Germany rejects multi billion $ Helicopter deal with Boeing and Lockheed

[uptower]

Today it was announced that both are out of the game. Analysts say this is a political decision, not a strategic one, since there is no replacement.

I can't read the article of course, but is it perhaps not an economic decision? Every govt has to pinch pennies and new helos are expensive...

 

[Rostocker]

I can't read the article of course, but is it perhaps not an economic decision? Every govt has to pinch pennies and new helos are expensive...

It is no economic decission.

Germany canceleld basicly all US deals in the last two years. From F-35, to airdefense projects. We even have a new law that bans german defense companies to use american parts.

The helicopter deal has reached the critical phase, just as 3 american senators wrote a letter to the german town of Sassnitz, threatening the town with economic destruction, because the pipeline.

The government here spends hundreds of billions for evrything, the helicopter deal has a value of only 6 billion. Thats half the money they spend for a new train track here.

You dont buy from someone who insults, threatens you.

Vice chancellor Scholz few weeks ago said it quite openly, that no deals will be made with Trumpistan.

All in all this decission will cost tax payers more, since the old helicopters need to be refurbished. That alone shows its not a economic decission.

They spend now 4 billion to refurbish the old ones and most likely we will develop a heavy lift heli ourself, which will cost many billions as well. So all in all this costs Germany in the end 9 to 10 billion.

 

[Tangmo]

See, german leaders dont have the time to study in a 3rd world country where morons like Reagan or Trump become president. German leaders like Helmut Schmidt, Gerhard Schröder, Helmut Kohl or Angela Merkel have to run one of the most powerful economies in the world, manage the heart of Europe and do the best for their people.

You should be glad though, the last german leader who studied in a foreign nation, learned their ways was Arminius, who was a german boy, brought as hostage to Rome, got a formal education there, was trained in their military....and then used his knowledge to crush the roman army, stop forever roman invasion attempts against Germany, killed 3 roman legions and ultimatly led the downfall of Rome.

You arent Rome though, just some pathetic shithole.

Provoked much are we?


Yep, an independently rearmed Germany is exactly what Europe is cheering for.

Not.

Your Germany is cranking it up again Rostocker. Germans are unilaterally rearming Germany. You are severing all the post war restraints against it.

The more you move away from the United States in economic relations and ties, and the more you move away from the USA in military production and by your unilateral rearmament program, the more you move away from Europe too. Your heart of Europe Germany has already had two cardiac arrests on this score. Big ones.

You're either oblivious to it or blatantly defiant against European integration and being oriented to the West, ie, to include the USA. Your Germany is systematically excluding the United States from it. Merkel from the east of Germany is the leader of this abomination.

Besides your Germans being defiant of European unity, your Germans are demonstrating that you are both vengeful and cold blooded about it. Europe and the USA have been down this road before Rostocker which is why your scenery is both familiar and ugly.

 

[Rostocker]

Provoked much are we?


Yep, an independently rearmed Germany is exactly what Europe is cheering for.

Not.

Your Germany is cranking it up again Rostocker. Germans are unilaterally rearming Germany. You are severing all the post war restraints against it.

The more you move away from the United States in economic relations and ties, and the more you move away from the USA in military production and by your unilateral rearmament program, the more you move away from Europe too. Your heart of Europe Germany has already had two cardiac arrests on this score. Big ones.

You're either oblivious to it or blatantly defiant against European integration and being oriented to the West, ie, to include the USA. Your Germany is systematically excluding the United States from it. Merkel from the east of Germany is the leader of this abomination.

Besides your Germans being defiant of European unity, your Germans are demonstrating that you are both vengeful and cold blooded about it. Europe and the USA have been down this road before Rostocker which is why your scenery is both familiar and ugly.

Lame insults. The driving Factor to Push USA away is France.

USA is not a trustworthy ally, its that easy.

Calling us ugly doesnt help you either

 

[Tangmo]

Lame insults. The driving Factor to Push USA away is France.

USA is not a trustworthy ally, its that easy.

Calling us ugly doesnt help you either

Germans are rearming Germany unilaterally. You are systematically excluding the USA from Germany. You are removing all the post war restraints against this.

