German Police Storm Homeschoolers' homes, Seize Children by Force

[ChezC3]

 

[shrubnose]

We're a bit tougher on anti-constitutional nuts such as neo-Nazis, you're a bit tougher, no wait, not just "a bit", buch *much more* on islamists. Both are enemies of freedom. Where's your problem?

Because I bet, 99% of the people who don't want to send their children to school in Germany are either neo-Nazis or dogmatic Marxists (or islamists). Because our public schools do not indoctrinate at all. If one school was ever found guilty of doing that, it would be dead. All they do is teaching the constitutional values. Those who disagree with that .

.. you know who they are.

How do we know that?

Who told us?

For some reason I never got the message.

 

[cpwill]

yeh they learned social skills because they were put to work at a young age they didnt stay at home....:roll:

Because, as is well known, the entirety of Human History exists within a subset of the workforce during the process of industrialization :roll:

 

[ChezC3]

The level of discrimination homeschoolers face and the blatant lies and ignorance regarding homeschooling is astounding...

I was homeschooled, I had a social life and was not negatively impacted by being homeschooled, I studied hard and got focused attention by a teacher I knew that loved me and truly desired to see me succeed. My parents made sacrifices financially to homeschool me and I received a quality education. I was well prepared for college life, scored well on the ACT, scored well on benchmark exams to track progress. and went to university on an academic scholarship that I retained during my 4 years of undergrad. My parents registered with what is called an "umbrella school" from which I received my diploma and I followed an approved curriculum and had to meet the required credits to graduate like any other student.

What I see is people typically projecting their hatred for conservatives or Christian families since many families that homeschool tend to be more conservative and Christian. They don't like that some kids are raised outside of an institutional schooling system and that parents may impart their beliefs upon their children and raise them according to what they believe is right and true (shocking really, isn't it?). If you are going to disagree or have a problem with homeschooling at least be rational, don't spew the ignorance of "they have no social lives" and "fundie extremist parents are hurting their kids" or any of the other mantra that gets pushed. My heart goes out to the families in Germany being discriminated against and violated over them choosing to homeschool.

I agree. My cousin home schooled all 3 of his children. One is still in the process the other two graduates from University of Chicago undergrad and currently working on his PHD at the same and the other Columbia University undergrad and working on her PHD from the same.

All three very well adjusted all with many friends...

 

[cpwill]

I grew up in the United States at a time considerably before yours, and before the whole "homeschooling" craze. We ALL went to school, and those who didn't were considered truant.

Just because you seize upon some over the top hyperbole to describe such a process, that does not mean we lived in some sort of totalitarian state in this country in the 50s and 60s, only that you are trying to elicit an emotional response through the use of bloated rhetoric.

We did not "belong to the state". We simply went to school, and those of us who actually benefitted from such public education would laugh at the idea that our participation reflected on some sort of imagined totalitarianism.

You are mistaking "provision" for "mandate". It's the difference between "I joined the Army" and "I was drafted".

 

[DDD]

The problem with such an assumption is it is absolute, and includes an "education" in any manner of areas that cross the line so much greater than any "indoctrination" the state might perform that it enters into the territory of sedition while posing a clear danger to the greater society. Where that line might be drawn is certainly open to debate, but when you make parental rights absolute, you sanction cult-like behavior that can leads to mayhem. As has been brought up already in this thread, to sanction the sort of indoctrination that turns children into terrorists is the price you pay for such absolutist thinking.

I really have no knowledge of this particular case, and don't know what these parents have been teaching their children. Perhaps you do, but I would rather have limits on home schooling than no limits whatsoever. Perhaps Germany places too many restrictions, but I would prefer that to none at all. Anarchy serves no one.

Except Italians maybe:

Anarchism in Italy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps what Deutchland may be avoiding with these measures?

 

[Captain Adverse]

"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."

Ah, Germany. Where not turning your children over to the State is Not Allowed.

Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.

To use clear words:

After your 9/11 violations of the most basic Western values and constitutional values, Americans are in a pretty bad situation to lecture Germans about freedom. Do us all a favor, and shut the **** up.

