Germans take to streets against US spying programme

[Tovarish]

Not you with your Russian history repeated in USA again! Remember this is a different scenario for it involves a country with friends for a change! This is not an isolated country like Russia was for a change. Things are more transparent, as this spying on friends ordeal shows in this thread.

Naturally. History of Russia - a few thousand years. It was a different story. On this, with historical experience, I say - that expects the U.S.. Will be like in Germany (Weimar Republic): - 1) The huge national debt. - 2) Hyperinflation - 3)Bankruptcy, unemployment, ​​Poverty 95-97% of the population - 4) The huge increase in crime and Racial conflicts - 5) The emergence of a new Fuhrer (who promise to solve all problems and assign blame,- in Germany it was the Jews - in the U.S. - black?, Latinos?, the Chinese? ....?) Can you believe - you can not believe. It will not change anything. Everything happens like this.

 

[Tovarish]

I don't see where I would have delusions of grandeur. I live in Belgium.
You seem to have trouble with reading and understanding.

Бельгийцы завидовать?

 

[joG]

Such as?

There are a large number of things that have been told them. Take the statement that peace in Europe since WW2 has been guaranteed by the European process. This has been one of the staple arguments used. Europe has guaranteed peace and so we must deepen the Union. It was the excuse for the Euro, the Lisbon treaty etc etc etc. But of course it is dead wrong. The EU did nothing, when mass murder and war broke out in Yugoslavia and waited for the US. Peace in Europe had nothing to do with the EU. It had to do with two overwhelming powers armed with atomic weapons enough to destroy the world in twenty minutes and their MAD embrace to prevent it happening. Any politician that misunderstands this should be fired as dangerously poorly informed.

It is however worse. The Depression caused by the introduction of the Euro without transferring sovereignty to the center was an unavoidable and clearly visible outcome, when European leaders signed the Maastricht document. As it was illegal to transfer the sovereignty they decided to go ahead with a doomed currency and accept the poverty and wasted lives first in a decade of stagnation in Germany after entering the Euro at a too high price and then in the PIIGS countries when inflation of non-tradable undercut their economies later. The idea was to take advantage of the crises to force the issue on sovereignty. Effectively, however, sovereignty had been lost with the Maastricht and Lisbon, if sovereignty means a country's freedom to choose. An interesting lie in this context was from the constitutional court, that backed the politicians in the silly hypothesis that Germany was still sovereign. Everyone of consequence knew this to be false.

 

[joG]

The Germans are smarter Dutch. The Germans, not so much lend themselves to manipulation by the U.S. Although United States, is still occupied by the Germany - the Germans are trying to think before what would have to act.

I am sure they would tell you that.
And believe me. I wish them all the luck. In the past years, however, they just have not succeeded very well.

 

[DDD]

Naturally. History of Russia - a few thousand years. It was a different story. On this, with historical experience, I say - that expects the U.S.. Will be like in Germany (Weimar Republic): - 1) The huge national debt. - 2) Hyperinflation - 3)Bankruptcy, unemployment, ​​Poverty 95-97% of the population - 4) The huge increase in crime and Racial conflicts - 5) The emergence of a new Fuhrer (who promise to solve all problems and assign blame,- in Germany it was the Jews - in the U.S. - black?, Latinos?, the Chinese? ....?) Can you believe - you can not believe. It will not change anything. Everything happens like this.

Your "historic experience" together with this add has absolutely no predictive value whatsoever I am afraid. In short words, if people involved in this a mere add know of these many variables playing along in this "downfall" of USA prophecy of yours, then what do you think decision makers could be knowing to counter them? What? They just sit and watch helplessly do they?

Besides your prophecy of "USA's doom" seem to always start with economic/financial crisis. If I were to attempt to inject fear and cause insecurity at the heart of my rivals I would choose the same pseudo-factual starting grounds like you do here too.

But snap out of your narrow Russian experience and observe an alternate history and reality here. For one the USA had a major economic depression earlier on, it only produced strong presidents not murderous dictators such as your Stalin or Deutchlands Fuhrer. So why is it that this time is so special that an awaiting Fuhrer is laying in the shadows of USA awaiting to be emerged upon this supposed straight and unavoidable downfall of USA prophecy of yours?

After a major if USA "falls" such as you and this add of yours project, why wont those depression circumstances produce other strong presidents yet again? It would seem natural for people under certain cultures to produce culture specific presidents such as the one they had in that last depression. Why would USA switch from its usual course of its own historical background of producing strong presidents and produce people such as those of Russian dictators instead? See this is where the narrow mindedness comes from.

 

[DDD]

The EU did nothing, when mass murder and war broke out in Yugoslavia and waited for the US. Peace in Europe had nothing to do with the EU. It had to do with two overwhelming powers armed with atomic weapons enough to destroy the world in twenty minutes and their MAD embrace to prevent it happening. Any politician that misunderstands this should be fired as dangerously poorly informed.

Right, but we in former Yougoslavia were not in EU at the time. The USA did do a better job because it has a unified (whole USA states included) army to intervene. And it did.

Whether the EU whole countries united army would sit or engage in a non welcomed futuristic within EU countries war remains to be seen. Opinions here may vary, but only the USA army is not geographically from Europe today in Dardania. I have seen them cooperate, I am optimistic that a EU army could work together. But probably by keeping foes separate at the beginning at least.

 

[joG]

Whether the EU whole countries united army would sit or engage in a non welcomed futuristic within EU countries war remains to be seen. Opinions here may vary, but only the USA army is not geographically from Europe today in Dardania. I have seen them cooperate, I am optimistic that a EU army could work together. But probably by keeping foes separate at the beginning at least.[/QUOTE]

With a scorecard like that of the EU, do you really think it wise to allow those cranks at the top real power? Living here I shudder at the very thought of it. They lied and rode rough shawed over their constitutions and peoples will. In Germany, where I can judge it quite well, the bureaucracy and politicians break laws continuously without any independent legal means to rein it in.