The driving factor is for Germany to dominate Europe and to lord over it while having a newly independent and muscular military force at the ready.

Germany under Merkel is cozying up to Putin, Russia, China, Iran, in economics, strategic energy policies and, increasingly, military strength and purpose.

 

[Rostocker]

Germans are rearming Germany unilaterally. You are systematically excluding the USA from Germany. You are removing all the post war restraints against this.

The driving factor is for Germany to dominate Europe and to lord over it while having a newly independent and muscular military force at the ready.

Germany under Merkel is cozying up to Putin, Russia, China, Iran, in economics, strategic energy policies and, increasingly, military strength and purpose.

Wrong, The USA excluded itself. It was USA that broke the alliance.

You dont expect us to buy from someone who constantly insults us.

Also funny you ignore that its France that is the most prominent supporter of pushing USA out of Europe.

Times changed comrade. US influence in the world shrinks. Accept the new realities.

 

[dave8383]

I admit...thats wow...

Germany wants to buy several dozns of heavy transport helicopter to replace the old CH-53G .

60 helicopters have to be replaced and its the largest Helicopter deal on the market right now. The only companies who can sell
helicopters of this type are Boeing and Lockheed. For both companies this deal was very important and at least one of them
expected to get the contract.

Today it was announced that both are out of the game. Analysts say this is a political decission, not a strategic one, since there is no replacement.

Both Lockheed and Boeing offered participation of many german companies in this project, in the end it did not change the fact, that because the
bad german - american relations, Merkel is not willing to give any contracts into the US.

Insiders say, that Germany demands from both companies that the helicopter gets "germanized", which means it is supposed to be build in Germany, from german
corporations under Airbus.

Bundeswehr: Der geplatzte US-Helikopterdeal lässt tief blicken - WELT

Einer der größten bundesdeutschen Rüstungsdeals ist geplatzt. Das Verteidigungsministerium hat zwei großen US-Firmen beim Ersatz des altgedienten Transporthubschrauber CH-53G vorerst einen Korb gegeben. Der Schritt lässt einen strategischen Rückzieher vermuten.

www.welt.de

@Tangmo @Dayton3

A little more of your nationalism I see. Germany first.

 

[Rostocker]

A little more of your nationalism I see. Germany first.

0

well i expect my government to be Germany first, thats what they were elected for.

I guess you have no problem with america first, so i assume you understand Germany first or France first as well.

 

[dave8383]

0

well i expect my government to be Germany first, thats what they were elected for.

I guess you have no problem with america first, so i assume you understand Germany first or France first as well.

I'm about the world first but Sieg Heil to you.

 

[Rostocker]

I'm about the world first but Sieg Heil to you.

Thank you. Heil dir im Siegesglanz.

 

[Tangmo]

Wrong, The USA excluded itself. It was USA that broke the alliance.

You dont expect us to buy from someone who constantly insults us.

Also funny you ignore that its France that is the most prominent supporter of pushing USA out of Europe.

Times changed comrade. US influence in the world shrinks. Accept the new realities.

Germans always have someone to blame other than themselves.

This time around it's the USA, France with whom you do not disagree, Poland, Ukraine, Baltic States to include eastern European states such as Romania and so on.

Germans are always angry about something and identifying the cause of their anger as their neighbors. Some Germans are forever pacing the floor nights making up lists of enemies, opponents, inferiors and so on.

In this first quarter of the 21st century the world has become multipolar which fact and reality the USA hasn't any difficulty with or objection to. What the USA doesn't ever allow is for a "strategic competitor" to become equal to the USA. While Germany can't ever rise to that level or status, Germany being Germany is always a menace against peace, stability, the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, in Europe especially.

Anyone who expects France to accept or to encourage Germany in its current drive to unilaterally rearm independently would be dead wrong. As I'd said, Germany in its unilateral and independent rearming of itself is moving itself away from Europe, not toward it or more deeply into it. You're blind to a great many negative consequences of the German attitude of supremacy over other ethnicity, nationality and so on which does make Germany dangerous -- as usual I'm afraid. Europeans know this better than anyone does.

