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Gee, Joe. I don't think that's actually your dream to have.

Is it a "problem" in your mind that 1/4 of all
white kids are in single parent homes, or is that not problematic to you.

Is it problematic to you that 14% of Hispanics don't graduate high school, or not an issue for you.

Is the fact that over 80% of whites are killed by other whites a problem in your mind? Or a-ok?

And if all those are ALSO problematic to some degree then exactly why just focus your "dream" on blacks and blacks alone unless you SPECIFICALLY want to make blacks alone look to have "problems"?

How about you start that thread, and again, post per capita statistics that pertain to the OP.

IF you did you would be able to identify real issues that pertain to the OPs topic

And no one is trying to make blacks look bad. Telling the truth about problems that afflict certain people disproportionately is just trying to address an issue that has been long ignored.

Post the per-capita statistics and maybe you'll understand where I'm comming from.
 
If someone is concerned about single parent families, then they should concentrate their efforts on white people because, when broken down by race, white is the most common race of single parent families. Whites make up more than 1/3 of all single parent families
Children in single-parent families by race | KIDS COUNT Data Center
 
Not that efforts aren't being made by people all through our society to deal with a lot of the issues noted in the OP, and not just in the black communities, but if people try to make the issues too big, too all incompassing, they become too hard or impossible to deal with. And by making them too big people just throw up their hands and say it can't be fixed.

I'll give you a simple example - here in Toronto, there's been a problem in social housing with gangs and drugs, etc., and normal low income and poor people who live in large social housing buildings are terrified and they don't feel safe in their homes. There are lots of such buildings and complexes. If you look at them all as one big problem the task of fixing it becomes virtually impossible. But a couple of months ago, over 1,000 police, paramedics, firemen, and others formed up and tackled one such building - they spent most of the night going through every apartment looking for drugs, guns, etc. - most of the residents cheered them on and let them in to search - where there was resistance, they broke the door down - the police rounded up dozens of gang members lots of guns, lots of drugs, hundreds of thousands if not millions in illegal cash profits from crime, packed it all up and cleared the building of scum - the residents were delighted and all the gang bangers and their enablers, you know the mommas who never saw their baby do nuthin wrong, were bitching and moaning, but the good people who matter got some justice and satisfaction.

Little steps, one at a time, can be built upon and lead to big accomplishments. That's the kind of dream I can believe in and I don't have to be any particular race to have it.
 
One, almost every stat that is poor for blacks is even worse for native Americans. So when you talk about the "worst first" that's a bit subjective.

Absolutely, we ought to address those as well, but let's be honest, Native Americans don't represent the same size demographic and often, unfortunately, they fall through the cracks. I'm not saying we ought to pay any less attention to any group that has any legitimate problem.

Two, I think a lot comes off in terms of authenticity. Yes, one could point at race. For example, this kind of thing goes over better for Bill Cosby. But it's not just race. It's presentation. The person in the op massively begins to wrap purely political rhetoric and partisan talking points into the list, helping to further push the perception that this isn't an honest desire to "help" black people with these issues but simply a politically inspired hatchet job aimed at degrading the target while looking like their trying to help.

You'd be surprised how many blacks attack people like Cosby and Lemon as race traitors and Uncle Toms because they dare to criticize the status quo of the black community. There are plenty of conservative black men who say the same thing and are absolutely attacked for daring to open their mouths. These are legitimate issues. It shouldn't matter who points them out.

Style, history, context, full content, a lot goes into the presentation...correct or not...of a persons intent and purpose.

The purpose of pointing out a problem is not to make people feel good about it, it is to correct it. I don't care if it makes people happy. I care if it makes them sit up and take notice.

My posts were beginning off the trail of posts of Fenton disagreeing with your assertion that this "dream" would be even better applied to EVERYONE, not just blacks, and his seeming disagreement with that notion.

And I agree entirely with you on that, but we have to start somewhere and it makes sense to start with the demonstrably biggest problem. That's not racist, that's reality.

Is single parents a big issue in the black community and could/should be address? Sure. But it's not so nonexistent in other races that it'd be irrelevant, wrong, or bad to suggest that's a good dream for everyone

But I haven't seen anyone making that claim. Nobody has said that this is only a black issue. It's just that it's an issue that is most predominant among blacks. That's the reality, whether it makes people happy or not. If blacks don't like that, they can SOLVE THE PROBLEM! It isn't like they haven't had generations to do it, but it keeps getting worse and every time someone even points out that it is a problem, they scream racism.

That, in and of itself is another, perhaps even bigger problem!
 
:rofl A dude from North Barrington Illinois telling the black people how they should behave is like a color-blind person telling Benjamin Moore what their color palettes should consist of.

Thank you!
 
Well, I didn't take it the way you have, but that doesn't mean you're wrong nor does it mean I'm wrong.

Would people have been more accepting of the message if it had come from a black conservative, say Allen West? Do you believe that MLK's message was flawed because he was an adulterer? Can a white person only hope for better for troubled black youth if he/she lumps white youth into the message of hope?

