• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Gender fluid athletes in sports

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Some people identify as gender fluid - which means that their gender identity changes over time. They can be man one day, both the next, woman another day, agender another day, pangender another day, intergender (between genders), etc. etc.

So, ought a gender fluid athlete be competing in men's or women's leagues? Does it depend on whether at the time of a competition the person identifies as man or woman, or something else?

A trans person who was born "cisgender male," and who transitions to gender fluid, can they compete in the women's league and the men's league, if their gender fluidity includes both man and woman?
 

NatMorton

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
26,556
Reaction score
13,015
Location
Greater Boston Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Some people identify as gender fluid - which means that their gender identity changes over time. They can be man one day, both the next, woman another day, agender another day, pangender another day, intergender (between genders), etc. etc.

So, ought a gender fluid athlete be competing in men's or women's leagues? Does it depend on whether at the time of a competition the person identifies as man or woman, or something else?

A trans person who was born "cisgender male," and who transitions to gender fluid, can they compete in the women's league and the men's league, if their gender fluidity includes both man and woman?
Some people identify as Napoleon Bonaparte.

Self identification is one thing. Reality is often quite another.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Some people identify as Napoleon Bonaparte.

Self identification is one thing. Reality is often quite another

Of course, but for those that say that a person should be allowed to compete in any sport based on their "gender identity," then I think it's a fair question - what about "gender fluid" people? Are they chop livah? Do they not have the same rights as other "trans" people? Do they not have the right to compete in the "gender" they identify as, even though they may be a man in the morning and a woman at night?

If Lia Thomas was "gender fluid" instead of "gender (trans) woman" would Thomas still be allowed to compete and break all the women's records? Should Thomas be permitted to do so?

And, if gender is something people are "born with," and there are "gender fluid" people then this isn't a "nonissue," for the translobby, right? I mean, they would be making the same argument that they descry as phobic and hateful - they would be saying "oh, come on! that's only 0.X% - a tiny portion - of the population!" If the gender fluid don't have equal rights, nobody does, right? (asking the folks who are adamant about transwomen competing against girls and women in women's sports)
 

BirdinHand

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
11,506
Reaction score
11,751
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
The next post in this sub forum is about this topic and has over 2K replies.
 

NatMorton

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
26,556
Reaction score
13,015
Location
Greater Boston Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Of course, but for those that say that a person should be allowed to compete in any sport based on their "gender identity," then I think it's a fair question - what about "gender fluid" people? Are they chop livah? Do they not have the same rights as other "trans" people? Do they not have the right to compete in the "gender" they identify as, even though they may be a man in the morning and a woman at night?

If Lia Thomas was "gender fluid" instead of "gender (trans) woman" would Thomas still be allowed to compete and break all the women's records? Should Thomas be permitted to do so?

And, if gender is something people are "born with," and there are "gender fluid" people then this isn't a "nonissue," for the translobby, right? I mean, they would be making the same argument that they descry as phobic and hateful - they would be saying "oh, come on! that's only 0.X% - a tiny portion - of the population!" If the gender fluid don't have equal rights, nobody does, right? (asking the folks who are adamant about transwomen competing against girls and women in women's sports)
The entire issue is nonsense. Post-pubescent women are not segregated from men in sports because of gender-specific societal norms; it's not skirts on one side trousers on the other. They are segregated to create fair competition and, depending on the contact level of the sport in question, physical safety.

Those arguing that biological men ought to be free to compete with biological women are truly some of the dumbest people on the planet and deserve to be called out as such.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
The next post in this sub forum is about this topic and has over 2K replies.
This is a more specific topic. That thread is specifically about the transgender swimmer who identifies as a woman. This thread is specifically about "gender fluid" people.
 

NatMorton

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
26,556
Reaction score
13,015
Location
Greater Boston Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This is a more specific topic. That thread is specifically about the transgender swimmer who identifies as a woman. This thread is specifically about "gender fluid" people.
Are they also biologically fluid? If not, then their athletic classification is easily determined.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
The entire issue is nonsense. Post-pubescent women are not segregated from men in sports because of gender-specific societal norms; it's not skirts on one side trousers on the other. They are segregated to create fair competition and, depending on the contact level of the sport in question, physical safety.

Those arguing that biological men ought to be free to compete with biological women are truly some of the dumbest people on the planet and deserve to be called out as such.

These discussions tend to devolve, however, into personal attacks, with the pro-trans in women's sports folks declaring various phobias and hate, and the other side mocking the pro-trans in sports folks for their lack of logic or intelligence, etc.