 

[PeteEU]

Sorry but I beg to differ.

There can be no question in the fact that the Germany knew that its policy would cause the PIIGS countries into depression. Everybody in government knew this. Everyone knew also, that this would slow the world economy considerably. Some of the Ministers and the Chancellor leied about this and were evasive. There was no question of the human harm this would do in the PIIGS and to countries that had spent massively to stop recession. It was clear also, that Germany would profit from the USA or British economic programs via exports, as the Euro's value would fall and the flight of capital inside the Euro would reduce German refinancing costs.

What the nasty Americans said about Germany in this case was true.

! Are you seriously saying that the economic hard times we all went through was due to Europe and not the American decade of debt ridden growth and sub-prime mortgage melt down?

 

[Sanddune]

Interestingly, to me at least, I don't think that electronic surveillance of us all is going to do much more than increase fro the rest of our lives, barring industrial collapse.
Spying on friend, foe and fellow citizen is the pornography of politics.

I hope you're wrong, but you may be right. It is hard to put secret services back under democratic control, but maybe, hopefully, not impossible.

 

[Tovarish]

Your "historic experience" together with this add has absolutely no predictive value whatsoever I am afraid. In short words, if people involved in this a mere add know of these many variables playing along in this "downfall" of USA prophecy of yours, then what do you think decision makers could be knowing to counter them? What? They just sit and watch helplessly do they?

Besides your prophecy of "USA's doom" seem to always start with economic/financial crisis. If I were to attempt to inject fear and cause insecurity at the heart of my rivals I would choose the same pseudo-factual starting grounds like you do here too.

But snap out of your narrow Russian experience and observe an alternate history and reality here. For one the USA had a major economic depression earlier on, it only produced strong presidents not murderous dictators such as your Stalin or Deutchlands Fuhrer. So why is it that this time is so special that an awaiting Fuhrer is laying in the shadows of USA awaiting to be emerged upon this supposed straight and unavoidable downfall of USA prophecy of yours?

After a major if USA "falls" such as you and this add of yours project, why wont those depression circumstances produce other strong presidents yet again? It would seem natural for people under certain cultures to produce culture specific presidents such as the one they had in that last depression. Why would USA switch from its usual course of its own historical background of producing strong presidents and produce people such as those of Russian dictators instead? See this is where the narrow mindedness comes from.

It's not my prophecy. This is a fact. If you feel any better,- I can say that collapse the United States will affect worldwide. It is also a fact. Poor will be everywhere. You have to understand - if you live in debt all the time, sooner or later will collapse. And no it will not prevent. It can only be postponed. But not for long. Now, delay the collapse of the U.S. , all countries, for that would prepare as much as possible. As soon cease to lend - the collapse of the U.S. Or the amount of the debt will be such that the interest on the debt service will exceed the capabilities of credit - the collapse of the U.S.. There is no question - whether or not. Question - when. Given the large number of weapons from the population - will collapse gaily. (Have you seen the movie "Mad Max"?) You've heard that many States US say the introduction of its the currency? What for? Think.

 

[joG]

! Are you seriously saying that the economic hard times we all went through was due to Europe and not the American decade of debt ridden growth and sub-prime mortgage melt down?

In no way did I say that.

What I said was, that enforced saving by governments into a recession creates depression, while spending would have tided Europe over. In effect, Germany's behavior made the crisis worse for everybody else, while siphoning off the spending by other countries to stop the deterioration and profiting from capital flight out of countries Germany was pushing off the economic cliff. And German politicians knew this. They had experience with the way to handle Euro caused recession. They had been on their way into recession after joining the Euro because the DM had been brought in at an over valued price. Instead of saving, as they have prescribed for the PIIGS, they increased state spending and broke all the contracts with their Euro partners.

 

[PeteEU]

In no way did I say that.

What I said was, that enforced saving by governments into a recession creates depression, while spending would have tided Europe over.

I agree, but they are following American right wing economic theory.. yet again. Ever since Obama started to run for office, the mantra on the right in the US and later in Europe, was cut cut cut government spending during a recession to save the world. It is and always has been bull****, and history proves that... the great depression was "great" because the US government cut and cut after the crash and created a credit crunch of epic proportions. There was way too much focus on government debt, and not enough focus on job creation and reforms .. mostly by the media and so called expert pundits who all promoted a radical right wing economic agenda.

In effect, Germany's behavior made the crisis worse for everybody else, while siphoning off the spending by other countries to stop the deterioration and profiting from capital flight out of countries Germany was pushing off the economic cliff. And German politicians knew this. They had experience with the way to handle Euro caused recession. They had been on their way into recession after joining the Euro because the DM had been brought in at an over valued price. Instead of saving, as they have prescribed for the PIIGS, they increased state spending and broke all the contracts with their Euro partners.

Here I disagree. While Germany's behavior at times was crazy.. like not allowing the printing of Euro's, their motives were just. Some of their methods were harsh, but in most cases it was needed... some peoples/countries simply need some common sense knocked into their thick skulls.

The countries involved in the crisis all had different structural problems that they had refused to deal with for decades, and some were in fact not implementing EU rules just out of spite... rules that could have saved some of the pain. For example Italy. Had Italy reformed its business laws and allowed competition, then Italy would never have gotten into such a serious problem. Italy has for decades been the bad boy in opening up its markets and implementing EU rules they agreed too.. Berloscoloony was a joke and huge problem and behind this delaying since it would hit his business empire, and I thank the gods that Germany pushed him over the edge in the end (and now he is going to jail WWEEEEEE!).

