destruction since World War II. Images of Grozny a decade ago could easily be confused with those from the Battle of Stalingrad.


Ukraine is at the top of Putin's list these dayze.

Coming soon.

 

[DarkWizard12]

BAHAHAHA! even germany knows worry over ukraine is useless! get a clue, dems! You're the only ones who want to escalate with russia.

 

[Schrott]

Lets be real. Russia has a little over 150,000 troops along a very long border with the Ukraine. That is not very much for a serious invasion, of such a large country.
If it were 500,000 or so, that would be serious.

Than lets look at the quality. Airplanes and tanks and trucks, their maintenance cycle is horrible, 2 weeks and they are broken down.
Economy, Russia can not afford a real war. It has not the industrial capacity to supply a real war.
Then Covid which is out of control in Russia, the vaccine they have is a piece of crap, Sputnik.

Its a little bit like the Soviet Union, Cold War, if they had tried, 2 weeks fuel shortage, ammo shortage and so on and so on, 4 weeks retreat with what ever that had enough fuel.
Russia would have to use its refinery capacity 100%, no civil use, to even support the troops they have right now at the border for a invasion.

Its postering

 

[Tangmo]

Famous Last Words.

 

[Schrott]

Famous Last Words.

Its reality.
During the Cold War we reacted to each fart of the Wasaw Pack. I was a a soldier at that time. I can not count how many times I was on red alert, sitting at the border. At that time we were talking millions of soldiers and 10s of thousand of tanks. We always knew that the Warsaw pact had this giant issue, with supplies, mainly fuels. We found out later, how big it was, 2 weeks.
What was our strategy, delay, fall back, extract as many casualties as possible, because we knew they would run out of supplies, because they did not have the industrial capacity.
That was the Warsaw pact.
Now it is just Russia, which is a economical and industrial f-up. Even Italy beats it, easily.
Their refineries can not cover the needs of Russia, they have to import Gasoline and Diesel, made from their own oil.
Really.
And you guys are weting your pants ??

Paper Tiger

 

[Juin]

Lets be real. Russia has a little over 150,000 troops along a very long border with the Ukraine. That is not very much for a serious invasion, of such a large country.
If it were 500,000 or so, that would be serious.

Actually the long border is a disadvantage to Ukraine. To invade the invader has to mass at a few points. The defender, unless they can figure where the center of gravity of the attack will fall, have to disperse. Or hold back their forces far from the front until the invading force shows its hand. The force Russia has there should be more than enough.

Than lets look at the quality. Airplanes and tanks and trucks, their maintenance cycle is horrible, 2 weeks and they are broken down.
Economy, Russia can not afford a real war. It has not the industrial capacity to supply a real war.
Then Covid which is out of control in Russia, the vaccine they have is a piece of crap, Sputnik.

Its a little bit like the Soviet Union, Cold War, if they had tried, 2 weeks fuel shortage, ammo shortage and so on and so on, 4 weeks retreat with what ever that had enough fuel.
Russia would have to use its refinery capacity 100%, no civil use, to even support the troops they have right now at the border for a invasion.

Its postering

I dont have the expertise to contest that.

 

[Tangmo]

Its reality.
During the Cold War we reacted to each fart of the Wasaw Pack. I was a a soldier at that time. I can not count how many times I was on red alert, sitting at the border. At that time we were talking millions of soldiers and 10s of thousand of tanks. We always knew that the Warsaw pact had this giant issue, with supplies, mainly fuels. We found out later, how big it was, 2 weeks.
What was our strategy, delay, fall back, extract as many casualties as possible, because we knew they would run out of supplies, because they did not have the industrial capacity.
That was the Warsaw pact.
Now it is just Russia, which is a economical and industrial f-up. Even Italy beats it, easily.
Their refineries can not cover the needs of Russia, they have to import Gasoline and Diesel, made from their own oil.
Really.
And you guys are weting your pants ??

Paper Tiger

Your post is incomplete.

Before I say why, you know of course NATO has the realistic estimates of how Putin's general staff figure they can support the number of troops they determined is sufficient to complete the operation, and on a specific timeline with objectives set to realize in succession and in good time. Whether Putin himself knows or doesn't yet know if he will GO or stand down, his general staff has known all along. The general staff know the responsible and logical thing which may comport to Putin's final decision or it may not comport to Putin's final call.

