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George Bush will save the world!

M

MarkoH

Nowadays here and there one can see people blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these people leave behind that American President has imposed a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism - pseudoreligion responsible for immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions. Many people think the 9/11 was a start-up of a new era. Don't fool yourself - it was only a development of the longstanding confrontation between two civilizations - Islamism and Christianity. God bless America to annihilate Islam as such! Nor it is essential that all Americans along with Christians and Hebrews around the world stand with America to make Islam pass into nothingness as the disgrace of mankind! United we stand!
 

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Welcome to Debate Politics!

I agree that we (and every country) need to rid the world of Islamo fanaticism, but not the Muslim religion. There are many many Muslim folks, Muslim communities and Muslim places in the world that are indeed peaceful.

The same applies to Christianity. It can be peaceful as well. The biggest difference is that fanatical Christians normally do not cut off peoples heads - they just throw rocks at parades.
 

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Yes but how about the Christian fanatics like Bush & Blair that have sent their forces ramping into the wrong country like a rampaging elephant & now killed tens of thousands of Iraqis ?
Don't you think they need to be dealt with ?
So far death toll from terrorists = under 4k people.
Death toll from Bush & Blair = tens of thousands.
 

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robin said:
Yes but how about the Christian fanatics like Bush & Blair that have sent their forces ramping into the wrong country like a rampaging elephant & now killed tens of thousands of Iraqis ?
What about the insurgents that are now targeting Iraqi civilians and mosques?

Our fault or fanaticism?
 

nkgupta80

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"complicated but responsible and honorable mission,"

maybe, Bush has honorable intentions. But "Complicated but responsible," yeah sure, he's created a lot more complications with his IRRESPONSIBLE war in Iraq."

Of course Muslim fundementalism is more rampant than Christian fundementalism, or any other religious extremism. The world's Christianity is based in the first-world, a lot more stable in that sense. But look at Islam. Its holiest city Meccais in a country ruled by brutal despots. Much of the muslim population lives in third-world countries, and are also subject to despotic, fundementalist regimes. Arab leaders used Israel as a way to unite the muslim populations under more fundementalism ideologies. Hell, the US trained the Taliban, making them a lethal terrorist breeding force.
 

nkgupta80

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What about the insurgents that are now targeting Iraqi civilians and mosques?

Our fault or fanaticism?
maybe the fanatacism was already there in Iraq although this kind of behaviour would not have been tolerated by Saddam's regime (dictatorships don't like civil unrest...). But us going in there certainly didn't help stop fanatacism. It just gave these fundementalists a reason to target those innocent, angry civilians caught in war, and make them terrorists.
 

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Originally posted by nkgupta80:
Nowadays here and there one can see people blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these people leave behind that American President has imposed a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism - pseudoreligion responsible for immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions. Many people think the 9/11 was a start-up of a new era. Don't fool yourself - it was only a development of the longstanding confrontation between two civilizations - Islamism and Christianity. God bless America to annihilate Islam as such! Nor it is essential that all Americans along with Christians and Hebrews around the world stand with America to make Islam pass into nothingness as the disgrace of mankind! United we stand!
There are better ways to stop the slaughter than...

 

Surenderer

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vauge said:
What about the insurgents that are now targeting Iraqi civilians and mosques?

Our fault or fanaticism?



Undoubtably(sp?) two of the worse things that can be done is Islam.....attacking innocent people and attacking someone coming for a mosque....two perfect examples of these being peoples who dont give a ---- about Islam



peace
 

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The thing about Islam is it has yet to modernize. Islamic clerics rarely debate about their Koran, their religion like Judaism and Christainity does. To them the Koran is infallible.

Take a journey in Europe and even the Colonial America hundreds of years ago.

The Pope said that if a Catholic kills a Protestant or Jew, not only does he not sin, but is ensured internal life in heaven.
Sounds familar with radical Islam doesn't it.

Islam idealogies are still stuck in the medeival times I'm afraid, when radical Christainity was the curse of the world.
 

