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German Police Storm Homeschoolers' homes, Seize Children by Force

It is easy to elicit the result one wants by seizing upon language, but if any "indoctrination" was involved, why don't people ask what, exactly is being "indoctrinated" in German schools? Considering Germany's past, the desire to prevent a repeat of such runs strong, and so if that is the "indoctrination" being rejected by this advocacy group, I wonder why they think this is such a bad thing?

Creating such negative aspersions to a process with a noble cause while attempting to make as victims those who reject such is not exactly going to gain MY sympathy.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

One cannot discredit totalitarianism through totalitarian means and then claim to possess any degree of "nobility."

Frankly, why should be it be government's place to "indoctrinate" the population at all? Teaching people from birth onwards to trust and honor the power of the state above all else was a big part of what got Germany into trouble in the first place.
 
. The argument that children belong primarily to the state is absolutely a totalitarian precept.

I grew up in the United States at a time considerably before yours, and before the whole "homeschooling" craze. We ALL went to school, and those who didn't were considered truant.

Just because you seize upon some over the top hyperbole to describe such a process, that does not mean we lived in some sort of totalitarian state in this country in the 50s and 60s, only that you are trying to elicit an emotional response through the use of bloated rhetoric.

We did not "belong to the state". We simply went to school, and those of us who actually benefitted from such public education would laugh at the idea that our participation reflected on some sort of imagined totalitarianism.
 
I grew up in the United States at a time considerably before yours, and before the whole "homeschooling" craze. We ALL went to school, and those who didn't were considered truant.

Just because you seize upon some over the top hyperbole to describe such a process, that does not mean we lived in some sort of totalitarian state in this country in the 50s and 60s, only that you are trying to elicit an emotional response through the use of bloated rhetoric.

We did not "belong to the state". We simply went to school, and those of us who actually benefitted from such public education would laugh at the idea that our participation reflected on some sort of imagined totalitarianism.

J. Edgar Hoover, Joseph McCarthy, the draft, and our early twentieth century eugenics programs all say "hi." :2wave:

The United States of the early to mid twentieth century was, in many regards, frighteningly totalitarian in comparison today.
 
Who gives you, or anyone else, the right to make that call?

So you dont think it is anyones problem that anti-social potential problematic people are being created by bat crazy parents? So when some wacko kid goes and shoots up a school because his bat crazy mother taught him at home that guns are good, and the government is out to get you.. then it is not our problem?

Are the children in question going to suffer any objective harm if they happen to believe in God or maintain a certain degree of skepticism regarding an abstract scientific theory which plays no role whatsoever in the daily affairs of most people?

Yes they are. They will be way behind other children/young people when they finally are allowed into higher education. Believing that God created everything is not something that will get you far in the real world.. well unless you join one of those bat crazy wanna be Christian colleges the American right love to promote.

Virtually every aspect of the arguments being put forward against Homeschooling in this thread are hilariously dogmatic and totalitarian. What you people are basically saying here is that everyone should embrace your particular worldview, or be bullied into doing so by power of the state.

No. What it means is that children should be allowed to choose themselves what they believe. In no way does public education anywhere in the western world advocate "the state" and all the other crazy right wing conspiracy theories that the US right / home school wackos think they do. I have been educated by Danish, American and English education systems, and none of them indoctrinated me in anyway and they all drove me to think for myself and seek out the truth.

Fact is that in most education systems, there are checks and balances in place to prevent political meddling in what is taught... well except in Texas where the right are attempting to brainwash the children of Texas.. and are sadly succeeding.

Would you support the same tactics if it were Nazi Germany, Cromwell's English Commonwealth, the Taliban, or Francoist Spain setting the standards for what are or are not "acceptable" ideas and behavior?

No, but that is not what the German school system or any other western school system does. In fact the only ones that do such things are some home schoolers and the religious wacko schools (both Christian and Muslim) and systems that allow political meddling in what is taught... yes thats Texas again. That is why I am against them and any attempts by anyone to mess with the basic education system for political reasons. If a teacher starts indoctrinating anyone, fire the bastard on the spot...The job of the school system is to learn our children the basics.. read, write, maths and other skills that make it possible for them to go to university or join some sort of trade.

