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"Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women

KLATTU

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The “gender wage gap” is as real as unicorns and has been killed more times than Michael Myers.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-st...ed-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/
"...Remember, if we truly want to measure the impact of sexism on male and female relative earnings, we want to look at men and women doing exactly the same job at exactly the same place. Fortunately, a new study by Valentin Bolotnyy and Natalia Emanuel of Harvard University—again, listed in that order because that is how they are presented in their paper—does just this."

think this will stop Dems from pandering and wildly misreading stats?NAHHHHHHHHHH
 

Grim17

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The “gender wage gap” is as real as unicorns and has been killed more times than Michael Myers.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-st...ed-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/
"...Remember, if we truly want to measure the impact of sexism on male and female relative earnings, we want to look at men and women doing exactly the same job at exactly the same place. Fortunately, a new study by Valentin Bolotnyy and Natalia Emanuel of Harvard University—again, listed in that order because that is how they are presented in their paper—does just this."

think this will stop Dems from pandering and wildly misreading stats?NAHHHHHHHHHH

Most of us already knew this, but it's nice that we now have a study for the deniers out there.

Jordan Peterson has been saying basically the same thing as that study for years.

.
 

Grokmaster

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We had female employees of a significant DOT contractor here, raising holy hell when they found out than some male employees, who had been there for roughly the same amount of time as the women, being paid almost half-again as much. Oh, the OUTRAGE!!

Upon further investigation, it was revealed that the women were stop/go/slow sign holders, and the men they were complaining about were HIGH BRIDGE PAINTERS.

The "oppressed women", apparently, didn't grasp the HUGE DISPARITY in SKILL, KNOWLEDGE, and DANGER between the two jobs.
 

BrainNebula

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Most of us already knew this, but it's nice that we now have a study for the deniers out there.

Jordan Peterson has been saying basically the same thing as that study for years.

.

If you're getting your information on this from Jordan Peterson, you are decades late on the issue. Warren Farrell and others have talked extensively about this, and the issue probably even predates him.
 

Grim17

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If you're getting your information on this from Jordan Peterson, you are decades late on the issue. Warren Farrell and others have talked extensively about this, and the issue probably even predates him.

I just mentioned it in passing... The point is, many of us knew the gender pay gap was bogus before there was any study that confirmed it.
 

Grim17

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Talk about a thread being ignored... LMAO

/
 

Nickyjo

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The “gender wage gap” is as real as unicorns and has been killed more times than Michael Myers.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-st...ed-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/
"...Remember, if we truly want to measure the impact of sexism on male and female relative earnings, we want to look at men and women doing exactly the same job at exactly the same place. Fortunately, a new study by Valentin Bolotnyy and Natalia Emanuel of Harvard University—again, listed in that order because that is how they are presented in their paper—does just this."

think this will stop Dems from pandering and wildly misreading stats?NAHHHHHHHHHH

It's always good to check other articles when presented with a source that claims to debunk or promote a point of view. Thus I went to the FEE and tried to find an article where they take a liberal/left position on an issue. Hard to do. Doesn't mean their data was wrong, but would be more believable if they had a background in, say, advocacy for women's rights in other contexts. That wouldn't taint their message here; it would enhance it.

That said, sometimes this is a chicken/egg situation: do women tend to certain jobs because other women are employed there, b/c it's lighter work, do employers in those positions seek out women employees cause they can pay them less, are more docile, or is certain type of work valued less? I used to investigate wage discrimination years ago, and discovered one sneaky technique with respect to certain professional positions -- employees were forbidden to discuss salaries with one another. Once women started talking, they realized they were being ripped off and things changed. That was in the early decades of the civil rights laws, and I assume that employers are more enlightened or more savvy these days. But some old habits die hard. The issue is still worth discussion.
 

KLATTU

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I, but would be more believable if they had a background in, say, advocacy for women's rights in other contexts. That wouldn't taint their message here; it would enhance it.
.
It would most assuredty taint it.
FEE are neither right wing or left wing advoacy groups. They are libertarian, which means they aren't shills for either party( like woman's advocacy groups and most Harvard faculty )

That's why the auther quoted a Harvard study. Not exactly a bastion of rw thought.

I looked up the 2 authors of this study and one of them is young -not sure about he other. So maybe they are actually being serious researchers now. (Unfortunately that will probably change. )

To be fair though ,a 7 grade student would know that 80 cents on the dollar stat ( and how it's derived ) is laughable.
 

Nickyjo

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It would most assuredty taint it.
FEE are neither right wing or left wing advoacy groups. They are libertarian, which means they aren't shills for either party( like woman's advocacy groups and most Harvard faculty )

That's why the auther quoted a Harvard study. Not exactly a bastion of rw thought.

I looked up the 2 authors of this study and one of them is young -not sure about he other. So maybe they are actually being serious researchers now. (Unfortunately that will probably change. )

To be fair though ,a 7 grade student would know that 80 cents on the dollar stat ( and how it's derived ) is laughable.

