German army in new racism row [Title Change]

[VTA]

Don't know if this the right forum, but it's new enough to fit, I guess.
Either way someone will set me straight, eh?

I know next to nothing about Germany and it's military, so who knows how this fits in with an overall ideology, I just find it ironic; here we are kicking and screaming over an irrelevant old shock jocks foolish remarks.

Rrom CNN

BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- A video showing a German army instructor telling one of his soldiers to envision African-Americans in the Bronx while firing his machine gun was broadcast Saturday on national television.

------------*Snip*----------------

"We can no longer talk about an isolated case," said Lt. Juergen Rose of the Darmstaedter Signal, a group of current and former army officers and sergeants who independently review military procedures.

"Things like this don't happen in the army on an everyday basis, but unfortunately in recent years there have been a number of comparable incidents."

------------*Snip*----------------

The instructor tells the soldier, "You are in the Bronx. A black van is stopping in front of you. Three African-Americans are getting out and they are insulting your mother in the worst ways ... Act."

The soldier fires his machine gun several times and yells an obscenity several times in English. The instructor then tells the soldier to curse even louder.

------------*Snip*----------------

The video is the latest embarrassment for the German army. Eighteen army instructors are currently on trial for allegedly abusing and humiliating 163 recruits in 2004. Last year, newspapers published photos of German soldiers in Afghanistan posing with a skulls -- including one who exposed himself while holding a skull.

 

[1069]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

Well, Germany. What can one say? :shrug:
Let us not forget that these are the children and grandchildren of nazis and nazi collaborators and nazi sympathizers.
It will probably take more than a few generations for that taint- that stink- to pass from them.
For now, I think they're sort of a lost cause.

 

[black wolf]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

I'm glad our justice system works well. The officer or sergeant who gave those orders has been transposed and the issue will be closely investigated and put on trial. I have no idea what drove him to this stupidity but I hope they can find out. No more details have been disclosed yet.
I think stuff like this happens in every army in the world, just the names of the imaginary targets are different. Blacks, towelheads, jews, slit-eye, kurds, japs... It depends on a false understanding of loyalty whether these cases are uncovered or not.
From my own time in the German army, I can tell you that we had one or two racists in a 100 man training company. When one of them laid out revisionist propaganda newspapers (called 'the White Newspaper', illegally printed and forbidden), he was detained and questioned and received punishment by arrest. There are probably a few more racists in companies that have a lower education average than our company had (50% Abitur which is high school diploma equivalent + 1 school year).

 

[PrimBabUB]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

German instuctor: “You're in the Bronx, a black van pulls up in front of you and three African-Americans get out and start really insulting your mother ... now do something!”

German recruit to instuctor: ja Sir Herr Kommandant!

German recruit to African Americans: Die fette Yo Mutter so, wenn sie in einen Heißluftballon reitet, schaut es, wie sie wearin Strumpfhosen ist!

 

[PeteEU]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

There are racists in all society.. will not be the first or the last time we hear about this.

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

Well, Germany. What can one say? :shrug:
Let us not forget that these are the children and grandchildren of nazis and nazi collaborators and nazi sympathizers.
It will probably take more than a few generations for that taint- that stink- to pass from them.
For now, I think they're sort of a lost cause.

Funny, I wouldn't have taken you for someone to be an advocate for the bible's "Sins of the father..." bit.

 

[VTA]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

I'm glad our justice system works well. The officer or sergeant who gave those orders has been transposed and the issue will be closely investigated and put on trial. I have no idea what drove him to this stupidity but I hope they can find out. No more details have been disclosed yet.
I think stuff like this happens in every army in the world, just the names of the imaginary targets are different. Blacks, towelheads, jews, slit-eye, kurds, japs... It depends on a false understanding of loyalty whether these cases are uncovered or not.
From my own time in the German army, I can tell you that we had one or two racists in a 100 man training company. When one of them laid out revisionist propaganda newspapers (called 'the White Newspaper', illegally printed and forbidden), he was detained and questioned and received punishment by arrest. There are probably a few more racists in companies that have a lower education average than our company had (50% Abitur which is high school diploma equivalent + 1 school year).