Until you no longer allow the executive to be above the law and constitution, by allowing it to be accuser, judge and hankerman in the same person. Shut the **** up lecturing other people about basic standards of Western civilization. You break them all the time.

Thanks to our public education, every German pupil knows such policies are worth of Hitler and the likes, but not of a free, democratic republic.

All I can say to both sides is two wrongs don’t make either side right.

In the first place German guy is right about our violations of civil and Constitutional rights through the simple expedient of labeling a person a terrorist. With that one word we contravene our ideals of a person’s innocence until proven guilty. Instead, we presume automatic guilt and treat the suspect as if he has already been convicted.

Beyond that we use our fears to condone secret spying not only on ourselves, but on citizens of our allies and friends. So he is correct in that we stand on no moral high ground when we point fingers.

Having said that, German guy is wrong by asserting that because we exhibit such faults this somehow negates the fault exemplified by his government’s action. In a free society, people have a right to disagree, to control their own lives, even to hate as long as their hate remains internal and does turn into public acts of violence or discrimination.

If a parent is willing to follow proper guidelines in educating their own children, and validate annually that standards are being met, why can’t they teach their children at home? Does the German government have a right to act as “thought police” too?

If I had authority in the German government I would allow home schooling using the examples of nations where it works; and to prevent issues of “indoctrination” into fascist or other ideologies, have the children go through periodic counseling session to see if they are being subjected to such. Then and ONLY then would I have child protective services remove them from the custody of their parents for their own safety.

 

[Arcana XV]

The problem with such an assumption is it is absolute, and includes an "education" in any manner of areas that cross the line so much greater than any "indoctrination" the state might perform that it enters into the territory of sedition while posing a clear danger to the greater society. Where that line might be drawn is certainly open to debate, but when you make parental rights absolute, you sanction cult-like behavior that can leads to mayhem. As has been brought up already in this thread, to sanction the sort of indoctrination that turns children into terrorists is the price you pay for such absolutist thinking.

I was talking about an academic education. Parents should absolutely have the right to choose how their children will receive that education. If they have the patience and the qualifications to provide that education at home the state has no business getting involved other than to make sure that homeschooled kids' academic level is on par with their peers in the public or private schools.

I really have no knowledge of this particular case, and don't know what these parents have been teaching their children. Perhaps you do, but I would rather have limits on home schooling than no limits whatsoever. Perhaps Germany places too many restrictions, but I would prefer that to none at all. Anarchy serves no one.

Limits, yes. Making it illegal and breaking up families over it? Too far and absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Leo]

Excellent job of proving my point for me. A moral judgement has been made on a non-moral issue, and one that the schools have no business teaching. It is not my moral obligation to save aluminum cans. I certainly can, if I so desire, and yes, I can get paid for them, but I throw them away, and if someone wants to dig through my garbage to retrieve them, then so be it.

With respect Lizzie (and I think you know I have a great deal of genuine respect for you,) you are reacting to something that was not said either by the teacher, or by any poster here. The teacher quite correctly advised the child that it was not good social practice to throw away tin cans. She did not say your mother or grandmother is morally bankrupt if she throws away said cans. She might as easily have said that it is bad for your health to smoke, and it is bad for society in general to be subjected to second hand smoke. That is not the same thing as saying people who smoke are weak and evil people who deliberately harm society. No moral judgments were being made, just common sense suggestions.

I am surprised at the depth of feeling, and the personal attacks, being made in the course of this thread. That the majority of the rest of the developed world does not think like conservative Americans comes as no great surprise to me. A discussion thereof should not be the reason for personal invective (not that I am suggesting you would do that, but others have), after all - Autres temps, autres mœurs and all that.

 

[Leo]

But is there evidence that that was the case here?

Not that I know of, but your rhetorical question implied that there could not possibly be an advantage from removing the children from a particular environment. I was merely saying that I could think of a number of hypothetical situations where removal might prove advantageous.

I'm not personally in favour of homeschooling, but as long as they're receiving the same education as everyone else, why does it matter where the education occurs?