 

[Drawdown]

Thats the way to get out of it. Germany runs on a 60 billion budget surplus.

Internal they say its a snub because USA behavior. You dont spend your money in a shop where you get insulted.

The last cancellation showed that as well. The F-35 was cancelled and then someone more expensive was brought on the road.

Merkel is hellbend to not give a single cent to the US.

As foreign minister Maas said, this will also not change after Trump. Trump showed that USA is not trustworthy and it must be important to dont depend on them.

The helicopter cancellation is interesting though, because no other hevy lift option exists and some believed Merkel might jump over her shadow for practical reasons.

That she chose to rather not buy any helicopters raises eyebrows as the articles headline says itself.

Then do without it (and Germany's last surplus was $15B not that they will have one this year)

 

[Rostocker]

Germans always have someone to blame other than themselves.

This time around it's the USA, France with whom you do not disagree, Poland, Ukraine, Baltic States to include eastern European states such as Romania and so on.

Germans are always angry about something and identifying the cause of their anger as their neighbors. Some Germans are forever pacing the floor nights making up lists of enemies, opponents, inferiors and so on.

In this first quarter of the 21st century the world has become multipolar which fact and reality the USA hasn't any difficulty with or objection to. What the USA doesn't ever allow is for a "strategic competitor" to become equal to the USA. While Germany can't ever rise to that level or status, Germany being Germany is always a menace against peace, stability, the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, in Europe especially.

Anyone who expects France to accept or to encourage Germany in its current drive to unilaterally rearm independently would be dead wrong. As I'd said, Germany in its unilateral and independent rearming of itself is moving itself away from Europe, not toward it or more deeply into it. You're blind to a great many negative consequences of the German attitude of supremacy over other ethnicity, nationality and so on which does make Germany dangerous -- as usual I'm afraid. Europeans know this better than anyone does.

And all this rant because we dont want spend money into a hostile country.

 

[Tangmo]

And all this rant because we dont want spend money into a hostile country.

Germany is openly and systematically rearming independently while consciously separating itself from the United States. You are going full on with the fact Putin built Trump to destroy the alliances the USA has with major nations, such as Germany. Merkel has been leading this campaign with the support of Merkel's coalition partner the SPD that is notoriously Russia oriented.

USA foreign policy elites and national security officers are not at all hostile towards Germany. Neither are the political leaders of any political party in the USA hostile toward Germany. Their problem is Trump, not Germany and this challenge will be corrected in this election cycle in one Constitutional way or another. Biden hasn't any axe to grind about Germany either.

Yet it makes no difference who the Potus is because Germany is rearming unilaterally and systematically to dominate and lord over Europe no matter who sits in the White House. If you thought USA would be your friend in this you would not be actively separating Germany from the USA.

So Germany is separating itself from the USA while you believe Putin is your friend who will allow you to dominate Europe for free and to lord over it without owing anything to Russia. It thus becomes conclusive at this point Germans can't think straight under any circumstance and regardless of time. That is, you continue to believe Germany is superior and entitled to dominate.

 

[Rostocker]

Germany is openly and systematically rearming independently while consciously separating itself from the United States. You are going full on with the fact Putin built Trump to destroy the alliances the USA has with major nations, such as Germany. Merkel has been leading this campaign with the support of Merkel's coalition partner the SPD that is notoriously Russia oriented.

USA foreign policy elites and national security officers are not at all hostile towards Germany. Neither are the political leaders of any political party in the USA hostile toward Germany. Their problem is Trump, not Germany and this challenge will be corrected in this election cycle in one Constitutional way or another. Biden hasn't any axe to grind about Germany either.

Yet it makes no difference who the Potus is because Germany is rearming unilaterally and systematically to dominate and lord over Europe no matter who sits in the White House. If you thought USA would be your friend in this you would not be actively separating Germany from the USA.

So Germany is separating itself from the USA while you believe Putin is your friend who will allow you to dominate Europe for free and to lord over it without owing anything to Russia. It thus becomes conclusive at this point Germans can't think straight under any circumstance and regardless of time. That is, you continue to believe Germany is superior and entitled to dominate.