I'm sure you're right, in that there exists alot of singling out of a certian group, from the rag head to the jews, etc... I just found this quite odd. Are there a number of Bronx born black dudes invading Germany? How did that get picked out of a hat?

 

[black wolf]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

I'm sure you're right, in that there exists alot of singling out of a certian group, from the rag head to the jews, etc... I just found this quite odd. Are there a number of Bronx born black dudes invading Germany? How did that get picked out of a hat?

I have no idea. Maybe the instructor watches too many 'Ghetto gangster' movies on late night television. These movies are rather popular in Germany, especially with a younger (under ~30) audience. The movies show an 'exotic' society to Germans, with rampant firearm crime and lawless city districts. I suspect an unconsciously developed desire for free weapon possession and a picturing of just 'going out there with your gun and fight your enemies' wish. Actually, it's mostly young arabs, turks and blacks imitating ghetto gangsta behavior we see on the streets, as are many 'white' Germans from low-income condo areas. Most of them strive for a bling-bling and brand name outfit image, like the Ali G. persona is portraying.

 

[Hatuey]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

I'm sure you're right, in that there exists a lot of singling out of a certain group, from the rag head to the Jews, etc... I just found this quite odd. Are there a number of Bronx born black dudes invading Germany? How did that get picked out of a hat?

No, but I got a memo that some of our forces have their eye on France. If 17 year olds can do it. So can we. VICTORY OR DEATH!

 

[MSgt]

Re: And we thought Imus was racist...

There are racists in all society.. will not be the first or the last time we hear about this.

Dismiss it as easy as that huh? Just chalk it up to "all societies have racism?" From a German Qu'ran reciting judge, to French minority Muslim riots, to a German military leaders instructions to subordinates to pretend they are slaughtering American blacks, and on to outspoken popular French politicians that announce that Muslims need to be kicked out of France......your region has more than a little attitude of "racism in every society" gives respect towards. Instead of the individual racism you will find in other societies, you have an institutional racial problem. It infects your justice system, military institutions, and politics.

You underestimate what is going on in those two core countries of continental Europe, which so happens to lead the EU. Like I have stated in the past, what is and will continue to hold Europe back are the culturl dead zones of these two countries. Europe has a Franco-Germanic problem.

 

[rathi]

Dismiss it as easy as that huh? Just chalk it up to "all societies have racism?" From a German Qu'ran reciting judge, to French minority Muslim riots, to a German military leaders instructions to subordinates to pretend they are slaughtering American blacks, and on to outspoken popular French politicians that announce that Muslims need to be kicked out of France......your region has more than a little attitude of "racism in every society" gives respect towards. Instead of the individual racism you will find in other societies, you have an institutional racial problem. It infects your justice system, military institutions, and politics.

And we in America we have the south.:roll: Germany certainly has problems with racism, but the government treats such incidents very harshly. This guy is going to receive some fairly serious punishment. France is a different situation. They are quite nationalistic and protective of French culture. They could care less about race, but they do not like immigrants refusing to adopt French culture. Intolerant, perhaps, but not really racist.

 

[MSgt]

And we in America we have the south.:roll: Germany certainly has problems with racism, but the government treats such incidents very harshly. This guy is going to receive some fairly serious punishment. France is a different situation. They are quite nationalistic and protective of French culture. They could care less about race, but they do not like immigrants refusing to adopt French culture. Intolerant, perhaps, but not really racist.

And what does the old south have to do with the American judicial, military, and political system? You are identifying individual racism not institutional racism, which is what I stated as the difference. If this were a U.S. Marine telling his recruits to pretend that they are slaughtering German citizens or an American judge throwing scriptures of the Bible in an abused woman's face, then the outrage would be deafening. But, with France and Germany what we get is a quiet acknowledgement in a passing article that will largely be forgotten as soon as an American disgrace can be exaggerated and paraded. And we in America merely glance at the event as we dismiss them as we try to compare them to the racist down the street.

