Germany officially elected Queen Angela I in a landslide-- FDP and anti-Euros out

[Artevelde]

Yeah, ignoring (or should I say stealing) 15.8% of the votes, because they didn't pass 5% is so much better. :roll: The epiphany of democracy!

OK, let's imagine there was no entry barrier. Wouldn't it be easier for Merkel to form a coalition?

No, since in that case she would probably end up with multiple coalition partners and a very unstable government.

 

[Artevelde]

I wouldn't say Merkel is the winner at all. In fact the left got more representatives than the right and they increased their share from the last election.

What is the point of increasing your share of votes if it is at expense of your closest partners.

You're wrong. The left did not increase it's share of the vote. The SPD won far fewer votes than the Communists and the Greens lost.

 

[Artevelde]

I guess the SPD made the 'no deal with Die Linke' statement because they see that group as their natural rival for the centre-left heartland votes. It seems stupid to me that any of the leftish parties would ensure Merkel a governing majority when they could take power themselves in a grand coalition of the left. Perhaps they see it as a less risky option to support the right than have to form a broad-based, centre-left platform themselves. Whoever goes into coalition with Merkel will see themselves lose ground to their other leftist rivals because they will emphatically NOT be running any part of the show.

It would be political suicide for the SPD in the Western part of Germany to form a coalition with the Communists and supporters of DDR-repression.

 

[Camlon]

You're wrong. The left did not increase it's share of the vote. The SPD won far fewer votes than the Communists and the Greens lost.

Well, I didn't say share of the votes. I said share, meaning share of the representatives.

2009: 332 representatives
2013: 311 representatives

 

[Artevelde]

Well, I didn't say share of the votes. I said share, meaning share of the representatives.

2009: 332 representatives
2013: 311 representatives

Read your own post and then you will see that you did write about them increasing their share of the votes.

 

[Camlon]

Read your own post and then you will see that you did write about them increasing their share of the votes.

I actually said both. But I agree it might look a little confusing, but my point is.

There is no point in increasing your share of the representatives if it just comes at the expense of your partners.

 

[Artevelde]

I actually said both. But I agree it might look a little confusing, but my point is.

There is no point in increasing your share of the representatives if it just comes at the expense of your partners.

You do realize that the number of members of Parliament isn't fixed?

 

[Camlon]

You do realize that the number of members of Parliament isn't fixed?

The number of members in parliament has increased so that just makes it worse. I can use share if you want to

2009: 53.4%
2013: 49.4%

I would not describe that as a success for the right.

 

[Andalublue]

It would be political suicide for the SPD in the Western part of Germany to form a coalition with the Communists and supporters of DDR-repression.

You are wrong about Die Linke. They are in no way supporters of the DDR repression, indeed they are the only party that took a stand when the Stasi commissioner was invited to celebrate the anniversary of reunification in Saxony. The centre-left and right-wingers were happy to share a platform with the operative of DDR repression.

 

[Artevelde]

The number of members in parliament has increased so that just makes it worse. I can use share if you want to

2009: 53.4%
2013: 49.4%

I would not describe that as a success for the right.

The CDU/CSU came pretty close to gaining an absolute majority, something they haven't achieved in decades, while the SPD scored one of its worst results ever and both the Communists and the Greens lost votes.

 

[Artevelde]

You are wrong about Die Linke. They are in no way supporters of the DDR repression, indeed they are the only party that took a stand when the Stasi commissioner was invited to celebrate the anniversary of reunification in Saxony. The centre-left and right-wingers were happy to share a platform with the operative of DDR repression.

No, I'm not wrong. Die Linke is the anti-democratic Left.

 

[Camlon]

The CDU/CSU came pretty close to gaining an absolute majority, something they haven't achieved in decades, while the SPD scored one of its worst results ever and both the Communists and the Greens lost votes.

That's true, but it was at expense of their partners. As long as the right cannot form a government, then I will not describe it as a victory.

 

[Andalublue]

No, I'm not wrong. Die Linke is the anti-democratic Left.

