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Sounds like a good idea to me. It would be a very tough job though, just with the language issues alone!
Peace has a way of allowing people to entertain impractical things. When put to the test, their "integration" will crumble. They couldn't even come together over Bosnia and Kosovo. For Afghinstan they individually bicker over responsibility. And for Iraq they completely ran in different directions.
Who will be the Commander? A Frenchy? A German? A Turk? A former Soviet Bloc citizen? A Brit? Will they share command thereby placing nationality and culture under like commanders making them little more than what they are now? Will individual governments give up their citizens to EU laws over their own? It has nothing to do with being a "hardcore nationalist." It's about logistics and culture.
An EU military is unlikely and impractical. But it would be entertaining to see them try. Right now, they can't even individually move their troops internationally without American aid. Nor can they support themselves properly without American air support.
1. Bosnia and Kosovo has never been a member of the EU.
2. We dont have a common defense yet, so we dont have to agree on Afganistan.
3. Same as 2, yet now our voice is more united than it was before Iraq. I doubt the same would happen again, and if it did, it wouldnt matter more than it did with Iraq, where it mattered non at all, except to the US who whine over the French and the Germans not coming along in their illegal war.
4. Many commanders. Europe already have a command structure, and the command is shared just like political responsibility in the EU.
5. A future European military would probably have to swear allegiance to "western values" first and then nationality. The European military will remain two-tier, it will for a long time remain national where the nations pool their military resources in a far more effective way to MAKE UP the European military. Europe is not like the US, and you using the US as the starting point for understanding European politics and a European military is completely invalid.
6. Its a complete lie that you say European militaries cant do this and that. Its a delusion. They can, and they are doing. But the difference a united military effort will make is that the European military will be reformed to being a more multi functional force rather than a stand by defense force mostly, like most of the currently are.
No, not really, they are only free to do what member states agree on. The EU is not a state in itself like the US.
Anyways.. I mean, American perspective on this would be interesting. Would you see it as helpful, dangerous, detrimental or what exactly?
I don't think it matters one whit. An army is only useful....if you use it.
And Haiti's not a member of the U.S., yet America does what it must to safe guard it region. 75 years after World War I and 50 years after World War II Europeans had a hard time figuring out if genocide and military aggression is a bad thing in Europe? Maybe thinking more about right and wrong instead of whether or not it is supposed to be your problem would have saved some lives throughout the twentieth century on the European landscape. Would this be the reason Europe's sense of morality is so depraved?
Your common defense is America. And if you can't agree on a black and white issue like Bosnia or Afghanistan what makes you think this "common defense" will (Wasn't NATO supposed to be about a common defense?) But what is it that Europe needs to defend against anymore anyway? I doubt you are going to slaughter each other anymore. The only real future threat is civil, but your kind still refuse to acknowledge what is ahead.
Well, America's "illegal" war involved getting rid of a Western dictator
and a corrupt European UN mission and was the start of dealing with a wrecked region of terror breeding.
Europe's "illegal" wars sucked the the world in more than once and involved the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. Maybe Europeans should place a few things into perspectives instead of rushing to define America as the evil upon the earth. No one's caused or instigated more death upon this earth than Europeans.
But, calling America's activity with Iraq as "illegal" helps Europeans feel better doesn't it? Next thing you'll be calling us Nazis...oops...too late.
So...no commander, but a committee? Is this supposed to be a military or not?
European politics is represented with two World Wars, a Cold War, and a neglected Bosnia. What is being suggested from Europe is nothing more than a ceremonial entity. It's a NATO without the power across the sea (and channel).
I don't think it matters one whit. An army is only useful....if you use it. Europe is so completely pacificist I can't see them creating a useful army much less using it.
Wow. You been reading the neocon playbook Dutch? You realize an army can be very useful without ever firing a shot right? For an example I refer you to the US military during the Cold War.
You acted as the EU had some kind of responsibility to help in the Balkans, we did not. Yet, we did.