This is not just a single incident. This is the mood of the culture. What was once a movement against Jews, is now largely a movement against Muslim Turks. But this widespread sentiment of superiority doesn't stop with Jews and Muslim Turks. They have these sentiments against all people of color....even American citizens. Google the issue and you will find plenty of studies conducted by Europeans on this very thing. In Germany, racism is not only individual, it is institutional. Historically, this has always been so and today's German politicians are at a loss as of what to do. Presently they deal out harsh punishments for anyone that hints at anti-Semitism and merely study the boiling hatred between German and Muslim youths. Their "cures" for hatred is causing more resentment.

France is different. The racism (intolerance is a form of racism) is very much an institutional thing. Not so much an individual phenomenon. The tragedy of the French, is that they actually deserve a better government than what they are used to.

 

[Slainte]

This is not just a single incident. This is the mood of the culture. What was once a movement against Jews, is now largely a movement against Muslim Turks.

Ridiculous, show me your "studies" that make this comparison. Most German people are very sensitive about their past, it's not in danger of being repeated anytime soon.

But this widespread sentiment of superiority doesn't stop with Jews and Muslim Turks. They have these sentiments against all people of color

Who do? About the same percentage of people feel this way in Germany as in any developed country.

In Germany, racism is not only individual, it is institutional. Historically, this has always been so.

There's institutional racism all across the "white, christian" world, your country, nor mine are any exception. In the UK the Stephen Lawerence inquiry revealed massive institutional racism in the British police force. As for the US well...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aulq0TLM7Vo[/YOUTUBE]

 

[MSgt]

Ridiculous, show me your "studies" that make this comparison. Most German people are very sensitive about their past, it's not in danger of being repeated anytime soon.

Oh c'mon. Why do I always have to show Europeans what they should already know? And why is that you guys think that what occurs there is what is occurring here? Google will produce plenty of books and plenty of studies carried out by Europeans about Europe. One of the major problems in Europe is the absence of laws and progroms designed to focus on integrating minorities into the mainstream (I happened to have read a lot of this).

The Council of Europe finds that the "general climate" is fostering racism in Germany..."On 3 July, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI) published its second report on Germany. The Commission expresses its deep concern about the extent of racist and xenophobic attacks in Germany, as well as the social climate that encourages such attacks.

The ECRI is an official body established by the Council of Europe, whose declared aim is “to combat racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism and intolerance at a pan-European level and from the angle of the protection of human rights.”

The second report has proven to be extremely embarrassing for the German government—a coalition headed by the Social Democratic Party (SPD) together with the Green Party. The preamble to the report states that while measures against racism and discrimination have been taken, Germany is nevertheless “a society in which serious cases of racially motivated violence occur”.

“This means that issues of racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and intolerance are yet to be adequately acknowledged and confronted.”



Racism against blacks is a growing trend in Europe, especially Germany according to Global News Digest. This also states on Germans unwillingness to even acknowledge it. This goes back to the senitments you had about Germans being remorseful. They are so remorseful, they even refuse to admit what is going on right in front of them..."Such attacks are increasingly common in Germany. In recent weeks police have made arrests in connection with such brutal attacks on Africans and other dark-skinned people in Berlin, Wisner and other cities. Africans know certain areas in the eastern part of Berlin, such as Marzahn and Hellersdorf, as "no-go" areas where they are certain to be attacked or killed.

Police statistics show a 19 percent increase in racist violence by people described as members of the far right. Last year, there were 958 such acts recorded, up from 776 in 2004.

The bad situation is compounded by the fact that Germans, in general, seem unwilling to accept the depth of racism in their society. As a result, those who should are not very eager to speak very frankly about it. The situation is so bad that many Africans who spoke to the press about racism in Germany refused to give their full names for fear of reprisals."