TBH, I have not given the matter a lot of careful thought, nor have I researched it sufficiently to completely make up my mind. But I think those who are strongly opposed to it, and they include the educational authorities in a number of developed societies, are concerned about aspects other than the ability to pass the requisite exams. Because perhaps the majority of people home schooling their children tend to be conservative and religious, I suspect the fear of religious indoctrination (not leavened by contact with people who do not share those beliefs) which often works in opposition to empirical science, is the main concern. Whether this is borne out by experience - I have no way of knowing.

 

[Higgins86]

Because, as is well known, the entirety of Human History exists within a subset of the workforce during the process of industrialization :roll:

That isn't what I said at all. Your claiming that school isn't important for learning social skills based on the fact for the majority of human history education has not been mandatory, I pointed out that this isn't a valid point because kids and young adults were expected to provide early and often left the house at a young age. They certainty were not cuddled up with mummy or daddy learning their ABC's until they were 18.

 

[cpwill]

That isn't what I said at all. Your claiming that school isn't important for learning social skills based on the fact for the majority of human history education has not been mandatory

I claim that the argument that kids require government schooling to develop social skills is disproven by the fact that the wide majority of humanity did not receive their social skills in that manner.

I pointed out that this isn't a valid point because kids and young adults were expected to provide early and often left the house at a young age. They certainty were not cuddled up with mummy or daddy learning their ABC's until they were 18.

Certainly not - but they were until they were teenagers, and then they typically stayed within the family group until they died. However, the specific age at which they were considered adults is immaterial, as we are discussing socialization, not household formation.

That being said, homeschooled kids, in fact demonstrate equal or superior socialization to those who have been through the State factories. Because families are better at successfully socializing children than government employees.

 

[Gardener]

I was talking about an academic education. Parents should absolutely have the right to choose how their children will receive that education. If they have the patience and the qualifications to provide that education at home the state has no business getting involved other than to make sure that homeschooled kids' academic level is on par with their peers in the public or private schools.

Was it the academic nature of the education that was in question here? Were the parents attempting to teach their children particle physics here? With all the potential targets of such action, why were these parents selected? Were they the only ones in Germany whose children were not in public schools, or is there more to this story than we know?

Limits, yes. Making it illegal and breaking up families over it? Too far and absolutely unacceptable.

Like I said, my personal preference would be for sensible limits, but given the choice between outlawing homeschooling and having either no limits or so few that cult-like behavior was sanctioned, I would choose the former. The whole problem here is oversight, and the sheer amount of a bureaucracy one must create to create these limits and then actually ensure they are followed is enormous. Perhaps Germany simply does not believe such a bloated bureaucracy is worth the cost of creating a workable system, so has opted for expediency.

Would YOU support homeschools teaching Neo Nazi philosophy, violent Jihad, or bizarre cult beliefs, and if not, how would you go about ensuring this does not occur? Sure, the kids are going to get a big dose of the stuff from their crazy parents anyway, but at least public education ensures they receive an alternative. Balkanizing society by allowing anybody to teach anything will only result in strife as sub groups develop with conflicting agendas. It is simply not part of human nature for people to get along with those whose own beliefs are so contrary in nature as to make cooperation impossible. You have to have SOMETHING upon which people can agree in order for society to function.

 

[the_recruit]

Okay, as a simple one, my granddaughters were over here visiting one day, and the oldest informed me that "You shouldn't be throwing your soda cans away. My teacher says that's bad for the environment", to which I replied, "Well, when you grow up and pay your own way, then you can decide what you want to do, and how you want to live, but I will live my life my own way". (little lessons in libertarianism )

A teacher at your school actually had the audacity to teach your children about recycling??!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

You need to remove your granddaughters from this evil institution immediately before the teachers brainwash them further with other extremist ideas like "sharing" or "cleaning up after themselves"!

 

[lizzie]

A teacher at your school actually had the audacity to teach your children about recycling??!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!

You need to remove your granddaughters from this evil institution immediately before the teachers brainwash them further with other extremist ideas like "sharing" or "cleaning up after themselves"!