Hypocrites like yourself would cry and scream to the heavens about the violations of human rights being perpetrated in those countries, and demand that all of their leaders be lynched.

I am a hypocrite for want to make sure that all children have an education that is as bias free as possible so they can make up their own minds when they grow up? Oh how undemocratic of me...

Because indoctrination is only okay when the government does it, and only when it happens to be directed towards a goal that the political Left happens to agree with, amirite? :roll:

There is NO indoctrination in the schooling system of Germany or anywhere in Europe.. hell not even in the US (minus the religious right schools and red states). It is a myth brought on by an American religious right wing that does not like that their brand of bias and discrimination is not being taught to future generations. And yes that is the core of the problem.... politicizing the education system to "form" the future .. it is what Hitler and other dictators did, and it is what certain right wingers are trying to do.. and they must be stopped.

I'm frankly glad that I never experienced the "socialization" enforced by the public educational system.

Have you seen how the people in my generation behave?

Depends on what generation we are talking about.. And schooling is only one of the bits (and a minor one at that) that result in how a generation behaves. In fact it is more than often a lack of education that is the problem... teen pregnancy is a good example.

If being Homeschooled means that children are kept away from the idiocy of today's youth culture, and all of the problems it inevitably leads to (drugs, underage drinking, STDs, teenage pregnancy, counter-productive rebellious attitudes, group think, etca), I would frankly view that as being a point in the practice's favor.

That is the US, not Germany or most places in Europe. Teenage pregnancy is low in most European countries, thanks to early education and easy access to contraception and not having a weird relationship to the human body. Only the UK has a major problem with drinking, but that is rather unique to the UK. Yes kids drink at under age 18... deal with it,.. they also have sex.... that has happened since the dawn of time. They want to grow up. As for drugs.. yea it is a problem, but hiding the truth and telling them it is illegal will only make it more interesting.. or have you forgotten how it was as a teenager? As for counter-productive rebellious attitudes... hellllllo its called being a teenager! And shock and horror .. people are allowed to think for themselves?
 
We did not "belong to the state". We simply went to school, and those of us who actually benefitted from such public education would laugh at the idea that our participation reflected on some sort of imagined totalitarianism.
That is true, but otoh, when you and I were in school, we were taught how to think, how to read, how to spell, and how to perform mathematical functions, history, science, and geography. We weren't told how to feel, what to believe, how to view the world, that we should be "green", or that the individual "should" do any of a number of things. Personal character development was generally left to parents and/or churches. We were in school to learn how to interact and succeed in the world. I can see with my two granddaughters, that they are being instilled with social values in the public schools that children in our time would never have had pushed by a public institution, and imo, should not be pushed. If I were having children today, they would either be in a private school, or homeschooled.
 
TI can see with my two granddaughters, that they are being instilled with social values in the public schools that children in our time would never have had pushed by a public institution, and imo, should not be pushed. If I were having children today, they would either be in a private school, or homeschooled.

Okay what social values ? I am curious..
 
Okay what social values ? I am curious..

How they should perceive the world around them, and that thinking "x thought" is wrong, and that thinking "y thought" is right. They have moved away from strictly education and into the realm of shaping children ideologically. I have an issue with this, as it is the responsibility of parents to instill moral values in their children, and not that of any public institution. I have no issue with presentation of facts, but I don't want the moral interpretation of any teacher influencing learning.
 
Yeah, Germans and Americans have different ideas of what makes "big government".

In America, it's the state requiring pupils to go to school. In Germany, it's extralegal detention and denial of fair trials for mere suspects, or interventions illegal by international law. Or the CIA or NSA logging the mails of all German citizens.

Go figure. These damn totalitarian Germans.

GermanGuy,I get that it's annoying when your country is being criticized and that the first instinct is to defend it, but some things truly are indefensible. No matter what equal or worse practices go on in the US, it doesn't mean that Germany's policy on homeschooling gets a pass. This policy that makes homeschooling your own children illegal means that the state basically owns their minds. It implies that no other system of academic education is valid except the state's. This is wrong on so many levels, I can't believe that such an intelligent person such as yourself would actually think it makes sense.