At a European Forum for Migration Studies (EFMS) at the Institute at the University of Bamberg, it was concluded that racism in Germany is a very serious problem that is forcasted to worsen as the divide between native Germans and immigrants get even wider. In a study called the National Analytical Study on Racist Violence and Crime it was stated among many things that... "Concerning the affiliation of offenders with extremist organisations, it can be stated that 50% of offenders in West Germany, but only 10% in East Germany, have been registered as Skinheads." This study includes many graphs and explains the horrible absence of minority support from government and the absence of immigrant laws as some of the cause of neglect that has encouraged German youth to take matters into their own frustrated hands.


According to a Pilot Study conducted by the EU, they have reason to focus on something many Europeans refuse to admit is there. Apparantly it is a large enough problem that "Migrants seem to be particularly vulnerable in the sphere of employment and in the context of commercial transactions, where nearly on third of respondents had subjectively faced discrimination. The same proportion of migrants reported to have encountered discriminatory practices by the police or in education". This is where many try to pass it off as simple cases like what we see in America. But we don't have judges rubbing Biblical or Qu'ranic scriptures in the faces of victims or military leaders instructing our impressionable to simply pretend they are slaughtering German citizens.

Peter Schneider is a German novelist and essayist writing in the Herald Tribune: Europe........"The recent riots in France have increased the sense of alarm. German politicians and experts lined up to point out why such riots are unlikely in Berlin, Munich, Stuttgart or Hamburg. They claimed that young Muslims in Germany - although up to 50 percent of them are unemployed - had full access to the welfare state and were not isolated in high-rise projects as in the suburbs of Paris.

Yet there was an undertone of panic. At stake is German confidence that their nation can continue as it had been: integrating immigrants without an integration policy, remaining true to the traditional German identity and preserving the reassuring post-1945 chronology of advancing modernism."




And so on. There is plenty of material from Europeean studies to read up on. This isn't the typical racism you will see in individuals in America and other places. The racism in Germany and other European states is institutional.

Who do? About the same percentage of people feel this way in Germany as in any developed country.

Nope. The difference is the widespread unity and the deep rooted institutions. The two stellar examples of how bad this is (aside from the studies conducted by Europeans themselves) is the judicial and military behaviors of the institutions. Ever seen German troops in Africa? They are rather fond of getting away with shooting unarmed blacks. Something as simple as telling their soldiers to pretend they are killing black Americans prescribes their behaviors when sent abroad.

There's institutional racism all across the "white, christian" world, your country, nor mine are any exception. In the UK the Stephen Lawerence inquiry revealed massive institutional racism in the British police force. As for the US well...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aulq0TLM7Vo[/YOUTUBE]

Exaggerations. I appreciate the "YouTube" wisdom, but as is the typical argument, you are exonerating the real problems of the European theater and trying to pass them off as a mirror example of what occurs elsewhere. One can clearly see the impact of racism on different societies. Racism persists in all societies where diversity is defined (America), but men of all color lead equal lives, rise to equal offices, and lead others here. Our Police Force is full of Blacks as is our military. Simple examples don't define the civilizational mood. The impact in Germany is becoming so heavy that Germans are becoming ever stubborn to acknowledge it.

And as you can see with the very tiny bit of material above I provided, even European higher echelons of order are finding it to be quite the troublesome phenomenon.

 

[rathi]

And what does the old south have to do with the American judicial, military, and political system? You are identifying individual racism not institutional racism, which is what I stated as the difference. If this were a U.S. Marine telling his recruits to pretend that they are slaughtering German citizens or an American judge throwing scriptures of the Bible in an abused woman's face, then the outrage would be deafening. But, with France and Germany what we get is a quiet acknowledgement in a passing article that will largely be forgotten as soon as an American disgrace can be exaggerated and paraded. And we in America merely glance at the event as we dismiss them as we try to compare them to the racist down the street.

How many black death row inmates have been proven innocent because of DNA testing? Hows that for institutionalized racism in our judicial system.

France is different. The racism (intolerance is a form of racism) is very much an institutional thing. Not so much an individual phenomenon. The tragedy of the French, is that they actually deserve a better government than what they are used to.

Its not racial, its cultural. A black guy who speaks French and acts French will not be molested. An Algerian who follows his countries and religions traditions will not be treated as well.