Which leads into your incomplete post. You'd need to present the scenario by which Putin backs down from massing more than 150,000 well equipped Russian forces all over the Ukraine border. You'd need to include how Putin will explain how his demands were met or rejected by NATO/EU negotiators. You'd need to set the table of how Putin would assert a victory while withdrawing sans the promises he seeks by NATO.

Since you appear to know it all and with certainty this should be a piece of cake for you. Even if it is nutcake.

 

[Tangmo]

Lets be real. Russia has a little over 150,000 troops along a very long border with the Ukraine. That is not very much for a serious invasion, of such a large country.
If it were 500,000 or so, that would be serious.

Than lets look at the quality. Airplanes and tanks and trucks, their maintenance cycle is horrible, 2 weeks and they are broken down.
Economy, Russia can not afford a real war. It has not the industrial capacity to supply a real war.
Then Covid which is out of control in Russia, the vaccine they have is a piece of crap, Sputnik.

Its a little bit like the Soviet Union, Cold War, if they had tried, 2 weeks fuel shortage, ammo shortage and so on and so on, 4 weeks retreat with what ever that had enough fuel.
Russia would have to use its refinery capacity 100%, no civil use, to even support the troops they have right now at the border for a invasion.

Its postering

I dont have the expertise to contest that. Actually the long border is a disadvantage to Ukraine. To invade the invader has to mass at a few points. The defender, unless they can figure where the center of gravity of the attack will fall, have to disperse. Or hold back their forces far from the front until the invading force shows its hand. The force Russia has there should be more than enough.

No one does.

No one has the expertise to make the assertions the poster makes either.

Putin's been building his armed forces since returning to the presidency in 2012. He started during his first two terms 2000-2008. That's a lot of rebuilding.

NATO is trying to make it appear too costly for Putin to do, should Putin decide he wants to GO. It is safe to say however Putin will rely on his general staff. Not only is the Russian high command of the armed forces competent and trustworthy to Putin, he'll want someone to blame if he does give the order to GO and it doesn't go favorably, ie, the operation gets dragged out in a messy conflict with no early end to it that is favorable to Putin and Russia.

Sustainment of the offensive will reach its limits, yes, yet Putin knows he doesn't have the Warsaw Pact force any more. He's been building the Russian force only.

 

[Schrott]

I do not understand what Putin's problem is. I just do not get it.
Ukraine a threat ?
NATO a threat ?
Is it the sanction over the Crimea ?
Is it the size of his appendix.

His country depends solely on the export of energy products to the Western World and China.
He starts a war 70% of that export is gone.
He is not going to risk that, because it would bankrupt Russia with in weeks.

Lets take a look at the mayor projects Russia had done since Putin.
Olympics, the most expensive ever, fraud and corruption all over the place. Shoddy construction all over the place
World Cup, same story.
The new Space Port in Sebiria, that thing is a joke. Billions spent and nothing to show for. 1 start/ launch. It was supposed to replace Baku.
Just a minor problem, they launch over water and Russia has no space capsule which can land in water. Under development for over a decade.
T80, T81, T90 they still use the same chasie as the Soviet area T70, only change is engine and transmission.
They abandoned the T64, because it is to advanced and more difficult to produce.
Rebuilding his Army, but with what ? Yesterday technology.
During Syria they had a 50% readiness status.
Tangmo you laughed your ars of, when they finished NS2 because they had to tug the pipe layer around and that largest oil and gas company of Russia could not provide modern and working equipment.

Why do you think the Russian army is different. Putin's Russia is just a 2.0 of the Soviet Russia.
The Generals, give me a break, they tell him what he wants to hear, like in the Soviet times and it turned out it was just talk. Flat out lies.

Let me ask you, why is Russia not a tech leader ? Still working and reworking Soviet time, civil and Army
Remember that fiasco with the aircraft carrier. It needed 2 tugs as support to get to the coast of Syria. It was a joke. The pride of the Russian Naval Forces.
The Flag Ship.

I think he wants to black mail the West into giving up the Crimea.
Thats it. Its a gamble which will not work.
He is loosing his marbles.

 

[Tangmo]

I do not understand what Putin's problem is. I just do not get it.
Ukraine a threat ?
NATO a threat ?
Is it the sanction over the Crimea ?
Is it the size of his appendix. He is loosing his marbles.

His country depends solely on the export of energy products to the Western World and China.
He starts a war 70% of that export is gone.
He is not going to risk that, because it would bankrupt Russia with in weeks.