Well, while I disagree with this point, that's not what I said you were wrong about. You said they were supporters of DDR repression and I proved the opposite. You were wrong, but moved the goalposts so that you didn't have to admit it.

 

[Artevelde]

That's true, but it was at expense of their partners. As long as the right cannot form a government, then I will not describe it as a victory.

Apparently you feel only an absolute majority would be a victory.

 

[Artevelde]

Well, while I disagree with this point, that's not what I said you were wrong about. You said they were supporters of DDR repression and I proved the opposite. You were wrong, but moved the goalposts so that you didn't have to admit it.

Die Linke describe the DDR as a legitimate effort to build a Socialist state and claim that it is not just the past, but also the future.

 

[brothern]

Whoever invented this 5% barrier is a MF. I don't think it's democratic at all. Why shouldn't minorities have a say, hm?

... the extreme political fragmentation and polarization that occurred during the Weimar Republic that lead to the social and economic choas that was taken advantage of by the Nazis during their rise to power in German politics. A lot Germans aren't going to be that blunt about the reason the rule exists, haha.

 

[Camlon]

Apparently you feel only an absolute majority would be a victory.

Yes, I do expect majority for the right before I would declare it a victory. But it doesn't have to be a majority of one party. If FDP got 0.2% more, then they the right would have won.

 

[brothern]

I like Merkel. I think she's a rather pragmatic figure, not overly bombastic or divisive. I know some sardonically yawn loudly at her political style, but it's something you wish would be more prevalent in respect to all the ridiculous self-created political crises that we have in America.

I'd probably be a FDP voter, so I find it disappointing that they were unable to keep their act together.

 

[PeteEU]

I'd probably be a FDP voter, so I find it disappointing that they were unable to keep their act together.

Actually many similar parties across Europe "fail to keep their act together" because many see them as in the pockets of the banks and big business, which is not exactly popular. Those types of parties either distance them big time from their traditional backers, or they die.

 

[German guy]

I guess the SPD made the 'no deal with Die Linke' statement because they see that group as their natural rival for the centre-left heartland votes. It seems stupid to me that any of the leftish parties would ensure Merkel a governing majority when they could take power themselves in a grand coalition of the left. Perhaps they see it as a less risky option to support the right than have to form a broad-based, centre-left platform themselves. Whoever goes into coalition with Merkel will see themselves lose ground to their other leftist rivals because they will emphatically NOT be running any part of the show.

Yes, the SPD is between a rock and a hard place: Pressured from the center by Merkel's CDU/CSU that has moved leftwards, and from the left by the Left Party.

The main reason for denying a cooperation with the Left Party on federal level (on state level, there were/are a few coalitions) is because of the Left Party's past: They are the successor of the former East German communist state party SED, responsible for dictatorship and Berlin Wall. Especially the voters in the West would not easily forgive it if the SPD cooperated with them.

Other reasons are some outlandish demands by the Left Party when it comes to foreign policy: Dismantling NATO, no German troops outside of German borders even when it's a UN mission, rather no EU at all than no socially united EU. Then, the Left Party is considered not very reliable, because there are serious infights between their pragmatic East Germans on one side, and the "Tea Party on the left" that's the West German Left Party, where all kinds of heterogenous left-wing extremists make that party (from hardcore unionists over radical pacifists to dogmatic Marxist and even Maoist ideologues).

But I think the SPD knows well that this is a strategically most unsatisfying situation, and will probably try to open up towards the Left Party this term. I doubt they'll do that again next election.

 

[German guy]

You are wrong about Die Linke. They are in no way supporters of the DDR repression, indeed they are the only party that took a stand when the Stasi commissioner was invited to celebrate the anniversary of reunification in Saxony. The centre-left and right-wingers were happy to share a platform with the operative of DDR repression.

Well, legally, the Left Party is the successor of the communist state party SED. In 1989/1990, the SED reformed after the Fall of the Berlin Wall, the reformers (the "German Gorbachevs") took power and threw some of the hardline commies out. In the first free elections, this renamed SED under the label PDS ("Party of Democratic Socialism") ran on a platform against German Reunification under the given circumstances (and won some 11% of the votes).