There is no evidence whatsoever in this specific case that points to these children being damaged in any way, least of all academically. So, if you have evidence that proves otherwise, something tangible that would justify shattering their family unit, I would love to see it. The state does have a responsibility to protect children from abuse or neglect. Are these children being abused and/or neglected? Are their academic levels significantly lower than their state-schooled peers?

Why not allow the practice of homeschooling and just require that these kids take a test every so often to get an idea on where they stand academically? Because, honestly, I really don't see how breaking up families can be seen as the better alternative.
 
So you dont think it is anyones problem that anti-social potential problematic people are being created by bat crazy parents?

I don't think that you are in any way qualified to decide what does or does not create such people one way or the other.

So when some wacko kid goes and shoots up a school because his bat crazy mother taught him at home that guns are good, and the government is out to get you.. then it is not our problem?

This only proves it.

Frankly, there are plenty of people that go through the public educational system only to become unproductive anti-social drains on society. I would actually say that it is far more common for this to happen with the results of the government system than homeschooling.

Yes they are. They will be way behind other children/young people when they finally are allowed into higher education. Believing that God created everything is not something that will get you far in the real world.. well unless you join one of those bat crazy wanna be Christian colleges the American right love to promote.

Nonsense. Unless a person is deliberately trying to get into a field like paleontology of biology (which is not the case in the vast, vast majority of cases), whether or not a person happens to believe in evolution is completely irrelevant to their future professional success or higher education.

It is an effective non-issue.

No. What it means is that children should be allowed to choose themselves what they believe.

By being indoctrinated only with what the state wants them believe?

Try again. :roll:

In no way does public education anywhere in the western world advocate "the state" and all the other crazy right wing conspiracy theories that the US right / home school wackos think they do.

You're advocating it right now! :lamo

It's hardly my fault that you are apparently too blinded by the very indoctrination we are currently discussing to see that fact.

Fact is that in most education systems, there are checks and balances in place to prevent political meddling in what is taught...

This is completely and totally false. Public education has been a blatant shill for the Left Wing agenda basically from square one.

I am a hypocrite for want to make sure that all children have an education that is as bias free as possible so they can make up their own minds when they grow up? Oh how undemocratic of me...

Only an utter fool would argue that public education is in any way free of bias. Your entire argument here is basically dripping with it.

"Homeschooling is evil because children might become religious or conservative. We have to make sure that they become secular and left leaning instead!"

There is NO indoctrination in the schooling system of Germany or anywhere in Europe.. hell not even in the US (minus the religious righ schools and red states).

The American public educational system teaches history from an explicitly liberal perspective, and, on an administrative basis, goes out of its way to teach liberal social philosophy and ideas.

How else do you explain such idiocy as expelling children from schools simply because they make vaguely gun related shapes with their fingers?

it is what Hitler and other dictators did, and it is what certain right wingers are trying to do.. and they must be stopped.

Yup, I can totally see how your views here can be seen to be "free of bias." :roll:

Orwell would have a field day with your arguments. Do you know that?

As for counter-productive rebellious attitudes... hellllllo its called being a teenager! And shock and horror .. people are allowed to think for themselves?

I skipped over that supposed "phase" of my life entirely, thank you very much.

"Teenage rebelliousness" is more a result of the degradation of the traditional family unit more than anything else. Children are basically taught to respect their peers more than their elders from pre-school onwards, and it shows in their behavior.
 
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I grew up in the United States at a time considerably before yours, and before the whole "homeschooling" craze. We ALL went to school, and those who didn't were considered truant.

Just because you seize upon some over the top hyperbole to describe such a process, that does not mean we lived in some sort of totalitarian state in this country in the 50s and 60s, only that you are trying to elicit an emotional response through the use of bloated rhetoric.

We did not "belong to the state". We simply went to school, and those of us who actually benefitted from such public education would laugh at the idea that our participation reflected on some sort of imagined totalitarianism.

I'm all for public education and the more kids who benefit from it the better. We all benefit in the end with a well educated population. However, this is not the point here. The point is that parents should have the freedom to choose what kind of education their children get. If we don't want any part of the public school system, we should be allowed to homeschool or send our kids to private schools. The instant this becomes illegal is when the state is effectively saying "We alone decide what your children should be taught and if you disagree we will take them from you/fine you/send you to jail". This is unacceptable. Surely you must see the difference.
 