It's not the teaching that object to. It's the moral judgement applied to it. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to comprehend.

 

[clownboy]

Send your kids to school, meaning follow the law in this case, and at night teach them what you want them to know. If they reject it, it's because it's probably crap.

It figures you'd be okay with this.

 

[the_recruit]

It's not the teaching that object to. It's the moral judgement applied to it. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to comprehend.

Not only did they teach your grandkids about recycling, they also taught them that recycling is a good thing????!!! My God, it's even worse than I imagined! Get your kids out of there stat!

 

[TiredOfLife]

It figures you'd be okay with this.

Sure. Society has needs as well.

 

[Sanddune]

God forbid that Homeschoolers fail to be indoctrinated with the "approved" curriculum necessary to turn them into the cookie-cutter nanny state drones government requires.

Think of the children for Heaven's sake! :roll:

The requirement for children to go to schools serves the following purposes:

1) All children should learn German properly (important to allow children of immigrants to lead successful lives in Germany)
2) Children should get an idea of the chances they can have in life, even if they come from very restrictive households (especially important for girls from muslim or christian fundamentalist families)
3) At schools, children learn social interaction and getting along with other kids they would otherwise not meet.

I agree with all three of those points. You may disagree. However, what your comment shows is that you have absolutely no idea what is going on in Germany. The German police is not a jackbooted nazi secret police force that tortures people, and German schools are not places of indoctrination where independent thought is stifled and a state ideology is hammered into the kids. Your idea about the state indoctrinating children to become, as you say,

cookie-cutter nanny state drones

is an absolutely ridiculous fantasy.

Having been educated in the German school system, and having seen schools in other countries (France, UK, Norway) on exchange programs, my experience has taught me that in German schools, there are more classroom discussions on current political issues and a greater emphasis on critical and independent thinking than in the other countries I saw as a student. This observation was confirmed by dozens of exchange students from all over the world that routinely attended classes together with us locals.

It is absolutely okay if you know nothing about Germany. And it is absolutely okay if you are not interested in Germany. But then, don't make judgements based on the silliest and most outdated of stereotypes. While it is possible to discuss the pros and cons of allowing homeschooling, and while you certainly could make a valid point for allowing homschooling, it is more than ridiculous to suggest that a requirement for kids to go to schools (and if people don't like state schools, there are plenty of private school options to choose from) is in any way undemocratic or totalitarian, like for example...

To use clear words:

After your 9/11 violations of the most basic Western values and constitutional values, Americans are in a pretty bad situation to lecture Germans about freedom. Do us all a favor, and shut the **** up.

Until you no longer allow the executive to be above the law and constitution, by allowing it to be accuser, judge and hankerman in the same person. Shut the **** up lecturing other people about basic standards of Western civilization. You break them all the time.

Thanks to our public education, every German pupil knows such policies are worth of Hitler and the likes, but not of a free, democratic republic.

... the very unfashionable orange clothing of the Guantanamo prisoners which, as I heard to my great dismay, those poor people are required to wear.

However, Gasthomas88, if you were not actually serious about the stuff you wrote but simply taking part in a competition to find the most ridiculous justifications for the idea of "those Germans are still nazis after all", you have done quite well but I think I can still beat you, with the following suggestion:

Put on a Hitler moustache, read GermanGuy's comment with a fake Hitler voice, and dismiss it by remembering that Hitler himself also made very scathing remarks about the moral hypocrisy of the American imperialists. Then drink a glass of the heavenly Budweiser (if you consider alcohol to be an evil thing coke will do) and sing "God Bless America". Have some American hot dogs (originally from Germany and called Frankfurters until WW1) with American freedom fries (originally from Belgium and used to be called "French fries" until the French refused to bomb Iraq together with Dubya), be the hero you truly are and smugly think to yourself that those Germans will never really have a sense for what you feel at that moment.

Sorry for the Dolchstoß, GermanGuy

 

[CRUE CAB]

Wait, I thought there were all kinds of places that are way more free than us.
I know I was told that on here just yesterday or today. Gee........