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Moderator Gavel
:smash:

I moved this thread over to Religion and Philosophy as the OP has more to do with that than the war on terror.

/Moderator Gavel
 

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Now, as for the OP, do you think George W Bush is united in your goal of erradicating Islam?

His speech on September 17th, 2001:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you all very much for your hospitality. We've just had a -- wide-ranging discussions on the matter at hand. Like the good folks standing with me, the American people were appalled and outraged at last Tuesday's attacks. And so were Muslims all across the world. Both Americans and Muslim friends and citizens, tax-paying citizens, and Muslims in nations were just appalled and could not believe what we saw on our TV screens.

These acts of violence against innocents violate the fundamental tenets of the Islamic faith. And it's important for my fellow Americans to understand that.

The English translation is not as eloquent as the original Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran, itself: In the long run, evil in the extreme will be the end of those who do evil. For that they rejected the signs of Allah and held them up to ridicule.

The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war.

When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race.

America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect.

Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value.

I've been told that some fear to leave; some don't want to go shopping for their families; some don't want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they're afraid they'll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America.

Those who feel like they can intimidate our fellow citizens to take out their anger don't represent the best of America, they represent the worst of humankind, and they should be ashamed of that kind of behavior.

This is a great country. It's a great country because we share the same values of respect and dignity and human worth. And it is my honor to be meeting with leaders who feel just the same way I do. They're outraged, they're sad. They love America just as much as I do.

I want to thank you all for giving me a chance to come by. And may God bless us all.
Or:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/quotes.html

“Islam is a vibrant faith. Millions of our fellow citizens are Muslim. We respect the faith. We honor its traditions. Our enemy does not. Our enemy doesn't follow the great traditions of Islam. They've hijacked a great religion.”
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002

“Islam is a faith that brings comfort to people. It inspires them to lead lives based on honesty, and justice, and compassion.”
Remarks by President George W. Bush on U.S. Humanitarian Aid to Afghanistan
Presidential Hall, Dwight David Eisenhower Executive Office Building, Washington, D.C.
October 11, 2002

“All Americans must recognize that the face of terror is not the true faith -- face of Islam. Islam is a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. It's a faith that has made brothers and sisters of every race. It's a faith based upon love, not hate.”
President George W. Bush Holds Roundtable with Arab- and Muslim-American Leaders
Afghanistan Embassy, Washington, D.C.
September 10, 2002

“If liberty can blossom in the rocky soil of the West Bank and Gaza, it will inspire millions of men and women around the globe who are equally weary of poverty and oppression, equally entitled to the benefits of democratic government. I have a hope for the people of Muslim countries. Your commitments to morality, and learning, and tolerance led to great historical achievements. And those values are alive in the Islamic world today. You have a rich culture, and you share the aspirations of men and women in every culture. Prosperity and freedom and dignity are not just American hopes, or Western hopes. They are universal, human hopes. And even in the violence and turmoil of the Middle East, America believes those hopes have the power to transform lives and nations.”
President George W. Bush Calls for New Palestinian Leadership
The Rose Garden, Washington, D.C.
June 24, 2002

“When it comes to the common rights and needs of men and women, there is no clash of civilizations. The requirements of freedom apply fully to Africa and Latin America and the entire Islamic world. The peoples of the Islamic nations want and deserve the same freedoms and opportunities as people in every nation. And their governments should listen to their hopes.”
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at the 2002 Graduation Exercise of the United States Military Academy
West Point, New York
June 1, 2002

“America rejects bigotry. We reject every act of hatred against people of Arab background or Muslim faith… America values and welcomes peaceful people of all faiths -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu and many others. Every faith is practiced and protected here, because we are one country. Every immigrant can be fully and equally American because we're one country. Race and color should not divide us, because America is one country.”
President George W. Bush Promotes Compassionate Conservatism
Parkside Hall, San Jose, California
April 30, 2002