Lets take a look at the mayor projects Russia had done since Putin.
Olympics, the most expensive ever, fraud and corruption all over the place. Shoddy construction all over the place
World Cup, same story.
The new Space Port in Sebiria, that thing is a joke. Billions spent and nothing to show for. 1 start/ launch. It was supposed to replace Baku.
Just a minor problem, they launch over water and Russia has no space capsule which can land in water. Under development for over a decade.
T80, T81, T90 they still use the same chasie as the Soviet area T70, only change is engine and transmission.
They abandoned the T64, because it is to advanced and more difficult to produce.
Rebuilding his Army, but with what ? Yesterday technology.
During Syria they had a 50% readiness status.
Tangmo you laughed your ars of, when they finished NS2 because they had to tug the pipe layer around and that largest oil and gas company of Russia could not provide modern and working equipment.

Why do you think the Russian army is different. Putin's Russia is just a 2.0 of the Soviet Russia.
The Generals, give me a break, they tell him what he wants to hear, like in the Soviet times and it turned out it was just talk. Flat out lies.

Let me ask you, why is Russia not a tech leader ? Still working and reworking Soviet time, civil and Army
Remember that fiasco with the aircraft carrier. It needed 2 tugs as support to get to the coast of Syria. It was a joke. The pride of the Russian Naval Forces.
The Flag Ship.

I think he wants to black mail the West into giving up the Crimea.
Thats it. Its a gamble which will not work.
He is loosing his marbles.

For all the shortcomings of Putin's armed forces they remain superior to the armed forces of Ukraine. Indeed, if you can find even some respected military analysts who doubt the Russian armed forces will not make a short work of the Ukraine armed forces you'd be accomplishing a great feat.

That said....

You still need to present the scenario by which Putin backs down from massing something like 150,000 respectably equipped Russian forces all over the Ukraine border. You'd still need to include how Putin would explain how his (mad) demands were met or rejected by NATO/EU negotiators and leaders. You'd still need to set the table of how Putin would assert a victory while withdrawing his force of 150K troops, artillery, tanks, air support and his planned naval blockade of Ukraine sans the outlandish promises he demands of NATO/EU/USA.

Meanwhile you and I are among the many affected persons in nations who agree Putin's actions and demands indicate clearly he is yet another mad Russian leader in history. Indeed, on top of all else that is Putin the Russian czarist and Soviet Marxist Leninist a score of years as dictator have gone to his head.

 

[Schrott]

Since I have no idea what this is all about, I can not tell you what would satisfy him.

Do you have any thoughts ?

 

[Tangmo]

Since I have no idea what this is all about, I can not tell you what would satisfy him.

Do you have any thoughts ?

Yes indeed, I have lots of thoughts but I'm not going to think for you.

The reason is that you asserted Putin is bluffing or hasn't any intention or resolve to invade Ukraine again. You've stated your certainty of it.

Yet you cannot say how Putin backs off while saving face, nor can you say how Putin explains domestically and internationally how his demands -- that are outlandish -- went unmet by NATO yet he was satisfied enough to call off the whole of it. You can't state or even speculate how Putin would climb down off the high horse he's on with a fully prepared invasion force poised at the Ukraine border.

So you've said only half of what you needed to say, ie, Putin climbs down. Absent is how Putin would do that and save face. In other words you can't support your assertion, so you're begging now for me to do it for you, which I won't bother with thx anyway for your vote of confidence in my analytical capabilities.

 

[Schrott]

Lets try to make sense out of it.
Russia has had now 100,000 to 150,000 troops sitting at the border.
Its winter, those guys have been sitting there for around 4 weeks.
In tents, camping.
That is real fun.
Since 4 weeks the Ukraine knows where they are, they are nicely lined up like on a parade ground.
Don't you think the Ukraine has built defensive positions. Got the track hoes out and moved dirt.
4 weeks !!
If Putin had gotten those troops together and nailed them down the heart of Ukraine, it would have made sense.

But this is a joke and nothing else.
As I pointed out, the Ukraine is not that weak, militarily, got massive supplies from the West and has quiet the advanced tanks.
Than take what we know from Syria, the readiness status, 50%.

Lets remember one thing. Modern war, is a war of resupply. It is so extreme wasteful. Just the needs, fuel, amo and so on.
Even the US, miscalculated it, during the invasion of Iraq. They had to stop for weeks, till they had the supplies back up to standarde.

US readiness status in combat is over 80%, Russia is 50% and the US had to stop for weeks in Iraq, which had been under the most strict embargos and control ever imposed since WWII

Let me turn the table.

What is it Russia wants.

Than I might be able to tell how to solve it, ot so.......

