German Police Storm Homeschoolers' homes, Seize Children by Force

[Ikari]

Ehh, Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. Nerds to the enth degree. Social outcasts? Mmmm...not really.

Are you kidding? Bill Gates had to buy a wife. You think you get that by being socially extroverted? Pssssh.

Besides, what do you have? 2 examples out of how many nerds? Please. Learn statistics and come back, jock.

 

[Sanddune]

You may say it's reasonable to have a law about school attendance, OK....

Then how should that law be enforced? Please make a practical, doable suggestion on how the law requiring school attendance should be enforced if parents just keep their kids at home no matter what.

 

[Ikari]

Then how should that law be enforced? Please make a practical, doable suggestion on how the law requiring school attendance should be enforced if parents just keep their kids at home no matter what.

Fines maybe community service, something of the sort. But you can't steal people's kids, that's a bridge too far.

 

[Sanddune]

Fines maybe community service, something of the sort. But you can't steal people's kids, that's a bridge too far.

I think it's sort of the last resort if nothing else works. I guess it's what happens if fines, community service and everything else doesn't work. The idea is that at the end of the day the state just has to do what it takes to ensure that the kids attend school. As I said, I don't know if the police really did the right thing in this particular case. And the behaviour of the police sounded rougher than necessary.

Taking kids away from their parents is a horrible thing but under certain conditions it can be necessary. How do you define those conditions? In Germany it includes refusing to send your kids to school.

 

[Ikari]

I think it's sort of the last resort if nothing else works. I guess it's what happens if fines, community service and everything else doesn't work. The idea is that at the end of the day the state just has to do what it takes to ensure that the kids attend school. As I said, I don't know if the police really did the right thing in this particular case. And the behaviour of the police sounded rougher than necessary.

Taking kids away from their parents is a horrible thing but under certain conditions it can be necessary. How do you define those conditions? In Germany it includes refusing to send your kids to school.

Abuse is perhaps one of the only reasons through which the State can justly abduct kids.

 

[paris]

It's really funny to read the rhetoric of some people in this thread. They talk of kids as if they were some sort of goods (to steal, to own, whatever). Your kids are yours by filiation, not by ownership. Try learning the difference. Thanks.

 

[Bodi]

To use clear words:

After your 9/11 violations of the most basic Western values and constitutional values, Americans are in a pretty bad situation to lecture Germans about freedom. Do us all a favor, and shut the **** up.

Until you no longer allow the executive to be above the law and constitution, by allowing it to be accuser, judge and hankerman in the same person. Shut the **** up lecturing other people about basic standards of Western civilization. You break them all the time.

Thanks to our public education, every German pupil knows such policies are worth of Hitler and the likes, but not of a free, democratic republic.

That's twice you have compared the US government to Hitler... logical fallacy, rude and pathetic.

Go care about your own government first, before you start lecturing others. **** you.

America has lost any credibility whatsoever lecturing others on freedom and democracy and Western values post Patriot Act and 9/11.

Germany was one of the USA's biggest supporters in the M.E. wars post 9-11. That piss you off?

...and unless somebody is "perfect" they have no room to comment on problems elsewhere? Ridiculous.

 

[Andalublue]

You know who else tore families apart for failing to "tow the government line?" The Nazis.

Just sayin...

Goodwin alert! You automatically lose the debate.

Just sayin'.

 

[Andalublue]

That's twice you have compared the US government to Hitler... logical fallacy, rude and pathetic.

No, he didn't. Where? He said that USA has no right to lecture other Western democracies on infringements on basic freedoms. It's Gathomas and cpwill who are comparing Germany under Merkel to Germany under Hitler. GG is pointing out that the USA has some gaping holes when it comes to respect for individual rights and liberties. How making that point is comparing the USA to the Third Reich is a ridiculous stretch. See above, and the quotation from Gathomas I've used.... now there is a Nazi comparison. See the difference?

 

[Sanddune]

Goodwin alert! You automatically lose the debate.

Just sayin'.

It's not just Goodwin actually, it's the "Oh those Germans are really nazis after all and Germany hasn't really changed in the last 70 years" theme. A popular theme among conservative American europhobes. Finding ways to link issues about Germany to the nazis even though that link isn't really there has even developped into a form of art.

 

[Gathomas88]

Goodwin alert! You automatically lose the debate.

Just sayin'.

It was something the Third Reich was actually quite fond of doing. Considering the fact that this is Germany we're talking about here, and that Germanyguy actually started us down this line of conversation in the first place, I fail to see how the comparison was uncalled for.