Nope, we just dont spend our money on a hostile country.

Its that easy.

10 Points:

1. USA made no "no spy" agreement with us
2. Trump repeatedly insulted Germany in Public, called us "delinquent" and worse
3. Trump put a 10% tariff on german steel
4. Trump put tariffs on german civilian aircrafts to pamper Boeing
5. Trump send a moron as ambassador to Berlin who acted like a colonial officer, trying to bellow orders to us
6. Trump threatens economic war on us
7. USA threatened a german town with destruction, because NS II, used blackmail and openly insulted us
8. US Secretary Pompeo insulted Germany as delinquent
9. Trump in an Interview called Germany a "foe"
10. Trump activly tried to stop Iraq to make a contract with Germany to build a electricity grid there.


And you believe after all that, we walk to you and sign a 6 billion € contract for Helicopters?

You must somehow believe we are retarded. I have news for you. We are a democracy. Our leaders have to answer the people. And there would be no answer why we allow USA to treat us like that all the while we sign multi billion $ contracts with them.

At the current situation any business deals with USA are completed impossible.

It will be up to Biden to start an apology tour, restore whats left of the alliance and then we will see what kind of deals are possible.

 

[bluesmoke]

I must admit, thats the highest escalation so far. Since Trump is president and decided to insult Germany whenever he can, Merkel blocked contracts with American companies. F-35 got cancelled, Lockheed Rocket defense system - cancelled. New laws that ban german defense companies to even use american parts.

But in all those cases existed german or european alternatives. In this case no Alternative exists, but Merkel rather dismisses both American offers and lives with no replacement any time soon, than giving Trump a contract. I guess that is Trumps "the art of the deal"

Of course, I was being facetious. In reality, it was Trump's dealing with Germany that was "Art of the Deal" style that got Trump so many bankruptcies. Germany's response was more a measured one than a Trumpian one. Art of the Deal results have been bankruptcies. And results like that with Germany.

 

[Rostocker]

Of course, I was being facetious. In reality, it was Trump's dealing with Germany that was "Art of the Deal" style that got Trump so many bankruptcies. Germany's response was more a measured one than a Trumpian one. Art of the Deal results have been bankruptcies. And results like that with Germany.

I wonder if Trump reflects on all those cancellations.

 

[Tangmo]

Nope, we just dont spend our money on a hostile country.

Its that easy.

10 Points:

1. USA made no "no spy" agreement with us
2. Trump repeatedly insulted Germany in Public, called us "delinquent" and worse
3. Trump put a 10% tariff on german steel
4. Trump put tariffs on german civilian aircrafts to pamper Boeing
5. Trump send a moron as ambassador to Berlin who acted like a colonial officer, trying to bellow orders to us
6. Trump threatens economic war on us
7. USA threatened a german town with destruction, because NS II, used blackmail and openly insulted us
8. US Secretary Pompeo insulted Germany as delinquent
9. Trump in an Interview called Germany a "foe"
10. Trump activly tried to stop Iraq to make a contract with Germany to build a electricity grid there.


And you believe after all that, we walk to you and sign a 6 billion € contract for Helicopters?

You must somehow believe we are retarded. I have news for you. We are a democracy. Our leaders have to answer the people. And there would be no answer why we allow USA to treat us like that all the while we sign multi billion $ contracts with them.

At the current situation any business deals with USA are completed impossible.

It will be up to Biden to start an apology tour, restore whats left of the alliance and then we will see what kind of deals are possible.

Alas there's the 'make a list' of grievances mentality right here before our eyes.

Unfortunately, after several sleepless nights of you guys pacing the floor you haven't come up with much, if anything. At one point all your submarines were in port for repairs that weren't happening. Your Air Force is a chair force as nothing flies while the Leopard tank still has to operate on fumes.

And let's look at your #1 on your latest Insomniac's List, spying. Moscow too got caught listening in on Merkel's phone calls. Moscow is conclusively the culprit in a huge hackjob of the German parliament while Moscow assassinated a dissident Russian who was sitting in a public park in Berlin while you guys continue your Chamberlain mantra that it's better to talk with Moscow than to ignore 'em or to cuss 'em each time Moscow deserves it.