The study you cite makes all sorts of claims, but lacks evidence to support such claims. Even the article you linked agrees. Furthermore it doesn't provide a comparison to other western countries.

 

[VTA]

How many black death row inmates have been proven innocent because of DNA testing? Hows that for institutionalized racism in our judicial system.

Interesting question. I don't mean to sidetrack the discussion, but, how many?

 

[Slainte]

Oh c'mon. Why do I always have to show Europeans what they should already know?

Ok, seeing how this is a thread about European racism let’s talk about it. I’ll leave American racism aside as that could fill its own thread.

I’m fully aware of what those reports are talking about. By far the best place to witness the far right in Europe is on the football (soccer) terraces. As a personal hobby I enjoy going to matches around Europe, especially to local derbies and I thus feel that I have a better understanding of this than you might get in those reports. You’re obviously correct that amongst the white working class in Europe there has always been a sharp far right faction, I can think of half a dozen football related far right groups/gangs just off the top of my head. In England concentrated around the London clubs you have Combat 18 a group formed out of the splinters of the National Front. In France you have the Boulogne Boys based in the working class Parisian suburbs there; these are the people Sarkozy is appealing to when he calls the Arab rioters there scum. In Italy the most notorious are the Irriducibili of Lazio in Rome. In Holland Feyenoord’s Het Legioen have a huge far right faction. In Spain Madrid Ultras of both Real and Athletico have been seen freely unveiling Nazi banners at games. In eastern Europe it’s really even worse, there the gangs aren’t as notorious because they aren’t as pronounced. They blend in with the average supporters more. There aren’t really large immigrant communities to fight with so their racsim is only visible when they play western european teams.

This racism is to a degree down to there being something different about being German/French/British to being American. We are far older countries, our histories while often unpleasant are very important to us. People who don’t relate to this history can’t really be considered part of the country by many. That’s becoming a more and more dated idea now though, I don’t know about other European countries, but assimilation is now becoming a priority throughout our education system. Gordon Brown wants to teach about “Britishness” from a young age at school. The Police Service in the wake of the Stephen Lawerence inquiry started a huge fast tracking programme for officers from ethnic minorities. I’d say that there are easily as many Black and Asian MP’s in Birtian as there are black congressmen and senators in the US. There number is also expected to rise significantly at the next general election. The Conservative party in Birtian always had a stigma as a “white, christian” party, now under Camerons reforms, they should be returning plenty of ethnic minority Tory MP’s. in 2009. Norman Tebbit a fiercely conservative Tory cabinet minister for Thatcher coined the idea of the cricket test:

A large proportion of Britain's Asian population fail to pass the cricket test. Which side do they cheer for? It's an interesting test. Are you still harking back to where you came from or where you are?

Serge Mahmood, Monty Panesar and a whole host of others tell me that we’re improving in this regard. In a few more generations it will be even better.

There’s a different attitude towards immigrants in Europe, You don’t come to Europe to be European, you come and maybe your grandchildren will be. It takes a bit longer I guess, there’s a much larger history to assimilate too. For the vast majority of people however, you are aren’t European because of the colour of your skin, your European because of your attitude. It’s only the marginal far right gangs which you can see on the football terraces that wouldn’t accept a black man regardless of his accent, cricket team and job.

People used to say Europe was a salad bowl where everything is mixed but distinct, whereas America was a melting bowl, where everything is mixed up and comes out similar. I think he truth is that Europe IS a melting bowl, it’s just not as fast. Racism in America is perfectly comparable to European racism in most practical senses, however in America the person being racist knows he’s being racist towards another American, in Europe a racist is more likely to consider a person from an ethnic minority a foreigner, especially if he’s 1st or 2nd generation.

Another thing, do you really believe that if I looked hard enough I wouldn’t be able to find half a dozen reports lambasting institutional racsim in America. I’ve lived on both continents (have you btw?), between London and Houston I definetly didn’t notice any greater representation in the oil industry where I work, a historically “white christian” wealthy business. From what I understand the racial problems in the US in terms of wealth and housing disparity dwarf those of any in Europe.