Had Spain reformed its labor laws in the late 1990s as suggested then, then they would not have had such a bad unemployment. Having 4% growth and still 10% unemployment shows some serious issues with the labor market...

And in Greece's case... they needed punishment and to be set as an example of what not to do.... which is what happened. No matter how you slice or dice it, Greece needed a reality check and it needed to be tough. Kicking them out of the Euro would not have worked, and the reforms needed would not have happened. They are now happening, and in the long run it will only benefit Greeks... and eventually I hope they will understand. Greeks should not blame Germany or the EU that much (just some).. it is their own politicians that are the problem and the lack of leadership caused the problem in the first place. I would have liked to see some Iceland justice in Greece... where politicians and bankers were put on trial and convicted for knowingly driving the country into the abyss.

But in the end Europe was hit by a multitude of different issues and they were all triggered by the US sub-prime mortgage crisis and Germany being the strongest economy stood at a turning point.. continue with Europe or go it solo. The consequences of letting the European project fall apart would have been mindboggling for Germany and the rest of the world, so they saw an opportunity to fix some of the structural problems in their own country but also in other member countries and stick with a revised European project.

It is a bit like going cold turkey after 20 years of smoking. It can be done differently.. slowly which many on the left advocated, or the cold turkey way.. which what happened thanks to mostly right wing governments in power across Europe... for the last decade.

And we are now seeing some of the benefits after years of pain. Spanish unemployment fell for the first time in 2 years the last quarter and European manufacturing is up and confidence is up. Hell we might even see growth this year. But the reforms continue, but the harsh timelines and conditions which Germany (and everyone else) put in place are being extended a tad to accommodate the reality on the ground.. as long as the reforms continue. And we have finally gotten banking reform in many countries in the Eurozone and the first steps on a banking union, which frankly should have been in place at the start of the Euro project. Let me give you some good news... you know Bankia in Spain.. the bank that was bailed out? Well it turned a profit last quarter..

Personally I would have gone the less cold turkey way and started to print more Euros. I would have linked funding of countries like Spain, Italy, Ireland and so on, with reforms in critical areas of their economies. Deficits would not have been the primary marker as they have become, but a secondary one. Job creation would have been the primary marker of how well a country was doing. Yes structural deficits had to be tackled (waste and such), but most of the deficits in Ireland, Spain, Portugal and so on was due to the economic crisis, not overspending as the right loved to say. Put growth and job creation at the for-front and the deficits would be reduced considerably. The irony is, that if Spain or Italy could get their economies going.. more jobs and such.. then the deficits would disappear and there would be surpluses.

I would also have been far more harsh on the European banking industry and forced through regulations like a bail-out fund which should be funded by the banks themselves. On this front the Germans and French could have done much much more. I would also have forced more nationalizations of companies that caused or were implicit in the crisis in the local area. In Spain that would be the debt ridden building companies for example, and certain banks. They have tried to save the banks but have pretty much left the building companies without any consequences and that is frankly disgusting.

I suggest we take this debate to another thread, since it is not really relevant to US tapping of European telecommunications.

And yes this is wayyyyyyyyy off topic some what mods and I apologize . But in some ways it is not, because the crisis has put in anti-German feelings across Europe, that is some what relevant when disguising Germans protesting the US and "anti-US" feelings.

 

[DDD]

It's not my prophecy. This is a fact. If you feel any better,- I can say that collapse the United States will affect worldwide. It is also a fact. Poor will be everywhere. You have to understand - if you live in debt all the time, sooner or later will collapse. And no it will not prevent. It can only be postponed. But not for long. Now, delay the collapse of the U.S. , all countries, for that would prepare as much as possible. As soon cease to lend - the collapse of the U.S. Or the amount of the debt will be such that the interest on the debt service will exceed the capabilities of credit - the collapse of the U.S.. There is no question - whether or not. Question - when. Given the large number of weapons from the population - will collapse gaily. (Have you seen the movie "Mad Max"?) You've heard that many States US say the introduction of its the currency? What for? Think.

Great. First the advertisement and now "Mad Max." You need to go out more. See the USA, see their allies, see the cooperation, study USA history (and what kind of leaders it produces in economic depression compared to yours), and then get back to us.

But wait, you cannot travel can you? Visas for Russians are particularly seldom issued are they not?

 

[Tovarish]

Great. First the advertisement and now "Mad Max." You need to go out more. See the USA, see their allies, see the cooperation, study USA history (and what kind of leaders it produces in economic depression compared to yours), and then get back to us.

But wait, you cannot travel can you? Visas for Russians are particularly seldom issued are they not?