How they should perceive the world around them, and that thinking "x thought" is wrong, and that thinking "y thought" is right. They have moved away from strictly education and into the realm of shaping children ideologically.
Give us an example please, because this can mean a lot of things.

I have an issue with this, as it is the responsibility of parents to instill moral values in their children, and not that of any public institution.

Define moral values...

I have no issue with presentation of facts, but I don't want the moral interpretation of any teacher influencing learning.

Okay, but that is exactly what happens at religious educational institutions.. And yes I agree, a teacher should teach, not push his/her beliefs on the children.
 
"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."

Ah, Germany. Where not turning your children over to the State is Not Allowed.



Everything within the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State.

We need to do this here. Homeschooling is a national disgrace.
 
That is the law as far as I know in anti-homes school countries.. so deal with it.



Not a big assumption...

You're right, we should stop debating drug laws, death penalties, firearm laws and everything else because the legislation has determined what is and what isn't correct.

And your assumption has little merit beyond your feelings. Lets see the data that home schooling harms social skills.
 
I'm all for public education and the more kids who benefit from it the better. We all benefit in the end with a well educated population. However, this is not the point here. The point is that parents should have the freedom to choose what kind of education their children get. If we don't want any part of the public school system, we should be allowed to homeschool or send our kids to private schools. The instant this becomes illegal is when the state is effectively saying "We alone decide what your children should be taught and if you disagree we will take them from you/fine you/send you to jail". This is unacceptable. Surely you must see the difference.

The devil is indeed in those details; the state, in this case, asserts that it alone will define what "well educated" means; one must attend its institutions, accept its point of view and if they are satisfied with your child's educational outcome then, and only then, will they pronounce them "well educated".
 
The level of discrimination homeschoolers face and the blatant lies and ignorance regarding homeschooling is astounding...

I was homeschooled, I had a social life and was not negatively impacted by being homeschooled, I studied hard and got focused attention by a teacher I knew that loved me and truly desired to see me succeed. My parents made sacrifices financially to homeschool me and I received a quality education. I was well prepared for college life, scored well on the ACT, scored well on benchmark exams to track progress. and went to university on an academic scholarship that I retained during my 4 years of undergrad. My parents registered with what is called an "umbrella school" from which I received my diploma and I followed an approved curriculum and had to meet the required credits to graduate like any other student.

What I see is people typically projecting their hatred for conservatives or Christian families since many families that homeschool tend to be more conservative and Christian. They don't like that some kids are raised outside of an institutional schooling system and that parents may impart their beliefs upon their children and raise them according to what they believe is right and true (shocking really, isn't it?). If you are going to disagree or have a problem with homeschooling at least be rational, don't spew the ignorance of "they have no social lives" and "fundie extremist parents are hurting their kids" or any of the other mantra that gets pushed. My heart goes out to the families in Germany being discriminated against and violated over them choosing to homeschool.
 
Give us an example please, because this can mean a lot of things.

Okay, as a simple one, my granddaughters were over here visiting one day, and the oldest informed me that "You shouldn't be throwing your soda cans away. My teacher says that's bad for the environment", to which I replied, "Well, when you grow up and pay your own way, then you can decide what you want to do, and how you want to live, but I will live my life my own way". (little lessons in libertarianism ;)).

Define moral values...

.

I'm a bit surprised that you don't already have a grasp on what moral values are. Please tell me you're kidding. Right? Wrong? Ring a bell? Belief systems?

Okay, but that is exactly what happens at religious educational institutions.. And yes I agree, a teacher should teach, not push his/her beliefs on the children.

I haven't seen evidence of what I am specifically referring to in the religious schools, and I do not want it in public education institutions. That being said, our religious private schools exceed the public schools in education. Around here, the religious private schools require courses in religion, but are not teaching moral values. The religion courses are more along the lines of history of religion, or comparative religious studies.
 
I don't think that you are in any way qualified to decide what does or does not create such people one way or the other.

So... lets see. Madrasses are Islamic schools, who do not indoctrinate now?

And as for being qualified. Considering I had one year of Arabic school before being moved to an American school, then I bet I am more qualified than you. I have seen several education systems, both private and public over the years,.. what have you seen? Church?