Ever seen German troops in Africa? They are rather fond of getting away with shooting unarmed blacks.

You're going to have to show me some kind of source here, I've hardly even heard of German military involvement in Africa. I've certainly never heard of them massacring unarmed civillians - America soldiers on the other hand...

Exaggerations. I appreciate the "YouTube" wisdom, but as is the typical argument, you are exonerating the real problems of the European theater and trying to pass them off as a mirror example of what occurs elsewhere.

I'm really not trying to do this. I'm trying to avoid the transatlantic dick measuring contest, which seems to happen a lot on these boards where Europeans and Americans bitch about who does what better. I freely admit there are large racsim problems in Europe, I know this from living here and seeing it first hand. Equally however there are racism problems in America and they ARE comparable. I'm not saying whose better or worse, just that they permeate the entire white, christian world.

 

[black wolf]

A small update on the thread issue: the trainer was an officer candidate (I don't know the American rank equivalent), 20 years old. He has already been fired.
Politicians and army leaders are currently discussing an improvement of training and political education standards for military personnel and recruits.

 

[MSgt]

How many black death row inmates have been proven innocent because of DNA testing? Hows that for institutionalized racism in our judicial system.

Bit desperate aren't you? What's next...one black guy in a white television show? You are using the fact that racism exists in America and seeking to make it equal to what goes on in Europe. And further, you are attempting to speculate a fantasy number of wrongfully accused prisoners against cold hard European facts of racial tensions. Even the most racist area in America won't see an ethnic cleansing or mass racial deportations. And if you don't think this doesn't happen in Europe, look again at the entire 20th century right up to the 90's. And with the rise of Islamic populations in select ghettos in Europe and given the increasingly bad blood in the divisions between minority/immigrants and native locales, Europe is on its way to repeating their bloody past.

Its not racial, its cultural. A black guy who speaks French and acts French will not be molested. An Algerian who follows his countries and religions traditions will not be treated as well.

The study you cite makes all sorts of claims, but lacks evidence to support such claims. Even the article you linked agrees. Furthermore it doesn't provide a comparison to other western countries.

So, European studies about Europeans with a focus on Germany by scholars and special committees are to be dismissed because it doesn't give you the exact information you are needing? The simple links I provided say very much about thei phenomenon and they offer plenty of case studies as proof and "evidence." Seeing as how I am not your teacher, you are more than welcome on looking into the subject yourself. You will find plenty of study on exactly what I am talking about - all conducted by Europeans themselves.

 

[MSgt]

You're going to have to show me some kind of source here, I've hardly even heard of German military involvement in Africa. I've certainly never heard of them massacring unarmed civillians - America soldiers on the other hand...

If you've hardly heard of German deployment abroad, then you know little about it. Look for your own source. Look into Somalia and Djibouti. And like most Europeans you dismiss your own region's screw ups on your way to unfairly focus on American activity as we maintain a presence globally. Our job could never be without error. But we are doing it much better than our predecessors, aren't we? We haven't raped the third world of resources, planted flags, colonized, or walked us into two World Wars. And given the great degree of democracy spread over the last half century, you might want to forgive of us of our small mistakes along the way.

I freely admit there are large racsim problems in Europe, I know this from living here and seeing it first hand.

Yet, before I produced the European studies, you pretended to be ignorant of such things and you freely admitted nothing.

Equally however there are racism problems in America and they ARE comparable. I'm not saying whose better or worse, just that they permeate the entire white, christian world.