* laughs * 1) U.S. allies - Saudi Arabia, Qatar.... (Countries with primitive customs.) Israel (fascist state that without the approval of bombing other countries (as well as the United States)). Beggar Eu and the same beggar japan .... However - to be friends with the dregs of a tradition of the U.S. government. When Franklin D Roosevelt was confronted with the multiple cruelties of his ally, the Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza, he replied: "He may be a sonofabitch, but he's our sonofabitch."
2) What story do you propose to study the U.S.? Genocide of the Indians? Or Slavery? Cause great depression or crimes in Vietnam? Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo? Or total spying on their own people? * Laughs *
3) If any U.S. president, who held office after the Second World War, was judged by the standards of the Nuremberg Tribunal, would be hanged as a war criminal\\\
You can start, perhaps, with Truman. Soon after he became president, he gave the order to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima - for that, they were still able to find some reason, I personally feel that this is no excuse - but the second bomb dropped on Nagasaki, totally unjustified. First of all it was a test of the new weapon. Then there was another gratuitous raid, called the great "finale", when a thousand planes bombed Japan AFTER the signing of the surrender.
Besides for example, support for the brutal counter-revolutionary campaign in Greece, during which killed 150,000 people, recovered the vicegerents Nazis and suppressed the guerrilla movement.\\\Eisenhower. during the Eisenhower in Korea remained targets for bombing,- everything is leveled to the ground, then they dropped bombs on the dam and then excitedly told as water flooded villages, killing, destroying crops, etc. So, for this - less than this - hung. In Nuremberg were hanged for the open dam. You can not forget the events in Guatemala and other countries, where at the time of Eisenhower committed terrible crimes.\\\Kennedy openly attacked South Vietnam. In 1961-62 he directed Air Force bombed with napalm and poison the villagers. He also laid the foundation for the massive wave of repression in Latin America, where neo-Nazi gangsters, and at U.S. support was given an opportunity to seize power. This continued during the presidency of Johnson.\\\NIXON, for example, the bombing of Cambodia in 1973 were brutal crime. It was just a massacre of peasants. - As a result of direct and indirect U.S. action in Cambodia were killed 600,000 people.\\\ FORD. - Support for Indonesia's attack on East Timor. Has led to the largest genocide since Hitler - the destruction of almost 30% of the population. 90% of the weapons used in this case was an American. When Indonesia's depleted stocks of weapons, Carter increased deliveries in 1978, this is the year the massacres peaked.\\\ REAGAN. During his presidency of the World Court found the U.S. guilty of "unlawful use of force", referring to the aggression in Nicaragua. Only in Central America more than 200,000 people have been killed in the bloodshed unleashed by the United States. In southern Africa, were killed about 1.5 million people and caused damage amounting to $ 60 billion, according to UN commissions had worked, which was investigating the events from 1980 to 1988.\\\ About Bush- 1, Clinton, Bush- 2 and Obama speak at all funny.
4) * Laughs * You are surrounded by myths. Russia - the most free country. Russian can ride without fear wherever wish. And buy what they want without fear. This is different from the Americans. Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from the Feds

 

[DDD]

I see you have gathered remaining bits of negative expressions just to smut USA and it's allies. Luckily though I just happen to have more time today.

* laughs * 1) U.S. allies - Saudi Arabia, Qatar.... (Countries with primitive customs).

Well if you do not want them due to their "primitivity" then we will gladly have them and offer our hand to them in friendship. In the meantime see if you can find other non-sense just to stay away from the remaining potential countries that just might still have a positive outlook on you (even after all your war crimes). That way you will be isolated for good and on your own. Best place to be right?

Israel (fascist state that without the approval of bombing other countries (as well as the United States)).

Israel is bombing other countries without your approval? You expected it to sit by and be taken over off their lands while waiting a signed document from you perhaps? Sorry, you need to stop looking at the negatives of each country and be more civilized before any country will ask for you proposals (let alone approval).

As for Israel bombing of USA, that is a good try, but they were dancing of joy that the USA will be bombing their enemies in 9/11 attacks. There are though conspirators even here whom may join you in this raid of yours.

Beggar Eu and the same beggar japan ....

If the EU is a beggar then your beggars in Russia must be some kind of tough bustards. For when you cut Deutchland with gas supply in the peak of winter that year I only saw an ultimatum issued to Russia to re-supply with gas immediately. It did not took too long for you to rush with legs up to your necks to honor that ultimatum! Or else you'd had freaking Deutch in Moscow in lightskrieg (faster than blitz). Yes, it is a brand new technology they have been developing. Nothing you would know about it. It is a secret amongst us friends, not you there who finds every nit wick to complain about (see "primitive" above and and "beggars" in this paragraph).

Same goes for Japan being beggars. You have yet a war to win against these beggars of yours.

However - to be friends with the dregs of a tradition of the U.S. government. When Franklin D Roosevelt was confronted with the multiple cruelties of his ally, the Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza, he replied: "He may be a sonofabitch, but he's our sonofabitch."

So now we have "dregs" also. You are so high and pure of all crimes that we dregs, primitives, and beggars are so difficult to level with you.

As for Roosevelt, what he meant there I think that the alternative of Somoza being your sonofabitch would have been a far worse consequence than what it became. Basically under your Russia the revolution would have never occurred later cause you have no human values and oppress until the end and get away with dictatorships.

2) What story do you propose to study the U.S.? Genocide of the Indians? Or Slavery? Cause great depression or crimes in Vietnam? Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo? Or total spying on their own people? * Laughs *

Anyone of them would do. * Laughs back * Just get your facts straight before you smut.

3) If any U.S. president, who held office after the Second World War, was judged by the standards of the Nuremberg Tribunal, would be hanged as a war criminal\\\

Interesting speculation really. But the thing is that since the USA was not in that tribunal shows that war crimes and US presidents may not have things in common. Besides, how would Stalin ware of in the Tribunal do you think? Hanging or he would have a heart attack like your ally Milloschevich maybe?

You can start, perhaps, with Truman. Soon after he became president, he gave the order to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima - for that, they were still able to find some reason, I personally feel that this is no excuse - but the second bomb dropped on Nagasaki, totally unjustified. First of all it was a test of the new weapon. Then there was another gratuitous raid, called the great "finale", when a thousand planes bombed Japan AFTER the signing of the surrender.
Besides for example, support for the brutal counter-revolutionary campaign in Greece, during which killed 150,000 people, recovered the vicegerents Nazis and suppressed the guerrilla movement.\\\

It was war and a big misunderstanding. Japanese generals were aware of the upcoming threat and they issued a somewhat vague message related to "silence." It meant different things to USA and Japanese. But Japan is booming its economy and is free. Cannot say the same with countries you had to work with.