 

[Ikari]

Yeah, they should be taught that that the US practize of giving the executive the power to kidnap people at random, deny them fair trials and detain them indefinitely, is not just a thing Hitler did, but a common practize of the US government ... who could possibly agree that German pupils should be indoctrinated with this critical attitude towards totalitarianism.

While there is much to rally against in terms of US Government power, and it should be proper to understand the tyrannical overreaching the US government enjoys these days; it does not distract from the case at hand. Your government just stole some people's kids cause they didn't like what the parents were doing. Two wrongs do not make a right and the fact that America has slipped well from its Republic and is no longer the shining city on the hill does not mean it's ok to steal people's kids.

 

[Ikari]

Problem is, that in the German education system you can only sit the state examinations if you are in the German education system.. and a home schooled aint.

Plus school is far more than just learning from books, it is also learning how to be around people and so on.. and home schooled children do not have that learning and that means they will be more of a social outcast when they grow up.

Nerds are social outcasts, even when we grow up, and the vast majority of us went to public school. Public school ain't got a lock on social learning.

 

[Sanddune]

While there is much to rally against in terms of US Government power, and it should be proper to understand the tyrannical overreaching the US government enjoys these days; it does not distract from the case at hand. Your government just stole some people's kids cause they didn't like what the parents were doing. Two wrongs do not make a right and the fact that America has slipped well from its Republic and is no longer the shining city on the hill does not mean it's ok to steal people's kids.

I understand your point about not distracting from the issues at hand. Then again, much of this thread was not really a balanced discussion on whether or not homeschooling should be allowed, but some rather self-righteous rants on how evil and totalitarian Germany is for enforcing school attendance. Personally, I think in Germany it is justified to have laws requiring kids to go to school (see my last comment). And if there is such a law, it has to be enforced. Whether or not the police behaved appropriately during the raid is another question.

Now I have nothing against Americans or anyone else disagreeing with that view, and I actually find it an interesting discussion. But if Americans (not you but others on this thread) talk about this German policy as if it were about forms of post-Nazi cruelty and inhumanity, which are unknown in the United States, it does seem a bit hypocritical. In the US, you get jobless former middle class families living in trailer parks and instead of giving them the social benefit they need, the authorities sometimes actually take their children away and give them to other families when they think their parent's don't have the money to care for them. With this sort of thing happening at your doorstep, you can still criticize what Germany is doing on homeschooling but using it as a reason to portray Germany as a somewhat evil totalitarian country with the nazis never far away is clearly out of place.

 

[Ikari]

I understand your point about not distracting from the issues at hand. Then again, much of this thread was not really a balanced discussion on whether or not homeschooling should be allowed, but some rather self-righteous rants on how evil and totalitarian Germany is for enforcing school attendance. Personally, I think in Germany it is justified to have laws requiring kids to go to school (see my last comment). And if there is such a law, it has to be enforced. Whether or not the police behaved appropriately during the raid is another question.

Now I have nothing against Americans or anyone else disagreeing with that view, and I actually find it an interesting discussion. But if Americans (not you but others on this thread) talk about this German policy as if it were about forms of post-Nazi cruelty and inhumanity, which are unknown in the United States, it does seem a bit hypocritical. In the US, you get jobless former middle class families living in trailer parks and instead of giving them the social benefit they need, the authorities sometimes actually take their children away and give them to other families when they think their parent's don't have the money to care for them. With this sort of thing happening at your doorstep, you can still criticize what Germany is doing on homeschooling but using it as a reason to portray Germany as a somewhat evil totalitarian country with the nazis never far away is clearly out of place.

It's not about the United States and it's descent into tyranny and fascism though. While that is happening, governments cannot just steal people's kids. You may say it's reasonable to have a law about school attendance, OK....but that doesn't mean you get to steal kids. Makes your government look like the witch from Hansel and Gretel.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Nerds are social outcasts, even when we grow up, and the vast majority of us went to public school. Public school ain't got a lock on social learning.

Ehh, Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. Nerds to the enth degree. Social outcasts? Mmmm...not really.