This only proves it.

Frankly, there are plenty of people that go through the public educational system only to become unproductive anti-social drains on society. I would actually say that it far more common for this to happen with the results of the government system than homeschooling.

yea considering a large majority of children are still being educated in the public system, and home schooling is relatively new in popularity.. then duh! Give it a decade or two, and lets talk again.

Nonsense. Unless a person is deliberately trying to get into a field like paleontology of biology (which is not the case in the vast, vast majority of cases), whether or not a person happens to believe in evolution is completely irrelevant to their future professional success or higher education.

It has a huge relevance. It shows ignorance and a lack of ability to think logically and asses situations based on logic and science.

By being indoctrinated only with what the state wants them believe.

Horse**** and you know it. Seems someone here has been indoctrinated to believe something that does not happen. If it was actually as you state it was, then a huge majority of the population would be voting and supporting the sitting government and changes in government would never happen...

You're advocating it right now! :lamo

It's hardly my fault that you are apparently too blinded by the very indoctrination we are currently discussing to see that fact.

Now you are calling me indoctrinated? If by indoctrinated means that I am open minded, and not falling for what people in authority tell me is the truth and am willing to seek out the facts and truth and generate my own opinion.. then yea I am mega indoctrinated.. gezz. You on the other hand sound like a religious right talking point from one of those "pro-family" organisations in the US.

This is completely and totally false. Public education has been a blatant shill for the Left Wing agenda basically from square one.

Only an utter fool would argue that public education is in any way free of bias. Your entire argument here is basically dripping with it.

Thank you for proving my point on the wacko right wing conspiracy theories..

"Homeschooling is bad because children might become religious or conservative. We have to make sure that they become secular and left leaning instead!"

No that is not what the problem is. If children want to become religious or conservative then it should be up to them, not their parents, not some politician and that is what you are failing to see... or just refusing to see because of your indoctrinating..

The American public educational system teaches history from an explicitly liberal perspective, and, on an administrative basis, goes out of its way to teach liberal social philosophy and ideas.

LOL thanks again for proving my point. Promoting right wing "thinkers" (an oxymoron there in many cases) and religious figures over key historical figures in world history.. is bias big time.

How else do you explain such idiocy as expelling children from schools simply because they make vaguely gun related shapes with their fingers?

Stupid head teachers and parents..happens all over. There was a case in the UK where a headteacher refused boys in wearing shorts while it was near 100 degrees, so the boys (thanks to the free thinking they have learned) protested by coming in skirts which was allowed for the girls. Yes they were disciplined big time, but the parent outcry hurt the head teacher even more.

How do you explain schools banning books because they have a hint of homosexuality in them.. according to them. Or downplaying some founding fathers because they dont meet a right wing standard?

Texas Removes Thomas Jefferson From Teaching Standard

Yup, I can totally see how your views here can be seen to be "free of bias." :roll:

So now being against Hilter is bias?

I skipped over that supposed "phase" of my life entirely, thank you very much.

That explains a lot of your views.

"Teenage rebelliousness" is more a result of the degradation of the traditional family unit more than anything else. Children are basically taught to respect their peers more than their elders from pre-school onwards, and it shows in their behavior.

Ahh you are one of those.. let me guess, women should be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen right?

You sir live in the 1800s....which explains your comments here..
 
Okay, as a simple one, my granddaughters were over here visiting one day, and the oldest informed me that "You shouldn't be throwing your soda cans away. My teacher says that's bad for the environment", to which I replied, "Well, when you grow up and pay your own way, then you can decide what you want to do, and how you want to live, but I will live my life my own way". (little lessons in libertarianism ;)).

It is bad for the environment and she is correct and sorry to say.. you are wrong. Cans are not bio-degradable and are dangerous to the environment. Hence recycle them, and in the US I believe you can get money for them as well no?

I'm a bit surprised that you don't already have a grasp on what moral values are. Please tell me you're kidding. Right? Wrong? Ring a bell? Belief systems?

I know what it is.. my question is what do you think it is. Do not kill, do not steal, be nice and polite, treat people fairly and so on...

but how about... homosexuality is wrong, blacks are subhuman, Jews are bad, and all Muslims are terrorists? For some these are moral values as well.. and yes they are very wrong and should not be taught and should be in fact fought against.