I was trying to come up with a specific discussion topic here that can be used as an illustration of why I oppose the pro-trans-in-women's-sports position. Applying their rationale, a gender fluid person who identifies man one day and woman the next day should be able to compete in both men's and women's sports, depending on the day. And, if their answer is "no, that's ridiculous!" the question becomes "why? don't they have the right to participate in the sport competition matching their gender?" And, if the answer to that is "no" then then question becomes, what league can they play in? The one matching their ..... biological sex? Or, none?

It's a good thought exercise. In the 1980s, this example, I think, would have been given for open discussion in my college philosophy class. Today, however, no doubt, there is something phobic or hateful about me even bringing it up.
 

NatMorton

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
26,556
Reaction score
13,015
Location
Greater Boston Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
These discussions tend to devolve, however, into personal attacks, with the pro-trans in women's sports folks declaring various phobias and hate, and the other side mocking the pro-trans in sports folks for their lack of logic or intelligence, etc.

I was trying to come up with a specific discussion topic here that can be used as an illustration of why I oppose the pro-trans-in-women's-sports position. Applying their rationale, a gender fluid person who identifies man one day and woman the next day should be able to compete in both men's and women's sports, depending on the day. And, if their answer is "no, that's ridiculous!" the question becomes "why? don't they have the right to participate in the sport competition matching their gender?" And, if the answer to that is "no" then then question becomes, what league can they play in? The one matching their ..... biological sex? Or, none?

It's a good thought exercise. In the 1980s, this example, I think, would have been given for open discussion in my college philosophy class. Today, however, no doubt, there is something phobic or hateful about me even bringing it up.
I get what you're doing, and it's a perfectly reasonable argument to make. But that does not mean the idiocy of trans-politics shouldn't be called out for what it is.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Are they also biologically fluid? If not, then their athletic classification is easily determined.
I agree. But, the thought experiment here is to apply the logic of the pro-transgender-in-women's-sports argument, which is that the biological sex is not to be the determining factor, but rather it is to be the gender identity only, and that everyone has the "right" to compete in sports competitions matching their gender identity (and that their biological sex "assigned" at birth doesn't mean anything in this regard).

If one bases the distinction in leagues based on "Sex" - as has been the tradition for hundreds of years - then the dividing line is bright. Are you female - ok, go play female sports. But if the premise is that the distinction is based on "gender identity" then the question of what to do with a gender fluid identity athlete arises. Do we do nothing? They don't get to compete? Or, can they just choose which one? What if they identify as a man on the day the athlete is set to compete as a woman?

Obviously, this is not going to be a common experience, but again, under the trans-in-women's-sports argument, the fact that we're only talk about a tiny portion of the population, just the odd few here and there, doesn't matter. The entirety of our sports systems need to be re-worked because of the "gender idenity" argument for the few transgender men-to-women folks to participate in women's sports. So, what are the gender fluid? Chop livah?
 

BirdinHand

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
11,506
Reaction score
11,751
Location
New Jersey
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
I believe the Olympics have stated testosterone levels as a “benchmark”.

The NCAA seems to have one year of hormone suppression therapy as a benchmark…and last I read was considering hormone levels.

Maybe in recreational or school level sports this might be a conversation- but collegiate and Olympic sports have already set standards dictating that XYZ level of hormone/time must exist before a person can compete in athletics for the sex that they identify with (and in some instances, have barred individuals with genetic conditions from competition also)

I fully expect the NCAA to move more towards the Olympics and include specific thresholds in their policies moving forwards specifically due to the Thomas/Penn swimming situation.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I get what you're doing, and it's a perfectly reasonable argument to make. But that does not mean the idiocy of trans-politics shouldn't be called out for what it is.
10-4, but I truly am hoping for an answer from that side of the argument. What is there manner of addressing that? I haven't heard it brought up anywhere, which is surprising to me. I think in a past age, when we had guys like William F. Buckley, Jr. having hour long detailed, but very calm and professional, conversations on shows like Firing Line, where arguments were explored in depth and with such thought experiments being quite common, this kind of thing would have come up. But, nowadays, the political discourse on the airwaves is limited to soundbites and shouting back and forth, tactics for avoiding answering questions, and strawmanning the opposition.

A frustrating example of that is the argument now about the Florida law that prohibits school districts from encouraging classroom discussion of sexual orientation (any orientation) and gender identity (any identity) among 4 year olds to 8 year olds in school classrooms. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/Filed/PDF The folks outraged by this law call it the "don't say gay" bill and claim it is phobic and hateful, when the text just says what it says, and does not prohibit anyone from "saying" gay. And, now the folks supporting the bill are adopting a similar tactic, calling it the "anti-groomer bill/law". And what results is that nobody talks about exactly what the law says.
 