Simple question: have they been advocates against discrimination? Many libertarians are decidedly indifferent to laws prohibiting it, tho personally not biased.
 

Visbek

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The “gender wage gap” is as real as unicorns and has been killed more times than Michael Myers.

https://fee.org/articles/harvard-st...ed-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/
Uh huh. Did'ja read the original report?

Women today earn just 49 cents to the typical men’s dollar, much less than
the 80 cents usually reported.
When measured by total earnings across the
most recent 15 years for all workers who worked in at least one year, women
workers’ earnings were 49 percent—less than half—of men’s earnings, a wage
gap of 51 percent in 2015. Progress has slowed in the last 15 years relative to the
preceding 30 years in the study....

The long-term gender earnings gap has narrowed since 1968, but it has by no
means disappeared. In 2015, the gender earnings gap remained large when
applied to all female and male workers, including those who work part-time or
part-year and have years of not working, and measured over the long term. These
results indicate that there is still more to do if women are to have equal pay with
men over the course of their working lives....

Economists Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn
(2013) show that the United States lags behind comparably wealthy nations
in providing protections and supports, such as paid family leave and
subsidized child care, and, as a result, women’s labor force participation
lags here compared with other countries. Fewer women work for pay and
their time out of the paid workforce reduces their pay when working, as is
shown below, as well as their lifetime earnings. The failure of public policies
to address the caregiving needs of both women and men leads to lower
earnings for anyone who misses a year of work.
https://iwpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/C474_IWPR-Still-a-Mans-Labor-Market-update-2018-1.pdf
(Emphasis added)

I.e. key points of the report:
• The pay gap is worse than reported.
• It has improved over time (i.e. it's not static, as one might expect if there was "no gender pay gap")
• Other nations have smaller gender pay gaps, because of policies that help women get back to work
• Women are penalized more than men for taking time out of the labor force. It isn't just that "women spend more time raising kids," it's that they are not treated equally for employment gaps (regardless of the reason).

If anyone is "misreading the stats," it's the authors of the FEE article. That's some pretty astounding cherry-picking right there.
 

braindrain

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Simple question: have they been advocates against discrimination? Many libertarians are decidedly indifferent to laws prohibiting it, tho personally not biased.

And you don’t think that people who are advocates for anything have built in bias to support what they are advocates for. Really come on now.
 

braindrain

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Uh huh. Did'ja read the original report?

Women today earn just 49 cents to the typical men’s dollar, much less than
the 80 cents usually reported.
When measured by total earnings across the
most recent 15 years for all workers who worked in at least one year, women
workers’ earnings were 49 percent—less than half—of men’s earnings, a wage
gap of 51 percent in 2015. Progress has slowed in the last 15 years relative to the
preceding 30 years in the study....

The long-term gender earnings gap has narrowed since 1968, but it has by no
means disappeared. In 2015, the gender earnings gap remained large when
applied to all female and male workers, including those who work part-time or
part-year and have years of not working, and measured over the long term. These
results indicate that there is still more to do if women are to have equal pay with
men over the course of their working lives....

Economists Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn
(2013) show that the United States lags behind comparably wealthy nations
in providing protections and supports, such as paid family leave and
subsidized child care, and, as a result, women’s labor force participation
lags here compared with other countries. Fewer women work for pay and
their time out of the paid workforce reduces their pay when working, as is
shown below, as well as their lifetime earnings. The failure of public policies
to address the caregiving needs of both women and men leads to lower
earnings for anyone who misses a year of work.
https://iwpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/C474_IWPR-Still-a-Mans-Labor-Market-update-2018-1.pdf
(Emphasis added)

I.e. key points of the report:
• The pay gap is worse than reported.
• It has improved over time (i.e. it's not static, as one might expect if there was "no gender pay gap")
• Other nations have smaller gender pay gaps, because of policies that help women get back to work
• Women are penalized more than men for taking time out of the labor force. It isn't just that "women spend more time raising kids," it's that they are not treated equally for employment gaps (regardless of the reason).

If anyone is "misreading the stats," it's the authors of the FEE article. That's some pretty astounding cherry-picking right there.

So women should earn just a much as men despite the fact that they do different jobs and take more time off to raise kids. And they should earn that just because they are women. Thank you for demonstrating you really don't understand this issue.
 

Grim17

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Uh huh. Did'ja read the original report?

Women today earn just 49 cents to the typical men’s dollar, much less than
the 80 cents usually reported.
When measured by total earnings across the
most recent 15 years for all workers who worked in at least one year, women
workers’ earnings were 49 percent—less than half—of men’s earnings, a wage
gap of 51 percent in 2015. Progress has slowed in the last 15 years relative to the
preceding 30 years in the study....

The long-term gender earnings gap has narrowed since 1968, but it has by no
means disappeared. In 2015, the gender earnings gap remained large when
applied to all female and male workers, including those who work part-time or
part-year and have years of not working, and measured over the long term. These
results indicate that there is still more to do if women are to have equal pay with
men over the course of their working lives....