That is why I asked for your opinion what moral values are.

I haven't seen evidence of what I am specifically referring to in the religious schools, and I do not want it in public education institutions. That being said, our religious private schools exceed the public schools in education. Around here, the religious private schools require courses in religion, but are not teaching moral values. The religion courses are more along the lines of history of religion, or comparative religious studies.

All religions? And religion and moral values go hand in hand... so you cant claim that religious schools dont educate on moral values... it is their whole thing for peak sake heh.

And private schools tend to exceed public schools in all countries.. they have more money and are often the same type of people who use them.. socially and economically.. homogeneous is the word I am looking for I think.

I have attended private schools most of my life, and it was the same "type" of people who used them (expats). When I started going to public high schools and university then I started to meet people outside my private school "group" so to say.. I met the kid who's father was rich as hell and had a silver spoon from birth, and the kid who's grew up with a single parent and not much money.. and so on. But they all had the basic educational basis and were in no way indoctrinated to believe one thing or another. In fact the girl who came from a hippy type family, is now living as official Danish representative at an embassy in a major country.. so.... and her views and ideas are no where what her mothers are.. lol.
 
You're right, we should stop debating drug laws, death penalties, firearm laws and everything else because the legislation has determined what is and what isn't correct.

Where did I say that?

And your assumption has little merit beyond your feelings. Lets see the data that home schooling harms social skills.

I would love to see some data, but there is not much around since it is only relatively lately that home schooling has become so popular that studies are being made, and yes my assumption is based partly on feelings and on logic. When exactly are home schooled children going to socialize during the day with other children who all are in school?
 
It is bad for the environment and she is correct and sorry to say.. you are wrong. Cans are not bio-degradable and are dangerous to the environment. Hence recycle them, and in the US I believe you can get money for them as well no

Excellent job of proving my point for me. A moral judgement has been made on a non-moral issue, and one that the schools have no business teaching. It is not my moral obligation to save aluminum cans. I certainly can, if I so desire, and yes, I can get paid for them, but I throw them away, and if someone wants to dig through my garbage to retrieve them, then so be it.
 
Excellent job of proving my point for me. A moral judgement has been made on a non-moral issue, and one that the schools have no business teaching. It is not my moral obligation to save aluminum cans. I certainly can, if I so desire, and yes, I can get paid for them, but I throw them away, and if someone wants to dig through my garbage to retrieve them, then so be it.

Pete is right. It's a factual judgement that cans are bad for the environment, not a moral one.
 
Pete is right. It's a factual judgement that cans are bad for the environment, not a moral one.

Are they bad for the environment? Can they not be recycled? Is it my obligation to do so? This is the moral judgement I am talking about. It is an environmentally conscious thing to do, but it's not an issue of right and wrong.
 
The point is that parents should have the freedom to choose what kind of education their children get.

The problem with such an assumption is it is absolute, and includes an "education" in any manner of areas that cross the line so much greater than any "indoctrination" the state might perform that it enters into the territory of sedition while posing a clear danger to the greater society. Where that line might be drawn is certainly open to debate, but when you make parental rights absolute, you sanction cult-like behavior that can leads to mayhem. As has been brought up already in this thread, to sanction the sort of indoctrination that turns children into terrorists is the price you pay for such absolutist thinking.

I really have no knowledge of this particular case, and don't know what these parents have been teaching their children. Perhaps you do, but I would rather have limits on home schooling than no limits whatsoever. Perhaps Germany places too many restrictions, but I would prefer that to none at all. Anarchy serves no one.
 
Are they bad for the environment? Can they not be recycled? Is it my obligation to do so? This is the moral judgement I am talking about. It is an environmentally conscious thing to do, but it's not an issue of right and wrong.

Yes it is bad for the environment. Thats a fact. If a kid educated in a school told a smoker "That's wrong, it's bad for your health.", would you really care that some moral implication in the terminology "wrong" was there? Because its not morally wrong to smoke, but that's what they have taught in schools for decades.
 
This policy that makes homeschooling your own children illegal means that the state basically owns their minds..

Vade retro statanas!

lol
 
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