As for Greece, you need to be more specific. When was this? Vicegerents do not help much.

Eisenhower. during the Eisenhower in Korea remained targets for bombing,- everything is leveled to the ground, then they dropped bombs on the dam and then excitedly told as water flooded villages, killing, destroying crops, etc. So, for this - less than this - hung. In Nuremberg were hanged for the open dam. You can not forget the events in Guatemala and other countries, where at the time of Eisenhower committed terrible crimes.\\\

It was war between Koreans influenced by you and your imprisoning communism and Koreans influenced from liberating democracy. Which one fares better today?

I do not see what Guatemala has anything to do with Eisenhower. The USA supports whom the majority in the country supports. Besides who made the peace deal between the guerrillas and the government there? Who? You?! Nope! It was USA's "dregs," "primitives," and "beggars" such as Norway and Spain!

Kennedy openly attacked South Vietnam. In 1961-62 he directed Air Force bombed with napalm and poison the villagers. He also laid the foundation for the massive wave of repression in Latin America, where neo-Nazi gangsters, and at U.S. support was given an opportunity to seize power. This continued during the presidency of Johnson.\\\

The USA was in Vietnam to liberate its southern population from your enslaving communism. It was working well for a time. Those air force attacks were done from the South Vietnamese and were mistaken targets.

As for "Latin America" you should be more specific for there are many countries involved there.

NIXON, for example, the bombing of Cambodia in 1973 were brutal crime. It was just a massacre of peasants. - As a result of direct and indirect U.S. action in Cambodia were killed 600,000 people.\\\

You are speaking of Khmer Rouge? They were Cambodians for Pete's sake!

FORD. - Support for Indonesia's attack on East Timor. Has led to the largest genocide since Hitler - the destruction of almost 30% of the population. 90% of the weapons used in this case was an American. When Indonesia's depleted stocks of weapons, Carter increased deliveries in 1978, this is the year the massacres peaked.\\\

Profiting from weapon sales during war is common. Can you guess who sold weapons to us while we were fighting for our freedom from your Serbs? It was your former pall, Ukraine. Do you know who provided weapons to Bosnians while they fight to survive? Was Serbs themselves! So trade knows no political boundaries. Deal with it.

REAGAN. During his presidency of the World Court found the U.S. guilty of "unlawful use of force", referring to the aggression in Nicaragua. Only in Central America more than 200,000 people have been killed in the bloodshed unleashed by the United States. In southern Africa, were killed about 1.5 million people and caused damage amounting to $ 60 billion, according to UN commissions had worked, which was investigating the events from 1980 to 1988.\\\

Well okay, Reagan was a bit off. But you see this is what normal presidents should do. They recognize their extreme positions and retreat. Would Stalin or Putin do that?

About Bush- 1, Clinton, Bush- 2 and Obama speak at all funny.

So how come when the better presidents suddenly appear you have no comment and just state them as "funny?"

4) * Laughs * You are surrounded by myths. Russia - the most free country. Russian can ride without fear wherever wish. And buy what they want without fear. This is different from the Americans.

No I am not * Laugh Back * . But I do agree that your definition of freedom significantly differs from those of Americans. We've had USA and various other EU "beggar" NATO country troops here since 1999. We also had your satellite troops here of Serbs from 1878 till 1999. I think we are at the best position to judge the difference between you and them. Now sit somewhere quiet and hold on to your chair for what I am about to tell you may shock you!

YOU SUCK AT FREEDOM!!

During your period "freedom" meant that there was nothing but forceful looting, re-arrangement of wealth, mass forceful deportation, and genocide. Your ally was "free" to oppress and increase territorial and economical wealth from our demise ever since 1878. They are three folds bigger and wealthier now because of your "freedom."

Now compare to the real freedom that we gained with the help of USA and "beggar" EU. We are prospering! What we work, the tax, remain here, we get to benefit from our own work, and are developing our own country for ourselves for a change. This is real freedom and that above is fvcking not you freaking lunatic!!

Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from the Feds

Yeah, false alarm. Big deal!

 

[Tovarish]

I see you have gathered remaining bits of negative expressions just to smut USA and it's allies. Luckily though I just happen to have more time today.



Well if you do not want them due to their "primitivity" then we will gladly have them and offer our hand to them in friendship. In the meantime see if you can find other non-sense just to stay away from the remaining potential countries that just might still have a positive outlook on you (even after all your war crimes). That way you will be isolated for good and on your own. Best place to be right?



Israel is bombing other countries without your approval? You expected it to sit by and be taken over off their lands while waiting a signed document from you perhaps? Sorry, you need to stop looking at the negatives of each country and be more civilized before any country will ask for you proposals (let alone approval).

As for Israel bombing of USA, that is a good try, but they were dancing of joy that the USA will be bombing their enemies in 9/11 attacks. There are though conspirators even here whom may join you in this raid of yours.



If the EU is a beggar then your beggars in Russia must be some kind of tough bustards. For when you cut Deutchland with gas supply in the peak of winter that year I only saw an ultimatum issued to Russia to re-supply with gas immediately. It did not took too long for you to rush with legs up to your necks to honor that ultimatum! Or else you'd had freaking Deutch in Moscow in lightskrieg (faster than blitz). Yes, it is a brand new technology they have been developing. Nothing you would know about it. It is a secret amongst us friends, not you there who finds every nit wick to complain about (see "primitive" above and and "beggars" in this paragraph).

Same goes for Japan being beggars. You have yet a war to win against these beggars of yours.



So now we have "dregs" also. You are so high and pure of all crimes that we dregs, primitives, and beggars are so difficult to level with you.