Your problem is that you cant get over the second world war.. Today is 2010 by the way. Perhaps I should start mentioning the American civil war, and how France saved America, in every discussion where it is relevant, and even more when it isnt relevant. Just to answer you people.
European common defense is not America. We have national defense first, we spend 200 billion € on national defense, between all the EU members.
What?
Perhaps its time Americans get over world war 2 already.
Or perhaps they cannot, considering its their only great and good achievement ever, the only time they did the right thing, for someone else than themselves.
Also, perhaps its time Americans learn by the second world war, rather than from it.
....it just makes us the only ones who care about international law.....
The American fetishm with elected dictators and single people in power is well known. Europe is not taking this road anymore, nobody wants a president to rule a whole country or a single commander to rule much of the armed forces.
Clearly you still live in 1950. Perhaps I could update you into 2010, would you like some education?
Good maybe when the Europissants start defending themselves we can finally bring our military personal back home.
Using it? What is wrong with you?
An army is for defense purposes, not for offensive purposes. (unless you want to join other empires like Napoleons, NAZI Germany, Imperial Japan and so fourth, whom did have armies for offensive purposes.)
I'd love to see this. Of course we would just be setting ourselves up to having to cross the Atlantic Ocean when too much American blood has to be spilt to balance it out again. We tried to stay our of WWI, but in the end had to go and make a difference. We tried to stay our of their affairs dutring WWII, but in the end had to go make a difference. We tried to stay out of Bosnia and Kosovo, but in the end had to go do what they would not on their lone. America has learned its lessons. Whether they like it or not, they will be parented until they grow up.
How would this work with NATO? Or issues of national sovereignty and security? I know the EU has conducted military exercises but I don't see this happening, or if it does it won't form a military of any great significance. It'll probably be formed primarily for the purposes of international peacekeeping, which would be redundant with other international militaries. So again, I don't see this happening.
I could see greater cooperation between EU members national militaries.
You guys didn't do practically anything in WW1, you showed up at the very end. The Canadian Corps made more of a difference in WW1 than the Americans.
Perhaps you should read up on Belleau Wood and Chateau-Thierry. It was the Marine Corps and some American soldiers that finally stopped Ludendorf's advance to Paris and finally turned the war around. It was here where Ludendorf had to halt and re-direct his focus. For two days, German soldiers were being picked off and denied advance. It took them two days before they found the body of a dead American to realize that American Marines were fighting in this location and papers throughout Europe (to include Germany) recognized it. And it was at this point in the war where the allies finally pushed back to win.
After years of stalemate even Ludendorf knew that he had to push before the Americans got involved to tip the balance. He was right. Canadians were just like the rest. They were beaten down and advancing backwards before Americans showed up.
This 27 day battle was of such significance that it is memorialized to this day in France. Had we not showed up, Europe was facing a Vicky, Normany situation (like World War II). So whatever everyone's input, this cannot be denied unless you are unaware of the event.
But we didn't have to show up at all. Like World War II, Europe's civil war was Europe's business. We've had business deals with dictators and brutes before without having to go to war with them or agreeing to their behaviors. Germany would have been no different and it would have saved American lives.
I think you're overstating America's role in Europe's affairs. America did not single handily win WW1 or WW2 or "clean up" the Yugoslavian wars follow that country's break up.
I'm going to make another topic in the warfare forum to discuss this, since this top was originally about an EU Army.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckrk1iqYdfM&feature=PlayList&p=D7920FA36506CE68&index=5"]YouTube- WW II Video, Nazi National Anthem[/ame]Hide the Jews.
I'll grant that American participation was more important than I had thought. However, as Wiseone said, you never single handedly won either of the world wars (despite all the bravado chest thumping you give yourselves), and even if the Spring Offensive had succeeded, it's doubtful that Germany would have been able to hang on to all of that territory for long.
I'm going to make another topic in the warfare forum to discuss this, since this top was originally about an EU Army.
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