NatMorton

Suspended
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
26,556
Reaction score
13,015
Location
Greater Boston Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
10-4, but I truly am hoping for an answer from that side of the argument. What is there manner of addressing that? I haven't heard it brought up anywhere, which is surprising to me. I think in a past age, when we had guys like William F. Buckley, Jr. having hour long detailed, but very calm and professional, conversations on shows like Firing Line, where arguments were explored in depth and with such thought experiments being quite common, this kind of thing would have come up. But, nowadays, the political discourse on the airwaves is limited to soundbites and shouting back and forth, tactics for avoiding answering questions, and strawmanning the opposition.

A frustrating example of that is the argument now about the Florida law that prohibits school districts from encouraging classroom discussion of sexual orientation (any orientation) and gender identity (any identity) among 4 year olds to 8 year olds in school classrooms. https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/Filed/PDF The folks outraged by this law call it the "don't say gay" bill and claim it is phobic and hateful, when the text just says what it says, and does not prohibit anyone from "saying" gay. And, now the folks supporting the bill are adopting a similar tactic, calling it the "anti-groomer bill/law". And what results is that nobody talks about exactly what the law says.
IMO, if you get an answer from that side of the debate, it will not be a rational argument. It will be closer to ad hominem.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I believe the Olympics have stated testosterone levels as a “benchmark”.

The NCAA seems to have one year of hormone suppression therapy as a benchmark…and last I read was considering hormone levels.

Maybe in recreational or school level sports this might be a conversation- but collegiate and Olympic sports have already set standards dictating that XYZ level of hormone/time must exist before a person can compete in athletics for the sex that they identify with (and in some instances, have barred individuals with genetic conditions from competition also)

I fully expect the NCAA to move more towards the Olympics and include specific thresholds in their policies moving forwards specifically due to the Thomas/Penn swimming situation.

Of course they have, which means they aren't basing the right to compete on "gender identity", but rather on what the trans-lobby says has nothing to do with one's gender, namely testosterone level.

They have set standards, which are still being debated and argued against by both sides of this debate. This question is not about what the Olympics currently have as their standard. This discussion is about the pro-transgenderwomen- in-women's-sports argument and what that side of the debate is advocating for and why.

If we go to thresholds of testosterone as the benchmarks, then we're not really allowing everyone to compete in the sport that matches their "gender identity," are we? I mean, as we are told, gender identity is in the mind, not the body. So, a person could conceivably meet those testosterone levels and still not gender identify as a woman. What if the person gender identifies as "agender" (not having any gender)? Does that person get to play women's sports, just because testosterone is low? If the answer is "yes," then we aren't basing competition on "gender" are we? We are basing it on "testosterone."
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
IMO, if you get an answer from that side of the debate, it will not be a rational argument. It will be closer to ad hominem.
That's been my experience. I expect an "oh, come on" or a diversion into another topic, or some iteration of the accusation that I'm making a mockery of their argument by pointing to an absurdity -- which, of course, is ironic, since that is what the people who oppose the pro-transwomen-in-women's-sports argument say about the idea of transgender man-to-woman participation in women's sports argument in the first place - that it is an incoherent absurdity.
 

Individual

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
9,208
Reaction score
2,357
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Just allow the existence or non-existence of the Y chromosome be what determines who one competes with.
 

Lisa

salem ac leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
26,376
Reaction score
16,503
Location
Ohio
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Just allow the existence or non-existence of the Y chromosome be what determines who one competes with.
According to you yo these are women,
dsc_0636_slide-12de188956ce20fc73e56c1903f3c59e597b5818.jpg

Some people identify as Napoleon Bonaparte.

Self identification is one thing. Reality is often quite another.
Is this the best that you can do for a slippery slope fallacy? Maybe you could have said that they identify as a tree, a gopher, or a tractor like conservatives did when the issue was LGBT marriage equality. You were just as wrong then, but it seems to make you happy to be wrong.
 

Individual

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
9,208
Reaction score
2,357
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
According to you yo these are women,




Is this the best that you can do for a slippery slope fallacy? Maybe you could have said that they identify as a tree, a gopher, or a tractor like conservatives did when the issue was LGBT marriage equality. You were just as wrong then, but it seems to make you happy to be wrong.

Are they XX males?

While it's often true, "A picture is worth a thousand words.", it's also true that there is no clear meaning derived from those words.
 