As for Roosevelt, what he meant there I think that the alternative of Somoza being your sonofabitch would have been a far worse consequence than what it became. Basically under your Russia the revolution would have never occurred later cause you have no human values and oppress until the end and get away with dictatorships.



Anyone of them would do. * Laughs back * Just get your facts straight before you smut.



Interesting speculation really. But the thing is that since the USA was not in that tribunal shows that war crimes and US presidents may not have things in common. Besides, how would Stalin ware of in the Tribunal do you think? Hanging or he would have a heart attack like your ally Milloschevich maybe?



It was war and a big misunderstanding. Japanese generals were aware of the upcoming threat and they issued a somewhat vague message related to "silence." It meant different things to USA and Japanese. But Japan is booming its economy and is free. Cannot say the same with countries you had to work with.

As for Greece, you need to be more specific. When was this? Vicegerents do not help much.



It was war between Koreans influenced by you and your imprisoning communism and Koreans influenced from liberating democracy. Which one fares better today?

I do not see what Guatemala has anything to do with Eisenhower. The USA supports whom the majority in the country supports. Besides who made the peace deal between the guerrillas and the government there? Who? You?! Nope! It was USA's "dregs," "primitives," and "beggars" such as Norway and Spain!



The USA was in Vietnam to liberate its southern population from your enslaving communism. It was working well for a time. Those air force attacks were done from the South Vietnamese and were mistaken targets.

As for "Latin America" you should be more specific for there are many countries involved there.



You are speaking of Khmer Rouge? They were Cambodians for Pete's sake!



Profiting from weapon sales during war is common. Can you guess who sold weapons to us while we were fighting for our freedom from your Serbs? It was your former pall, Ukraine. Do you know who provided weapons to Bosnians while they fight to survive? Was Serbs themselves! So trade knows no political boundaries. Deal with it.



Well okay, Reagan was a bit off. But you see this is what normal presidents should do. They recognize their extreme positions and retreat. Would Stalin or Putin do that?



So how come when the better presidents suddenly appear you have no comment and just state them as "funny?"



No I am not * Laugh Back * . But I do agree that your definition of freedom significantly differs from those of Americans. We've had USA and various other EU "beggar" NATO country troops here since 1999. We also had your satellite troops here of Serbs from 1878 till 1999. I think we are at the best position to judge the difference between you and them. Now sit somewhere quiet and hold on to your chair for what I am about to tell you may shock you!

YOU SUCK AT FREEDOM!!

During your period "freedom" meant that there was nothing but forceful looting, re-arrangement of wealth, mass forceful deportation, and genocide. Your ally was "free" to oppress and increase territorial and economical wealth from our demise ever since 1878. They are three folds bigger and wealthier now because of your "freedom."

Now compare to the real freedom that we gained with the help of USA and "beggar" EU. We are prospering! What we work, the tax, remain here, we get to benefit from our own work, and are developing our own country for ourselves for a change. This is real freedom and that above is fvcking not you freaking lunatic!!



Yeah, false alarm. Big deal!

I'm not going to convince you. To respond to your nonsense - is meaningless. Milosevic and Karadzic - the heroes. They defended their country. Albanians, as far as I know, trading in human organs. As for Putin. You know the best head of state? And yet - you can not carry on discus. You are asking about the United States - I answer my opinion about the United States - you say, "but in Russia - that is the fact that ...". But we are talking about the United States. If you want to know about Russia - ask about Russia.

 

[DDD]

I'm not going to convince you. To respond to your nonsense - is meaningless.

Yet when you state your nonsense we here try to understand and reply back to you. This is where we may differ apart from being more civil and sociable related to "primitive," "dreds," and "beggar" countries that you state. I in fact think that this is the humaine way to approach another, and wish you would follow and model from. Hopefully one day.

You see no matter how difficult, polarized, and barely English comments that you have always stated as "facts" against USA and allies we here still communicate with you. This would not be the case in Russia, or any of its allies such as Serbia, I know so. But I hope you change and open up to people more. You would find yourselves no longer isolated as you are turning out to be.

Milosevic and Karadzic - the heroes. They defended their country. Albanians, as far as I know, trading in human organs.

Right, exactly. So dictators, mass murderers, and oppressors are "heroes" while liberators and freedom fighters are "criminals." Have you heard that your heroes have killed thousands of children, women, and elderly in a similar fashion as Hitler and Stalin? What kind of heroes do such things in Russia? Can I be a hero in Russia by committing similar atrocities, genocide, and other crimes against humanity there also? Would you praise me as a "hero" if I were to commit genocide against Russians or Serbs? Or does it just happens to hurt in a special way when it is one of yours?

It is different when the situation is reverse and it is about one of yours is it not? Or would we be heroes for committing acts of genocide in Russia or Serbia also?

As for Putin. You know the best head of state?

The best there is indeed. Enjoy having him!

And yet - you can not carry on discus. You are asking about the United States - I answer my opinion about the United States - you say, "but in Russia - that is the fact that ...". But we are talking about the United States. If you want to know about Russia - ask about Russia.

The way it is here is that when one is to criticize by pointing out only the negative aspects of every other country but theirs, it is assumed that you piss on other countries while you promote yours to be better than theirs in those regards. I was pointing out how fvcked up your dearest country of Russia was in comparison, especially in regards to "freedom" that you mentioned earlier. As I said, no, you are way back in promoting freedom the normal, usual, civil way that every human should benefit.

 

[Tovarish]

Yet when you state your nonsense we here try to understand and reply back to you. This is where we may differ apart from being more civil and sociable related to "primitive," "dreds," and "beggar" countries that you state. I in fact think that this is the humaine way to approach another, and wish you would follow and model from. Hopefully one day.