Removing children from their families is an inherently totalitarian tactic. You can spin things however else you want. It is not going to change this fact.

 

[Andalublue]

It was something the Third Reich was actually quite fond of doing. Considering the fact that this is Germany we're talking about here, and that Germanyguy actually started us down this line of conversation in the first place, I fail to see how the comparison was uncalled for.

Removing children from their families is an inherently totalitarian tactic. You can spin things however else you want. It is not going to change this fact.

Problem is, the article in the OP just takes the parents' part entirely. It doesn't bother to quote any voice from the authorities. It makes numerous assumptions that are polemical at best, like the idea that public schools inevitably engage in indoctrination. It's full of passages like this:

The children were taken to unknown locations,” HSLDA said. “Officials ominously promised the parents that they would not be seeing their children anytime soon.”

The raid, which took place Thursday at 8 a.m. as the children were beginning their day’s classes, has been described by observers as “brutal and vicious.

It's laughable journalism presenting a story from the point of view of just one side. It's as if it was a reproduced press release from this HSLDA thing. It's all hearsay and clearly biased totally in favour of home-schooling. Word: not everyone thinks home-schooling is a good idea and they are not Nazis for thinking so.

 

[American]

To use clear words:

After your 9/11 violations of the most basic Western values and constitutional values, Americans are in a pretty bad situation to lecture Germans about freedom. Do us all a favor, and shut the **** up.

Until you no longer allow the executive to be above the law and constitution, by allowing it to be accuser, judge and hankerman in the same person. Shut the **** up lecturing other people about basic standards of Western civilization. You break them all the time.

Thanks to our public education, every German pupil knows such policies are worth of Hitler and the likes, but not of a free, democratic republic.

I see you get Likes from such people as PeteEU, who constantly judges American politics within its own borders, but also apparently agrees with you here that countries should mind their own business. Hypocrisy! Many of us are unhappy with recent US govt policies, but it's rather difficult to change. Nevertheless, the state confiscation of children over educational choice disturbs us.

 

[Andalublue]

I see you get Likes from such people as PeteEU, who constantly judges American politics within its own borders

You're judging GG's argument on the basis of one person who liked one of his posts? Whom you don't like? Weak sauce American. Why not debate the subject rather than making ad hominem attacks on GG because you don't like PeteEU? Why not start by explaining why choosing home-schooling should be an inalienable right for parents?

 

[Sanddune]

It was something the Third Reich was actually quite fond of doing. Considering the fact that this is Germany we're talking about here, and that Germanyguy actually started us down this line of conversation in the first place, I fail to see how the comparison was uncalled for.

Removing children from their families is an inherently totalitarian tactic. You can spin things however else you want. It is not going to change this fact.

No, it is a totalitarian nazi policy, it is enforcing a law which requires kids to go to school. As you have indirectly admitted, you would not have seen anything nazi-like in it if it weren't about Germany. That speaks volumes about your double standards, your ignorance and your bigotry.

 

[Gardener]

Abuse is perhaps one of the only reasons through which the State can justly abduct kids.

Define "abuse"?

When stupid evangelical Americans hire quacks to try to change the sexual orientation of their children isn't that abusive, even if the children are not beaten?

If Islamists brainwash their children into becoming walking bombs, is that not abusive, even if the parents have not beaten their kids?

If Neo Nazis program their children into such clearly antisocial behavior that they stand little chance of functioning in society and present a clear danger to others, is that not abusive?

All this prattle about "state" indoctrination in this thread, but what about the indoctrination of children by their parents? The notion that parents have absolute rights to abuse their children emotionally and psychologically doesn't cut it with me. I'd like to know more about his particular case before saying what I think about it specifically, but I do not not agree that parental rights are absolute.

 

[Gardener]

No, it is a totalitarian nazi policy, it is enforcing a law which requires kids to go to school. As you have indirectly admitted, you would not have seen anything nazi-like in it if it weren't about Germany. That speaks volumes about your double standards, your ignorance and your bigotry.

Not to mention that this so-called "school indoctrination" is actually geared towards the prevention of Nazi-like attitudes.

 

[Sanddune]

Not to mention that this so-called "school indoctrination" is actually geared towards the prevention of Nazi-like attitudes.

Oh, I'm sure Gasthomas would call that totalitarian indoctrination as well. You might have noticed some of those dorky Americans here in Germany who are like "Oh my God! The Germans are normal people! I didn't know that! I thought this would be some sort of gloomy nazi ****hole!" Gasthomas is just like one of those but before coming to Germany.