“We're taking action against evil people. Because this great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil. This is clearly a case of good versus evil, and make no mistake about it -- good will prevail.”
Remarks by the President George W. Bush at a Town Hall Meeting with Citizens of Ontario
Ontario Convention Center, Ontario, California
January 5, 2002

“According to Muslim teachings, God first revealed His word in the Holy Qur'an to the prophet, Muhammad, during the month of Ramadan. That word has guided billions of believers across the centuries, and those believers built a culture of learning and literature and science. All the world continues to benefit from this faith and its achievements.”
Remarks by the President George W. Bush At Iftaar Dinner
The State Dining Room, Washington, D.C.
November 19, 2001

“The Islam that we know is a faith devoted to the worship of one God, as revealed through The Holy Qur’an. It teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace.”
President George W. Bush’s Message for Ramadan
November 15, 2001

"This new enemy seeks to destroy our freedom and impose its views. We value life; the terrorists ruthlessly destroy it. We value education; the terrorists do not believe women should be educated or should have health care, or should leave their homes. We value the right to speak our minds; for the terrorists, free expression can be grounds for execution. We respect people of all faiths and welcome the free practice of religion; our enemy wants to dictate how to think and how to worship even to their fellow Muslims."
President George W. Bush Addresses the Nation
World Congress Center, Atlanta, Georgia
November 8, 2001

“All of us here today understand this: We do not fight Islam, we fight against evil.”
Remarks by President George W. Bush to the Warsaw Conference on Combating Terrorism
November 6, 2001

“I have assured His Majesty that our war is against evil, not against Islam. There are thousands of Muslims who proudly call themselves Americans, and they know what I know -- that the Muslim faith is based upon peace and love and compassion. The exact opposite of the teachings of the al Qaeda organization, which is based upon evil and hate and destruction.”
Remarks by President George W. Bush and His Majesty King Abdullah of Jordan
The Oval Office, Washington, D.C.
September 28, 2001

“Americans understand we fight not a religion; ours is not a campaign against the Muslim faith. Ours is a campaign against evil.”
President George W. Bush Remarks by the President to Airline Employees
O'Hare International Airport, Chicago, Illinois
September 27, 2001

“The terrorists are traitors to their own faith, trying, in effect, to hijack Islam itself. The enemy of America is not our many Muslim friends; it is not our many Arab friends. Our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them.”
President George W. Bush’s Address to a Joint Session of Congress and the American People
United States Capitol, Washington, D.C.
September 20, 2001
 

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Maybe you could give us a synopsis of what "Islamism" and "Christianityism" actually are. For example, is it only Islamism that has spilled blood down through history? Or is Christianityism also responsible for shedding blood down through history?

Also, could you give us an idea of who the God of Islamism and who the God of Christianityism are? Is one of these Gods lesser than the other? Does either God command their followers to kill?

Thank you for a timely response to these questions...


MarkoH said:
Nowadays here and there one can see people blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these people leave behind that American President has imposed a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism - pseudoreligion responsible for immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions. Many people think the 9/11 was a start-up of a new era. Don't fool yourself - it was only a development of the longstanding confrontation between two civilizations - Islamism and Christianity. God bless America to annihilate Islam as such! Nor it is essential that all Americans along with Christians and Hebrews around the world stand with America to make Islam pass into nothingness as the disgrace of mankind! United we stand!
 

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MarkoH said:
Nowadays here and there one can see people blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these people leave behind that American President has imposed a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism - pseudoreligion responsible for immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions. Many people think the 9/11 was a start-up of a new era. Don't fool yourself - it was only a development of the longstanding confrontation between two civilizations - Islamism and Christianity. God bless America to annihilate Islam as such! Nor it is essential that all Americans along with Christians and Hebrews around the world stand with America to make Islam pass into nothingness as the disgrace of mankind! United we stand!
Wow. That was really hateful :\

Few questions for ya, since you seem to be an expert on religions:

– What exactly makes Islamism "pseudoreligion?"