Schism

Destroyer of Propaganda
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 13, 2016
Messages
14,232
Reaction score
7,573
Location
Eugene, Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Remember kids, if they have an apple, they have a banana.
 

Gaius46

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Messages
17,604
Reaction score
10,326
Location
New York
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I believe the Olympics have stated testosterone levels as a “benchmark”.

The NCAA seems to have one year of hormone suppression therapy as a benchmark…and last I read was considering hormone levels.

Maybe in recreational or school level sports this might be a conversation- but collegiate and Olympic sports have already set standards dictating that XYZ level of hormone/time must exist before a person can compete in athletics for the sex that they identify with (and in some instances, have barred individuals with genetic conditions from competition also)

I fully expect the NCAA to move more towards the Olympics and include specific thresholds in their policies moving forwards specifically due to the Thomas/Penn swimming situation.
Just using testosterone levels is extremely problematic. It doesn’t account for the fact that biological males have more fast twitch muscle fibers, bigger hearts and lungs, longer levers and that strength gains from years of training with male testosterone levels aren’t completely erased because someone has their testosterone suppressed.
 

Lisa

salem ac leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
26,376
Reaction score
16,503
Location
Ohio
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Are they XX males?

While it's often true, "A picture is worth a thousand words.", it's also true that there is no clear meaning derived from those words.
They were born biologically female but with a male gender identity. That is why they are trans guys.
 

Individual

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Messages
9,208
Reaction score
2,357
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
They were born biologically female but with a male gender identity. That is why they are trans guys.
Is that a "Yes" answer to my question? I have no idea who they actually are.
 

Gatsby

Neoliberal Globalist Shill
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
4,686
Reaction score
4,501
Location
Cambridge, MA / Miami, FL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Some people identify as gender fluid - which means that their gender identity changes over time. They can be man one day, both the next, woman another day, agender another day, pangender another day, intergender (between genders), etc. etc.

So, ought a gender fluid athlete be competing in men's or women's leagues? Does it depend on whether at the time of a competition the person identifies as man or woman, or something else?

A trans person who was born "cisgender male," and who transitions to gender fluid, can they compete in the women's league and the men's league, if their gender fluidity includes both man and woman?
No. Men should compete in men's sports. It doesn't matter if they identify as a woman or an elephant or "genderfluid". The reason we have men's and women's sports is because men are physically stronger and it is unfair for them to compete against women. And inventing some goofy new pronoun for themselves does not negate that physical advantage.
 

MrNiceGuy

Symbiotic Pnemonic
Joined
Feb 2, 2022
Messages
7,426
Reaction score
3,274
Location
The Twilight Zone
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
No. Men should compete in men's sports. It doesn't matter if they identify as a woman or an elephant or "genderfluid". The reason we have men's and women's sports is because men are physically stronger and it is unfair for them to compete against women. And inventing some goofy new pronoun for themselves does not negate that physical advantage.
I think so, too, but based on the logic of those saying "everyone should be allowed to participate in the sport based on their gender identity....", it stands to reason that all this focus on hormones and such is misplaced (under their own logic). Because based on their logic, most trans people are not through their transitioning to whatever, and some don't simply go "male to female", so some are still excluded from participation.

What is the trans-lobby logic behind saying that Lia Thomas can now participate as a woman, but before reaching a testosterone goal Thomas was prohibited? Wasn't "she" a woman before testosterone reduction? And didn't "she" have a right to participate in accordance with her gender, even without hormone treatments?

When it comes to changing rooms and bathrooms in schools, in some schools they're letting people with penises and testicles change (i.e. expose themselves) to girls in school, because they have the "right" to go to a changing room in accordance with their "gender." But, they don't require testosterone reduction and hormones and surgery for them.

I think not enough attention is paid to the logical inconsistencies in trans-lobby's arguments.

Everyone in the media and politicians seem afraid to say "have all the gender identities you like, but sports are based on genetic/biological sex. Males in one league, females in another, and apply a special test for the few athletes who suffer from intersex conditions."
 

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
52,344
Reaction score
36,875
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Some people identify as gender fluid - which means that their gender identity changes over time. They can be man one day, both the next, woman another day, agender another day, pangender another day, intergender (between genders), etc. etc.

So, ought a gender fluid athlete be competing in men's or women's leagues? Does it depend on whether at the time of a competition the person identifies as man or woman, or something else?

A trans person who was born "cisgender male," and who transitions to gender fluid, can they compete in the women's league and the men's league, if their gender fluidity includes both man and woman?

That's not even close to what genderfluidity is. Educate yourself and get back to us.
 
Top Bottom