You see no matter how difficult, polarized, and barely English comments that you have always stated as "facts" against USA and allies we here still communicate with you. This would not be the case in Russia, or any of its allies such as Serbia, I know so. But I hope you change and open up to people more. You would find yourselves no longer isolated as you are turning out to be.



Right, exactly. So dictators, mass murderers, and oppressors are "heroes" while liberators and freedom fighters are "criminals." Have you heard that your heroes have killed thousands of children, women, and elderly in a similar fashion as Hitler and Stalin? What kind of heroes do such things in Russia? Can I be a hero in Russia by committing similar atrocities, genocide, and other crimes against humanity there also? Would you praise me as a "hero" if I were to commit genocide against Russians or Serbs? Or does it just happens to hurt in a special way when it is one of yours?

It is different when the situation is reverse and it is about one of yours is it not? Or would we be heroes for committing acts of genocide in Russia or Serbia also?



The best there is indeed. Enjoy having him!



The way it is here is that when one is to criticize by pointing out only the negative aspects of every other country but theirs, it is assumed that you piss on other countries while you promote yours to be better than theirs in those regards. I was pointing out how fvcked up your dearest country of Russia was in comparison, especially in regards to "freedom" that you mentioned earlier. As I said, no, you are way back in promoting freedom the normal, usual, civil way that every human should benefit.

You want to talk about the "bad" Russia? All right. In Russia really had a big problem, I do not deny it (most recently, in Russia (eg, in 2005. Was a civil war. Completely dead economy. Much poverty, etc.). Of the blame for these problems lies with on idiot the Gorbocheve and the alcoholic Yeltsin. But it's all in the past. I was in Russia. Despite the global crisis of 2008, Russia remarkably quickly vostanavlivaetsja. Really amazing. You need to come to Russia and to make sure - Russia is the most free country. If you see with your own eyes, you will understand - as funny propaganda in the West. For example in the "rich" european union all the time to cut pensions and social benefits. In Russia - growth. As for Putin. Read the comments, for example, the Germans. "Die Welt" - is not a pro-Russian. Russischer Präsident : Putin klagt ARD an Nonsense about Stalin's crimes will not comment. If you wonder what made Stalin look here http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...od-which-spent-billions-3.html#post1062072567 I answered your questions? (note - I did not translate into the problems of other countries.)
PS You did not answer about the trade Albanians. human organs.

 

[DDD]

You want to talk about the "bad" Russia? All right. In Russia really had a big problem, I do not deny it (most recently, in Russia (eg, in 2005. Was a civil war. Completely dead economy. Much poverty, etc.). Of the blame for these problems lies with on idiot the Gorbocheve and the alcoholic Yeltsin. But it's all in the past. I was in Russia. Despite the global crisis of 2008, Russia remarkably quickly vostanavlivaetsja. Really amazing.

What is "vostanavlivaetsja" and where are you from? What is your nationality?

You need to come to Russia and to make sure - Russia is the most free country. If you see with your own eyes, you will understand - as funny propaganda in the West. For example in the "rich" european union all the time to cut pensions and social benefits. In Russia - growth. As for Putin. Read the comments, for example, the Germans. "Die Welt" - is not a pro-Russian. Russischer Präsident : Putin klagt ARD an Nonsense about Stalin's crimes will not comment. If you wonder what made Stalin look here http://www.debatepolitics.com/histo...od-which-spent-billions-3.html#post1062072567

All I see is sources in non English and a thread in DP where you are asked of sources in English yet again. If you want people to understand you here: Speak English please!

I answered your questions? (note - I did not translate into the problems of other countries.)
PS You did not answer about the trade Albanians. human organs.

Organ trafficking of captured Serbs is a pure fabrication issued from Serb sympathizers in EU. They wanted to cut Serbs some break since they were in pressure for their crimes against humanity that they committed only for the one in 1999 (the ones before in: 1945, 1912, and 1878 were not mentioned yet). It is influence in the big body of EU that ultimately lacked substance (for there was no facts but mere speculation and eager book writing authors).

There were captured Albanians from Serbs who claim that Serbs in fact beat them bad into signing a document that showed that they were willing to "donate" their organs. If you are so fond of movies then there is this movie made from French authors that illustrates the infamous "yellow house."

Now you did not answer my question: Would we too be heroes if we were to commit genocide in Russia or Serbia?

 

[Tovarish]

What is "vostanavlivaetsja" and where are you from? What is your nationality?



All I see is sources in non English and a thread in DP where you are asked of sources in English yet again. If you want people to understand you here: Speak English please!



Organ trafficking of captured Serbs is a pure fabrication issued from Serb sympathizers in EU. They wanted to cut Serbs some break since they were in pressure for their crimes against humanity that they committed only for the one in 1999 (the ones before in: 1945, 1912, and 1878 were not mentioned yet). It is influence in the big body of EU that ultimately lacked substance (for there was no facts but mere speculation and eager book writing authors).

There were captured Albanians from Serbs who claim that Serbs in fact beat them bad into signing a document that showed that they were willing to "donate" their organs. If you are so fond of movies then there is this movie made from French authors that illustrates the infamous "yellow house."

Now you did not answer my question: Would we too be heroes if we were to commit genocide in Russia or Serbia?

What is "vostanavlivaetsja" and where are you from?

"vostanavlivaetsja" - recovery (slang)

All I see is sources in non English and a thread in DP where you are asked of sources in English yet again.

In English, I did not find this information. Apparently, censorship does not resolve. Otherwise, all the lies of Western propaganda will be visible. But if you want to know the truth - you can read in Russian. I'm, for example, reading.

Organ trafficking of captured Serbs is a pure fabrication issued from Serb sympathizers in EU.