– How is Islamism to blame for an "immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions?" (please keep in mind the Inquisition)

– How do you explain Islam and Christianity worshiping the same God?

– How do you explain Jesus being such a prominent religious figure in Islam?

– Why would you think that God would support the genocide of a peoples that follow him/her/it? ("God bless America to annihilate Islam as such!")

– And finally, why is it official government agenda to have the "American President impose a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism?"

You're not going to be able to adequatley answer any of these question, but I urge you to try. Most likely some bigot like you will...

1) Never post in this thread again
2) Post here, but ignore these tough questions that point out how stupid you look.
3) Post an editorial defense of your position, just reinstating your dumbass assertions and thinking this actually proves anything except that you can't back up what you say.
 

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Originally posted by IValueFreedom:
1) Never post in this thread again
2) Post here, but ignore these tough questions that point out how stupid you look.
3) Post an editorial defense of your position, just reinstating your dumbass assertions and thinking this actually proves anything except that you can't back up what you say.
My sentiments exactly. Also, wasn't the Spanish Inquisition done in the name of Christianity?
 

IValueFreedom

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Billo_Really said:
Also, wasn't the Spanish Inquisition done in the name of Christianity?
"– How is Islamism to blame for an "immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions?" (please keep in mind the Inquisition)"

Yeah, it was. That's the Inquisition that I was referencing to :)
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by IValueFreedom:
"– How is Islamism to blame for an "immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions?" (please keep in mind the Inquisition)"

Yeah, it was. That's the Inquisition that I was referencing to :)
I think blaming the religion as a source of terror is wrong. Islamism and Christianity carry equal weight with me. And I was raised a Catholic.

The way it was explained to me by a muslim, is that the suicide bombers and others that export terror, are not muslims. Because Islam prohibits the taking of a life. I'm not an expert, that's what he told me.
 

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religion ultimately isn't the cause of terrorism. Atleast 99 percent of it, i bet isn't purely caused by religion. Most of it is caused by polticial leaders using religion to drive their own goals. The case is like this. Saudi People are oppressed. US backs the oppressive regime. Saudi people hate their regime. They begin to hate the US. People like bin laden started off as heroes, fighting against these evils. But power and riches becomes the priorities for these guys, not religion. So Bin Laden can be sitting there preying on these oppressed guys feeding them relgious bullshit and turning them into monsters. Then he says the source of your problems is obviously the US since they back our kings. Fight in the name of Allah against all that is wrong. The terrorism may have religious reasons, but Bin Laden really knows what he's doin. He prob doesn't believe in that religious bullshit like the guys who blow themselves up.

So you tell me. Is the religion whats wrong? Or just the overwhelming economic problems and political corruption.
 

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Still comes down to religion no matter how one slices it. Morality is a religious concept. My morality is more moral than your morality, sort of thing.

One over-riding problem exists, imo, and that is: Everyone goes around defending their true God. Should it not be that everyone's true God should be defending their adherents?

Is it the simple truth of the matter that everyone's true Gods are whimps, unable to defend thrmselves?

I'm still looking for a true God that doesn't need defending.

I'm also still looking for a Constitution worth defending: one that doesn't break at the mere whim of would-be tyrants and dictators.

Anyone know where I can find either?
 

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nkgupta80 said:
religion ultimately isn't the cause of terrorism. Atleast 99 percent of it, i bet isn't purely caused by religion. Most of it is caused by polticial leaders using religion to drive their own goals ...

So you tell me. Is the religion whats wrong? Or just the overwhelming economic problems and political corruption.
I have heard several reports that Islam (like Christianity) truly does include the now-or-later destruction of people determined to be infidels, but, maybe the other reports of Islam being a peaceful religion actually are true. Either way, and as allegedly justified by concerns related to global commons -- land, air, water and other politically- or economically-beneficial resources (such as oil or whatever) -- man seeks to rule as he believes right, and he believes it just to destroy others who do not cease resisting him:

---
From: "President Declares 'Freedom at War with Fear'"
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

THE PRESIDENT:
... Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make: Either you are with us [pluralists], or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.)
...
This is the world's fight ... civilization's fight ... of all who believe in ... pluralism ...
---

Does that help to explain why “fundamental (non-pluralistic) Islam” now has to go, and why fundamental Christianity and Judaism are on that same eradication list?
 