 

[Andalublue]

I don't actually agree with a blanket ban on home-schooling in many countries, although I understand the arguments from both sides. With this case however, I think there's more to it than we are being told. I've been searching around for articles about it but the only things that come up are all from sources with a clear pro-homeschooling bias or which only quotes any opinions from one side of the issue.

I've got no basis on which to judge this particular case, and I can't see how anyone else can.

 

[Sanddune]

I don't actually agree with a blanket ban on home-schooling in many countries, although I understand the arguments from both sides. With this case however, I think there's more to it than we are being told. I've been searching around for articles about it but the only things that come up are all from sources with a clear pro-homeschooling bias or which only quotes any opinions from one side of the issue.

I've got no basis on which to judge this particular case, and I can't see how anyone else can.

Just looked at several German newspaper articles about the case. The parents (Christian fundamentalists) had refused to send their kids to school for several years, even a Christian private school was not acceptable to them. According to the state authority, the kids do not have a level of education appropriate for their age. The conduct of the police sounded rough and traumatizing from the dad's perspective, the guy from the state authority said that no violence was used (probably depends if making someone sit down is "violence"). And if the parents agree to send their kids to school they'll get the kids back.

There is another case of homeschoolers in Bavaria where a religious group agreed with the school authority on a curriculum. And there is a case of homeschoolers in central Germany where the parents were fined every few years but the kids were never taken away, one of the kids actually did very well in a final school examination. It seems as if the authorities generally try to avoid taking kids out of their families

Should it be banned? There's a discussion going in the opposite direction in Germany. With a large number of 3rd generation immigrants living mostly outside of mainstream German society, some of them struggling to speak German, people are discussing a mandatory pre-school year to improve integration and improve the chances of kids from households with a lower education level. I actually agree with that idea, but of course it's pretty anti-homeschooling. I think school gives kids a certain chance to develop independantly from their parents and find their own way in life, it may give them a certain freedom. So from what I know now, I'd favor having all kids at school. Then again, we have quite a few countries that allow homeschooling around us, so if it works out well in Austria or France, if it doesn't cause any problem for the kids and society at large, I'm open to other perspectives as well.

 

[Manc Skipper]

It's not about home-schooling. There's a surprise! It is about whackjob Christianists though.

" Forty children have been taken from a Christian sect in Bavaria, southern Germany, following police raids at a monastery and a farm after accusations of child abuse.

The children, aged between seven months and 17 years old, are members of the Twelve Tribes sect, which has its roots in the US. They have been placed with foster families while the group is being investigated.

The group, whose teachings are based on the Old and New Testament, is known to believe in corporal punishment. It had been under observation by authorities for some time, particularly for its refusal to send its children to school.

Teaching licences were recently withdrawn from the sect's own school near the town of Deiningen, near Augsburg, with inspectors declaring its teachers unfit.

The sect's two complexes were sealed off on Friday as officials explained that Thursday's dawn raids, carried out over three and a half hours by 100 police officers, were prompted by "fresh evidence indicating significant and ongoing child abuse by the members". ..."

Children removed from Christian sect after German police raids | World news | theguardian.com

Corporal punishment of children is completely forbidden in Germany.

 

[Manc Skipper]

" The little blonde-haired boy is about four years old. He simpers as a middle aged woman drags him downstairs into a dimly-lit cellar and orders the child to bend over and touch the stone floor with his hands. Another little boy watches as the woman pulls down the first boy’s pants and then draws out a willow cane.

“Say you are tired!” commands the woman in an emotionless voice. The swoosh of the willow cane is audible as it strikes the screaming child’s bottom three times. The little boy refuses to say he is tired so he is hit again and again – a total of ten times – until, in floods of tears, he finally says “I am tired.”

Within the space of a few hours, six adults are filmed in the cellar and in an underground school central heating room beating six children with a total of 83 strokes of the cane. The graphic and disturbing scenes were shown on Germany’s RTL television channel last night... "

In Germany's Twelve Tribes sect, cameras catch

 

[paris]

Corporal punishment of children is completely forbidden in Germany.

What, corporal punishment of children is verbotten? What a bunch of Nazis!

 

[Leo]

What, corporal punishment of children is verbotten? What a bunch of Nazis!

Was ist dieser wort 'verbotten'? Es ist verboten!

Corporal punishment should be verboten in every civilised society on earth.