No, what you are doing is dismissing the mountain for the anthill. They are not comparible nor are they equal. I can show you an entire 20th century full of ethnic cleansing and genocide based on racial tension and hatred in Europe all the way up to just a decade ago. Another DP member even looks to speculate on how many erroneously imprisoned blacks in American prison to diminish what goes on inside Europe, Germany especially. The comparison of such racial tension in America would have been towards our old south before our civil rights march and the worst spread violence would have been before our own Civil War to free them. But there were still not mass genocides and slaughterings to witness. The major difference here between our civilizations is the extreme measures we will take and the degree of desperations that our minorities exist in. Because of our tolerations and opportunities, the likelyhood of our immigrants or minorities lashing out is next to none. This is not true in Europe, were Muslims were launching bottle rockets from German buildings even a week after 9/11, a German judge throws the Qu'ran in a woman's face, a German military leader tells his subordinates to pretend to be killing black Americans, Muslims in France riot over social injustices, and French poilitical leaders openly boast on the expultion of immigrants to a cheering crowd fo countless native citizens.

I'm afraid the racism between us is very differnet. Even if it were equal, imagine the European polls to measure disaproval and global outcries if this video showed an American soldier teahcing his recruits to pretend he is slaughtering French and German civilians. I dare say that we would be discussing this very differently.

This sense that "my severed arm is ok because you have a cut on yours" just doesn't cut to the issue. There are plenty of things Americans do better than Europeans. And vice versa. Immigration, minorities, and racial addressals is an American triumph. Ironically, were it not for the slave movement, America would probably not have had the opportunity to learn toleration on the level that we try to practice it.

 

[Slainte]

If you've hardly heard of German deployment abroad, then you know little about it. Look for your own source.

I did but couldn't find one. Perhaps you could help me out.

And like most Europeans you dismiss your own region's screw ups on your way to unfairly focus on American activity as we maintain a presence globally.

I certainly don't dismiss MY nations screw ups. The British Empire left a lot of the world in a mess. It did some good things too though, maybe we should start a seperate thread if we're going to discuss it.

Our job could never be without error. But we are doing it much better than our predecessors, aren't we? We haven't raped the third world of resources, planted flags, colonized, or walked us into two World Wars. And given the great degree of democracy spread over the last half century, you might want to forgive of us of our small mistakes along the way.

What are you talking about now? Believe me, I'm not some nouveau leftie, Parisian America hater. You claimed German troops have happily gone around shooting innocent Africans, it was a throw away comment. It meant even if they had so have other troops, including American.

Yet, before I produced the European studies, you pretended to be ignorant of such things and you freely admitted nothing.

I denied that the institutional racism towards Turks in Germany today is comparable to the institutional racism towards Jews under Hitler. I also said that racism in Europe is comparable to racism in America. If, in your mind there isn't any racism in the US, then I can see what you're talking about.

imagine the European polls to measure disaproval and global outcries if this video showed an American soldier teahcing his recruits to pretend he is slaughtering French and German civilians. I dare say that we would be discussing this very differently.

What exactly do you mean by this. I agree that to an extent America is held to higher standards than most countries. This is due to your position and influence in the world. But if you're implying I'd be outraged if an American DI told his men to imagine they were in France "wasting ***** *** frogs". You're wrong, I'd probably just laugh. If it were a comment about French Arabs or muslims, etc, for obvious current geopolitical realities it might be more serious.

No, what you are doing is dismissing the mountain for the anthill. They are not comparible nor are they equal. I can show you an entire 20th century full of ethnic cleansing and genocide based on racial tension and hatred in Europe all the way up to just a decade ago. Another DP member even looks to speculate on how many erroneously imprisoned blacks in American prison to diminish what goes on inside Europe, Germany especially. The comparison of such racial tension in America would have been our old south before our civil rights march and the worst spread violence would have been before our own Civil War to free them. But there were still not mass genocides and slaughterings to witness.

In my previous post I felt I mentioned a lot about the roots of racism in Europe, how it rears it's head and how it's being tackled. You've not responded to any of it very specifically, so I'm not sure how to respond. This rhetoric is getting a little repetitive...

The major difference between our civilizations is the extreme measures we will take and the extreme desperation our minorities exist in. Because of our tolerations and opportunities, the likelyhood of our immigrants or minorities lashing out is next to none.