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Joe7000 said:
I'm still looking for a true God that doesn't need defending.

I'm also still looking for a Constitution worth defending: one that doesn't break at the mere whim of would-be tyrants and dictators.

Anyone know where I can find either?
Yes: Torah and YHWH.
 

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MarkoH said:
Nowadays here and there one can see people blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. But these people leave behind that American President has imposed a very complicated but responsible and honorable mission of saving the world from spreading Islamism - pseudoreligion responsible for immense amount of pain, bloodshed and devastation in much greater scale than other religions. Many people think the 9/11 was a start-up of a new era. Don't fool yourself - it was only a development of the longstanding confrontation between two civilizations - Islamism and Christianity. God bless America to annihilate Islam as such! Nor it is essential that all Americans along with Christians and Hebrews around the world stand with America to make Islam pass into nothingness as the disgrace of mankind! United we stand!

hahah!!

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you write 'Islamism'!?? hAHAHA!! I have to admit that was funny, but to your comment: America is the ULTIMATE terrorist. We've killed more than 8 MILLION civilians since WWII, we're the bullies of the planet, always sticking our noses into everyone else business but ONLY when there is something for us to gain, which is why we let Milosovich and Rwanda & Sudan get away with it for so long. NO CASH cow there.

But your comment is bogus because Islam and Christianity are synonymous and christianity and terrorism are fast becoming synonymous as well. Every war is about one of 3 things: GOD, LAND, or OIL, and the war in Iraq is no different because it is about God and Oil. If bu$h had a problem with terrorists then you'd THINK that he would at least pay his own bogus anti-terrorism laws into effect and stop kissing the butts of the Saudi's who have been aiding and supporting terrorists all along -- but it was only a few weeks ago when he was kissing them! And also tell me WHY he would give the Taliban 200 MILLION dollars in 2001? Almost as if he was paying to have the WTC destroyed on 9/11. He's a master at deception and through the corporate media he has 'programmed' the rest of the US to believe in his ridiculous lies. Why do you think they call them 'programs' to begin with??
 

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sissy-boy said:
How can you expect to be taken seriously when you write 'Islamism'!??
Umm... that is an excepted nomenclature.


Islamism means:

the faith of Islam

-or-

an Islamic movement, generally more conservative, to bring literal interpretations of Islamic values into all aspects of life.
 

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almost no war, esp in the modern era has been fought solely against an ideology. Economic/military reasons always underly it. Morals are hardly taken into consideration in international politics.
 

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IValueFreedom said:
Umm... that is an excepted nomenclature.


Islamism means:

the faith of Islam

-or-

an Islamic movement, generally more conservative, to bring literal interpretations of Islamic values into all aspects of life.
I've never heard anyone say that. I suppose it is normal, I usually think of 'Islam' as a 'more than one' when I think of Muslim political and religious groups as a whole.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
almost no war, esp in the modern era has been fought solely against an ideology. Economic/military reasons always underly it ...
Yes, that is so, and I hope I did not leave the impression that the so-called "War On Terrorism" was allegedly only about that. Rather, at least certain global residents have been stirred against so-called "radical Islam (or 'extremist Muslims')" mostly as a smokescreen (I believe) for whatever else that "war" is *truly* about -- I do not claim to know -- while non-pluralistic Muslims are nevertheless put on notice and pursued, as seemingly justified by 9-11.

nkgupta80 said:
Morals are hardly taken into consideration in international politics.
Agreed ... and that is at least one reason Bush had no problem saying the rest of the world is either with the pluralists or with the terrorists.
 
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