Economists Francine Blau and Lawrence Kahn
(2013) show that the United States lags behind comparably wealthy nations
in providing protections and supports, such as paid family leave and
subsidized child care, and, as a result, women’s labor force participation
lags here compared with other countries. Fewer women work for pay and
their time out of the paid workforce reduces their pay when working, as is
shown below, as well as their lifetime earnings. The failure of public policies
to address the caregiving needs of both women and men leads to lower
earnings for anyone who misses a year of work.
https://iwpr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/C474_IWPR-Still-a-Mans-Labor-Market-update-2018-1.pdf
(Emphasis added)

I.e. key points of the report:
• The pay gap is worse than reported.
• It has improved over time (i.e. it's not static, as one might expect if there was "no gender pay gap")
• Other nations have smaller gender pay gaps, because of policies that help women get back to work
• Women are penalized more than men for taking time out of the labor force. It isn't just that "women spend more time raising kids," it's that they are not treated equally for employment gaps (regardless of the reason).

If anyone is "misreading the stats," it's the authors of the FEE article. That's some pretty astounding cherry-picking right there.

Here's the problem with that study:

The Institute for Women’s Policy Research study fails to account for these differences. Indeed, its authors are airily dismissive of analysis that takes into account “occupational differences or so-called ‘women’s choices.’”

Its headline claim is that the 80 cents figure is wrong; in fact, women earn more like 49 cents for each dollar a man earns. The authors, Stephen J. Rose and Heidi I. Hartmann—listed in that order because that is how it is presented on the cover of their report, not because of sexism—arrive at this conclusion by taking a longitudinal dataset from 2001-2015 and measuring average annual earnings across the period for people who worked any amount during any of these years, and then comparing the overall averages for male and female workers, as well as for different subsets of men and women. Workers who were employed full-time for the entire 15-year period are lumped in with those who worked only part-time or occasionally.

Rather than starting with an observation (that 80-cent statistic) and examining possible causes, Hartmann and Rose have simply assumed a cause (rampant sexism) and carried out a slightly grander version of the back-of-a-cigarette-box calculation to support it. This isn’t how social science research should be done. It is exactly the wrong way round.
 

poweRob

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We had female employees of a significant DOT contractor here, raising holy hell when they found out than some male employees, who had been there for roughly the same amount of time as the women, being paid almost half-again as much. Oh, the OUTRAGE!!

Upon further investigation, it was revealed that the women were stop/go/slow sign holders, and the men they were complaining about were HIGH BRIDGE PAINTERS.

The "oppressed women", apparently, didn't grasp the HUGE DISPARITY in SKILL, KNOWLEDGE, and DANGER between the two jobs.

I just don't understand why more women don't vote for conservatives... it's all just a big mystery.
 

ecofarm

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"Them stoopid wimmins just don't be making the right choices!"

No. A gender wage gap exists for identical jobs, resume and seniority.
 

Nickyjo

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And you don’t think that people who are advocates for anything have built in bias to support what they are advocates for. Really come on now.

Guilty as charged. I have a bias against discrimination, as does the law I helped enforce back in the day. I assume you do as well, or you should be lobbying for repeal of civil rights legislation.
 

Visbek

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So women should earn just a much as men despite the fact that they do different jobs and take more time off to raise kids. And they should earn that just because they are women. Thank you for demonstrating you really don't understand this issue.
:roll:

Try reading the report -- or at least my post.
 

Grim17

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I just don't understand why more women don't vote for conservatives... it's all just a big mystery.

Maybe it's because they believe the lie they're told by Democrats that they make less money because they are the victims of male oppression?
 

Grim17

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"Them stoopid wimmins just don't be making the right choices!"

No. A gender wage gap exists for identical jobs, resume and seniority.

The wage gap between men and women is based on a whole host of things, and discrimination isn't a factor that's prominent among them.
 

ecofarm

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The wage gap between men and women is based on a whole host of things, and discrimination isn't a factor that's prominent among them.

Idiotic.
 

BrainNebula

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So women should earn just a much as men despite the fact that they do different jobs and take more time off to raise kids. And they should earn that just because they are women. Thank you for demonstrating you really don't understand this issue.

Taking time off doesn't even account for the difference between how much men and women work in a typical week. Warren Farrell has been talking about how men work 9 hours longer per week in full-time work and commute 2 hours longer. Taking care of the children doesn't account for that big of a difference. Most people don't realize that the gender gap is doing nothing more than taking the amount of hours men work and dividing that by the number of men, then taking the number of hours women work and dividing that by the number of women. It's really shallow stuff. The Democratic Party pushing this has become a party for women. They will push power for women and will stand against men every chance they get. Any man considering being a Democrat needs to consider just how much they are hurting themselves with that vote. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pPGijYBaVE
 

Chillfolks

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The old saying goes a woman's work is never done.

Maybe that's why she is paid less
 

poweRob

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Maybe it's because they believe the lie they're told by Democrats that they make less money because they are the victims of male oppression?

So now you are calling women simpleton dupes. And the mystery continues.
 
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