Further reading did not. All realized with the first sentence - evil the Serbs and albanian the elves.

Now you did not answer my question: Would we too be heroes if we were to commit genocide in Russia or Serbia?

1) everything is relative - looking for anyone. 2) Milosevic and Koradzhich, protect the integrity of their country. The terrorists - destroyed the country. If in Russia (and in any country) human fought for the preservation of their country and destroying the terrorists - he is a hero. If in Russia (and in any country) human destroying its country - he's a traitor. For example, Gorbachev - a traitor. Does that answer your question?

 

[DDD]

1) everything is relative - looking for anyone. 2) Milosevic and Koradzhich, protect the integrity of their country. The terrorists - destroyed the country. If in Russia (and in any country) human fought for the preservation of their country and destroying the terrorists - he is a hero. If in Russia (and in any country) human destroying its country - he's a traitor. For example, Gorbachev - a traitor. Does that answer your question?

Those people committed genocide. How does genocide translates to "preservation of their country" in Russian?

 

[Tovarish]

Those people committed genocide. How does genocide translates to "preservation of their country" in Russian?

Genocide - as it was with the Indians in the U.S.? Or genocide - when the Albanians were killed Serbs, only for the fact that they are the Serbs and the Orthodox? How many Orthodox churches destroyed? For example, in Kosovo and Metohija. You about this genocide?

 

[Mr. Invisible]

A government employee who willfully attempts to undermine or compromise the safety of the nation he serves is a traitor.

Perhaps your "federal laws" and "constitution" are too lenient.

Actually, Snowden is not a traitor by any legal means. That is why he is being tried under the Espionage Act rather than being charged with treason.

 

[DDD]

... when the Albanians were killed Serbs, only for the fact that they are the Serbs and the Orthodox? How many Orthodox churches destroyed? For example, in Kosovo and Metohija. You about this genocide?

Albanians killed Serbs because they were Serb and Orthodox! Ok, so now Serbs are the victims (even though they grew three time at our demise), Milosevic is a hero (even though he was at the Hague tribunal), Putin is the true leader (even though various rights are oppressed), and Russia is the most free country in the world (even though NGO's are being bullied and free press is practically non existent).

You idiot, the Serbs were the power backed from you the Russians! We were the ones protecting our lands that we held ever since prehistoric times! Read some history Mr. "Historic Experience!"

You are either just putting things out of your ass or you are incredibly ignorant and poisoned with your bias media. Jeeesh!

Alternatively you could be mentally challenged also.

Besides you are going out of your way to not answer the question. If I was to commit genocide in Russia, would I be a hero just like Milosevic? Tell us how mass murderers become heroes in Russia?

 

[Tovarish]

Albanians killed Serbs because they were Serb and Orthodox! Ok, so now Serbs are the victims (even though they grew three time at our demise), Milosevic is a hero (even though he was at the Hague tribunal), Putin is the true leader (even though various rights are oppressed), and Russia is the most free country in the world (even though NGO's are being bullied and free press is practically non existent).

You idiot, the Serbs were the power backed from you the Russians! We were the ones protecting our lands that we held ever since prehistoric times! Read some history Mr. "Historic Experience!"

You are either just putting things out of your ass or you are incredibly ignorant and poisoned with your bias media. Jeeesh!

Alternatively you could be mentally challenged also.

Besides you are going out of your way to not answer the question. If I was to commit genocide in Russia, would I be a hero just like Milosevic? Tell us how mass murderers become heroes in Russia?

You idiot, the Serbs were the power backed from you the Russians!

Idiot - it's you. Apparently, the Albanians are only able insulted and trade in human organs. Now I understand the Serbs. Who will endure when insulted? Of course - the victims Serbs.

1)The Hague tribunal? Do not make me laugh. Read the memoirs of Carla Del Ponte - chief prosecutor of the Hague tribunal. Most disturbing is Ms Del Ponte's tale of how her team investigated allegations that in the summer of 1999 up to 300 people were kidnapped with the involvement of men, some very senior, from the Kosovo Liberation Army, a guerrilla group. From Kosovo they were taken to Albania where all were murdered, a small number after their organs had been harvested. One Albanian prosecutor told her team, “If they did bring Serbs over the border from Kosovo and killed them, they did a good thing”. Where was your tribunal? Madame Prosecutor: Confrontations with Humanity's Worst Criminals and the Culture of Impunity: Carla Del Ponte, Chuck Sudetic: Amazon.com: Books The constant theme of this book is the tension between the demands of justice and the victims and those of political expediency.
2) Do not write crap? In Russia then was a civil war. Russia could help many Serbs. The United States, A lot helped of anti-Serb alliance. U.S. even bombed the Serbs, spit on the UN resolution.

3)

Putin is the true leader (even though various rights are oppressed), and Russia is the most free country in the world (even though NGO's are being bullied and free press is practically non existent).

I spit on NGOs and the fact that they write. You were in Russia under Putin? Or You zombified, Western media? I maintain - Russia is the freest country in the world. In Russia - the freest media. If you do not believe me - come to Russia and see yourself. And of course, Russia is much freer than the U.S. I saw an interesting observation - Western people talk of Russian laws (eg law banning gay propaganda) - without reading the bill. (Get information from the Western media). Talk about the "dictatorship" of Putin - not having been in Russia. It's very funny.

4) On Genocide. If you was to commit genocide in Russia, would you be a invader. If massacres committed resident of Russia, who wanted to destroy the country, it would be - the executioner, freak, maniac,....., criminal. (For example, Trotsky, Gorbachev) If a man, kill terrorists and protect the integrity of their country - he is a hero.
(For example. general Wrangel, marshal Zhukov, generalisimus Suvorov.) What you do not understand my answer?