To be honest, I think Europe and America are really part of the same civilisation. I'm not convinved the average American is any more tolerant than the average Brit, Spaniard, or German. This isn't based on any EUROPA study. It's based on the Americans, Brits, Spaniards and Germans I know. Finally I'm not as confident as you are that the USA has seen the last of it's ethnic strife.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Exaggerations. I appreciate the "YouTube" wisdom, but as is the typical argument, you are exonerating the real problems of the European theater and trying to pass them off as a mirror example of what occurs elsewhere. One can clearly see the impact of racism on different societies. Racism persists in all societies where diversity is defined (America), but men of all color lead equal lives, rise to equal offices, and lead others here. Our Police Force is full of Blacks as is our military. Simple examples don't define the civilizational mood. The impact in Germany is becoming so heavy that Germans are becoming ever stubborn to acknowledge it.

You have been very good in pointing out the problem Europe have with racism and of course we have problems so it's good that you point them out (put sometimes you do some exagiration). But I will try to pay the back the favor and provide you with some American statistics. To show that you also still have big problems.

Like for example that the income gap between White and Black Americans havn't decreased sens the time of official Apartheid:

http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/10484766

 

[MSgt]

You have been very good in pointing out the problem Europe have with racism and of course we have problems so it's good that you point them out (put sometimes you do some exagiration). But I will try to pay the back the favor and provide you with some American statistics. To show that you also still have big problems.

Like for example that the income gap between White and Black Americans havn't decreased sens the time of official Apartheid:

Income by Race in 2004 Dollars - Swivel

And you missed the entire point. The seperations between races in all countries will go away slowly. As will racism in diverse populations (if it ever really goes at all). However, my point was to produce an escalating issue that affects military, judicial, and political stages. This isn't as simple as pointing out a racist individual and moving on. A German judge actually had to have brought a Qu'ran to the bench to use it against this Muslim woman. A German officer candidate had no problems and was confident enough in his hatreds tat he directed his subordinates to pretend they were killing not just blacks, but American citizens which are supposedly supposed to be "allies." In France we see riots years after French commentators chastized us for our L.A. riots and boasted that such a thing wouyld never happen in France. And in France we have a politician that has a large backing as he campaigns on a stage that would rid France of Muslims. These clearly define a larger root issue.

And if European committees are being honest to the situation by looking at it for the much more dangerous issue that it is, then why can't European citizens do the same? One of the studies I posted, which was conducted at the wishes of the EU, reports that many German citizens even refuse to acknowledge the very racial tension in their midst. It's always about an over concern about what America is doing and looking for American sins to write off their histories.

 

[MSgt]

Finally I'm not as confident as you are that the USA has seen the last of it's ethnic strife.

When was the last ethnic strife? L.A. rioters that were merely pissed off at a court verdict and mostly took advantage of the situation to loot than anything else? The Civil Rights Marches for equality? The Civil war?

My definitions of "ethnic strife" seem to be a bit more extreme than yours. The typical racist will continue to exist in diverse populations probably until the end of time. This is not strife. This is human nature. "Strife" is what happens that enables ethnic cleansings and genocides to occur. Grand expulsions that are desinged to seperate an incoming people from the native people is a sort of "strife."

And I never stated that America's racism is over. I simply stated that we have been conditioned from the beginning to universally accept the immigrant beyond the initial shock. America saw a great wave of Irish hit the shores in the 19th century and after the dust settled, they became as part of our society as the English before them. The same with the Italians later in the century. And the same will be true for Middle Eastern and African Muslims. Sadly, where the Civil War helped blacks, society failed them. It would be a hundred years before our society forced itself to accept that America is not a "Whites only" club....but instead of expelling they remained and eventually proved that they could contribute with the best of the rest. And today's issues with illegal immigrants from will turn out to be more talk athn anything else. Even if we did decide to deal with those that have "illegally" crossed the border, the vast overwhelmingly majority of Mexicans and hispanics across America are perfectly safe.

Had we the civilizational understanding of what we were doing during the expansion and pioneering days, our Native American base would be stronger today. This period in American history marks us at our worst. But given our entire history, it is the exception.

The "strife" that I refer to will not occur on American soil again.