Fear not however about this and the rest of your insomniac's incessant lists cause a Potus Biden will put some salve on your hurt places, sensitive as you folk are over there to any critique or criticism -- intolerant actually. And indignant.

Post cold war Germany going its own way incrementally hasn't ever been much of a problem to Europe and the USA or just not a problem period because Germany remained a solid member of Nato and defense partner of the United States. This is not true any more as Germany's policy is to weasel on defense preparedness and issues and to disattach itself from the United States. This is the greater issue because Germany is acting in these ways no matter who the Potus is.

So no matter how you slice off your lists, slice by slice they're still baloney.

 

[joko104]

We arent broke, we simply dont want give business to an enemy.

See, we agree. Germany is an enemy. Therefore, our military occupation of Germany should continue.

 

[Rostocker]

See, we agree. Germany is an enemy. Therefore, our military occupation of Germany should continue.

There is no occupation, or are you occupied because german soldiers are stationed in Arizona?

Beside that what kind of occupation is it when a german state can denie you entry? USA planend to build a military hospital in my state Thüringen and the Ministerpräsident (similar to a governor in USA) banned it, stating she rather openes a pig farm there. Kinda lame occupation.

 

[Rostocker]

Alas there's the 'make a list' of grievances mentality right here before our eyes.

Unfortunately, after several sleepless nights of you guys pacing the floor you haven't come up with much, if anything. At one point all your submarines were in port for repairs that weren't happening. Your Air Force is a chair force as nothing flies while the Leopard tank still has to operate on fumes.

And let's look at your #1 on your latest Insomniac's List, spying. Moscow too got caught listening in on Merkel's phone calls. Moscow is conclusively the culprit in a huge hackjob of the German parliament while Moscow assassinated a dissident Russian who was sitting in a public park in Berlin while you guys continue your Chamberlain mantra that it's better to talk with Moscow than to ignore 'em or to cuss 'em each time Moscow deserves it.

Fear not however about this and the rest of your insomniac's incessant lists cause a Potus Biden will put some salve on your hurt places, sensitive as you folk are over there to any critique or criticism -- intolerant actually. And indignant.

Post cold war Germany going its own way incrementally hasn't ever been much of a problem to Europe and the USA or just not a problem period because Germany remained a solid member of Nato and defense partner of the United States. This is not true any more as Germany's policy is to weasel on defense preparedness and issues and to disattach itself from the United States. This is the greater issue because Germany is acting in these ways no matter who the Potus is.

So no matter how you slice off your lists, slice by slice they're still baloney.

The guy assassinated in Berlin was a chechen muslim terrorist. The question is, what allowed this subject to be here. He should have been liquidated years ago.

And no, we simply dont buy stuff from a country that behaves like USA does. Its called self respect.

 

[joko104]

There is no occupation, or are you occupied because german soldiers are stationed in Arizona?

Beside that what kind of occupation is it when a german state can denie you entry? USA planend to build a military hospital in my state Thüringen and the Ministerpräsident (similar to a governor in USA) banned it, stating she rather openes a pig farm there. Kinda lame occupation.

Learn Russian.

 

[Juks]

Well, I don't know about helicopters, but Germany should buy Gripen instead of F35 from their fellow EU member.

Fighter Systems | Air | Saab

Fighting in modern conflict requires being, persistent and constantly one step ahead of potential threats and opponents. Rapid technological progress has driven the development of longer reach weapons and radars with greater precision, low signature targets and advanced electronic warfare.

www.saab.com

 

[Rostocker]

Learn Russian.

Why should i learn russian?

The enemy is USA and China, not Russia.

 

[Rostocker]

Well, I don't know about helicopters, but Germany should buy Gripen instead of F35 from their fellow EU member.

Fighter Systems | Air | Saab

Fighting in modern conflict requires being, persistent and constantly one step ahead of potential threats and opponents. Rapid technological progress has driven the development of longer reach weapons and radars with greater precision, low signature targets and advanced electronic warfare.

www.saab.com

Gripen is a nice aircraft but they want develop a german french model here.