 

[Peter]

And why should they. It was they that pioneered marching into other countries the last 100 years.

This may shock you but Germany was not the first country to try invading Europe.

Europe has been at war with itself for the last few thousand years and the last century of peace is historically extremely unusual.
England and France have had so many wars it became just something they did every now and then.

 

[noonereal]

This may shock you but Germany was not the first country to try invading Europe.

Europe has been at war with itself for the last few thousand years and the last century of peace is historically extremely unusual.
England and France have had so many wars it became just something they did every now and then.

Sorry my post was too esoteric for you. I will try and dumb it down next time.

 

[Peter]

Sorry my post was too esoteric for you. I will try and dumb it down next time.

You were trying to claim Germany was somehow the pioneer of invasions which was clearly stupid.

WW1 and WW2 are long gone, Germany is a completely different country now.

 

[noonereal]

You were trying to claim Germany was somehow the pioneer of invasions which was clearly stupid.

WW1 and WW2 are long gone, Germany is a completely different country now.

If I were you I would avoid my posts and stick to the very simple posters posts.

Good luck to you and God bless.

 

[Peter]

If I were you I would avoid my posts and stick to the very simple posters posts.

Good luck to you and God bless.

Unfortunately for you, I can reply to who I like.
You seem rather angry and judgemental. Have you considered maybe not insulting people and then being upset when they respond?

 

[noonereal]

Unfortunately for you, I can reply to who I like.
You seem rather angry and judgemental. Have you considered maybe not insulting people and then being upset when they respond?

Angry? Lol
No I am merely disappointed at the intellectual deficits I see in the posts here.

As I said, God bless you.

 

[Peter]

Angry? Lol
No I am merely disappointed at the intellectual deficits I see in the posts here.

As I said, God bless you.

So, you're calling people idiots and are then surprised when people don't take that well?
That's not a winning strategy in a debate.

 

[Tangmo]

Let me turn the table.

What is it Russia wants.

Than I might be able to tell how to solve it, ot so.......
Lets try to make sense out of it.
Russia has had now 100,000 to 150,000 troops sitting at the border.
Its winter, those guys have been sitting there for around 4 weeks.
In tents, camping.
That is real fun.
Since 4 weeks the Ukraine knows where they are, they are nicely lined up like on a parade ground.
Don't you think the Ukraine has built defensive positions. Got the track hoes out and moved dirt.
4 weeks !!
If Putin had gotten those troops together and nailed them down the heart of Ukraine, it would have made sense.

But this is a joke and nothing else.
As I pointed out, the Ukraine is not that weak, militarily, got massive supplies from the West and has quiet the advanced tanks.
Than take what we know from Syria, the readiness status, 50%.

Lets remember one thing. Modern war, is a war of resupply. It is so extreme wasteful. Just the needs, fuel, amo and so on.
Even the US, miscalculated it, during the invasion of Iraq. They had to stop for weeks, till they had the supplies back up to standarde.

US readiness status in combat is over 80%, Russia is 50% and the US had to stop for weeks in Iraq, which had been under the most strict embargos and control ever imposed since WWII

Let me turn the table.

What is it Russia wants.

Than I might be able to tell how to solve it, ot so.......

Sorry but I'm not one to repeat Putin's demands against NATO which are absurd to begin with, such as his absolute requirement NATO return to its borders of 1997. So you'll just have to stop insisting I provide basic information to you about what's going on over there to instead find out for yourself.

This demand is absurd. While yes negotiators sometimes insert an obvious throw away demand to make the other side feel as if they won one, this is not what Putin is doing. Putin seems absolutely passionate about recovering the Sphere of Influence of His Beloved USSR as it was lost after the collapse of the Russian Soviet Party & State.

Indeed, Republics that were absorbed by the Russian Soviet Red Army in the closing months of WW II were elated to regain their sovereign independence and to join the EU and then enter NATO. Putin is Russian nutso to think for a moment he can get that again, and that the West would ever agree to return it to him. Stupid or insane or both is what Putin is. Yet Putin is standing by his nutso stuff.

You still and again haven't said how Putin climbs down from this as you only chase your tail saying he's bluffing.

Germans meanwhile continue to bemoan a Russian loss of life while remaining silent about Ukraine lives both military and civilian. So we're talking now about Germans being soft in the head while being hard in the heart. Which is why I say nothing fundamental has changed over there for at least a hundred years.

And now the report comes today the Russian forces have received medical units with large supplies of blood. We should expect to hear next of the 18 wheelers to cart away the corpses.