In 2005, the PDS eventually merged with left-wing protest movements and a split-off from the SPD ("WASG") forming the Left Party. Of today's Left Party, 70% of their members have joined past 1990, but 30% of their members had been members of the SED before 1989 already.

And yes, they often appeal to the "nostalgic" East German voter segment that has not really embraced the new system. At least rhetorically.

 

[Andalublue]

Well, legally, the Left Party is the successor of the communist state party SED. In 1989/1990, the SED reformed after the Fall of the Berlin Wall, the reformers (the "German Gorbachevs") took power and threw some of the hardline commies out. In the first free elections, this renamed SED under the label PDS ("Party of Democratic Socialism") ran on a platform against German Reunification under the given circumstances (and won some 11% of the votes).

In 2005, the PDS eventually merged with left-wing protest movements and a split-off from the SPD ("WASG") forming the Left Party. Of today's Left Party, 70% of their members have joined past 1990, but 30% of their members had been members of the SED before 1989 already.

And yes, they often appeal to the "nostalgic" East German voter segment that has not really embraced the new system. At least rhetorically.

I was aware of that history, but I know a couple of Linke activists in Berlin and they do not hanker after a return of the DDR. What they do say is that not everything before reunification was terrible. There were some aspects of life in the East that were actually positive and progressive. No system is 100% evil or 100% good, despite what some of our dualistic thinkers might say. Die Linke is a modern party and seems pretty forward-looking to me, and clearly to about 3.5 million Germans.

 

[German guy]

I was aware of that history, but I know a couple of Linke activists in Berlin and they do not hanker after a return of the DDR. What they do say is that not everything before reunification was terrible. There were some aspects of life in the East that were actually positive and progressive. No system is 100% evil or 100% good, despite what some of our dualistic thinkers might say. Die Linke is a modern party and seems pretty forward-looking to me, and clearly to about 3.5 million Germans.

Yeah, I had to defend the Linke against Artevelde before, although I am really not a fan of that party. But I'd agree that they are generally a democratic party.

But then, based on some experience and research I did for a college paper, the Linke members are extremely heterogenous. There *are* radical anti-democratic communists in the East, remainders of the SED (though most of them beyond 70 years). And those in the West are basically a "Tea Party on the left", with a good number of nuts. Not few in the West are orthodox communist sectarians, who once were students in 1968, were 100% right then and have never been wrong ever since. People who ran around in the 70s joining Trotzkist or Maoist or all other kinds of orthodox communist groups, still denying Stalin's and Mao's crimes up to today.

I know some of these Western hardcore 68ers first hand (like the father of a school buddy of mine), and have to say, they are almost exact mirror images of their Nazi parents, just algebraic signs reversed.

On the other side, there are many very pragmatic social democrats in the Linke, especially in the East.

So while I say it would probably be good for the political culture on the long run, if the SPD gave up their opposition to cooperation with the Left Party, I'd never vote for that party myself. Just way too many nuts among them. But just like the CDU/CSU invited many old Nazis in the 50s and 60s, I think it's good when these people are not excluded, but ideally even reconciliated with the democratic system. Worked at least with the old Nazis then.

 

[German guy]

Here we go: A centrist CDU/CSU - SPD coalition is getting closer.

CSU chairman Seehofer now said he will not consider talks with the Greens. (The center-right CDU/CSU actually consists of two parties: The CSU in Bavaria and the CDU in all other states. Both parties have been forming a united block in the federal parliament ever since 1949.)

So this option is out for Merkel. Leaves her with the SPD.

 

[Artevelde]

I was aware of that history, but I know a couple of Linke activists in Berlin and they do not hanker after a return of the DDR. What they do say is that not everything before reunification was terrible. There were some aspects of life in the East that were actually positive and progressive. No system is 100% evil or 100% good, despite what some of our dualistic thinkers might say. Die Linke is a modern party and seems pretty forward-looking to me, and clearly to about 3.5 million Germans.

It is a party that on its official website defends the DDR as a legitimate experiment. They still defend the DDR.
Would you say that Nazi-Germany was also not 100% bad?