If you believe that the message above is factually inaccurate in some way, that's fair - but you don't need to knock it because it doesn't speak to every ill facing every American or every group of Americans in today's society.

I don't know what Walsh's purpose or intent is here - many are speculating - but since I don't know, I choose to look only at the words and whether or not they have some value.

In truth? I sincerely doubt that that is Joe Walsh's dream. I think he's playing the shame/blame game, and he sucks at it. Like I said in the OP - that's not his dream to have.

My dream, for instance, is that no child in America go hungry.
 
Sorry, never got back to the computer last night:)

Absolutely, we ought to address those as well, but let's be honest, Native Americans don't represent the same size demographic and often, unfortunately, they fall through the cracks. I'm not saying we ought to pay any less attention to any group that has any legitimate problem.

Absolutely. Then again, this goes back to my notion that it's very subjective. If you want to talk about size demographic then it can also complicate things. For example, if 75% of black children are with one parent and 25% of white children are with one parent, that still leads to 2 million more white children with one parents. A different "size demographic".

That said, I have no inherent issue with someone wanting to focus on a particular groups issues if I feel there's an honest desire to want to help and assist that group as the primary motivation for addressing it. I think you can go to/speak to Native Americans or Blacks or Whites or young people or geeks or poor people or football players or libertarians or baptists or any group and talk about issues directly as it relates to that group even if there's issues elsewhere. HOWEVER, anytime you make ANY comments the audience is going to make a decision on the worth of your words, and when speaking to a singular group the intent and genuineness of your comments are going to go into the reaction.

The intermixing of so many political messages, the pointedly emotional rhetoric sprinkled throughout, the inflammatory nature of utilizing MLK's speech as a means of telling blacks where they're doing poorly in this guys opinion doesn't really help provide a context where it's widely going to be accepted that his "dream" has anything to do with bettering the lives or helping blacks and everything to do with pushing his political positions.

You'd be surprised how many blacks attack people like Cosby and Lemon as race traitors and Uncle Toms because they dare to criticize the status quo of the black community. There are plenty of conservative black men who say the same thing and are absolutely attacked for daring to open their mouths. These are legitimate issues. It shouldn't matter who points them out.

No, I know there are a lot that attack Cosby for that kind of thing...and I've criticized those that do as well, as often MY personal opinion in terms of intent and presentation there are that those attacking Cosby tend to be the ones that are doing it for ulterior reasons rather than legitimate ones.

In a perfect world you're right...who and how things are said shouldn't matter at all. We don't live in a perfect world and people aren't perfect beings. People listening to a statement are going to make decisions, and people making statements may very well have ulterior motives.

The purpose of pointing out a problem is not to make people feel good about it, it is to correct it. I don't care if it makes people happy. I care if it makes them sit up and take notice.

Absolutely disagree. The purpose of pointing out a problem isn't to make people feel good about it, but it's also not simply to be "Correct" about it. The only worthwhile reason to point out a problem is in an effort to legitimate try and get that problem fixed.

If you're pointing out an issue just in a way to make everyone happy, you're probalby not actually accurately pointing out the problem and that isn't really going ot help correct it. If all you care about is being "correct" however, then you're ALSO not worried aobut convincing people you just want to have the ego stroke of patting yourself on the back going "haha, I spoke truth to them!"

Telling people about issues as a means of getting those issues corrected requires you to both honestly address the issues and put forth a convincing argument and reasoning as to why they needs to change.

WHO the messanger is, WHAT the message is, HOW the message is said, WHEN the message is said, etc ALL play into that notion.

A white conservative, mimicing MLK's famous speech on it's anniversary, singularly focusing on blacks, while using language like "planation" and "enslave", who slowly deviates from statistical backed notions to opinion based politically motivated statements is not going to effectively convince, inspire, or enlighten any nominal amount of “correction” to occur with the problem.

It’s funny that in his piece he talks about Juan Williams comments. Juan’s comments are an example of a situation where, had it been an average white person, I wouldn’t have thought twice about their motivations. In that situation the person was ASKED for his opinion on it with regards to MLK day, and he answered in a generalized way that both acknowledges the good realities AND the poor:

When asked by Chris Wallace if the dream has been fulfilled, Williams noted that there isn’t, “any question that [African Americans] have come along way,” before importantly pointing out that blacks have to address the problems that are created within their communities. “I think that if you look at the realities of today, you’ve got to talk about things like family breakdown,” Williams said. “You’ve got to talk about the fact that 70 percent of black children today are born out of wedlock. I think Dr. King would cry.”
No mimicking of King’s speech, no random divergence into political opinions, no inflammatory language…and yet still highlighting one of those issues that the individual in the OP was trying to highlight. He was both honest about the issue, correct about the issue, FAIR about the issue by not singularly harping on the bad, and compelling in presentation and style. His would be a useful and worthwhile comment seemingly honestly addressing the issues because he feels the ISSUES need to be address.


And I agree entirely with you on that, but we have to start somewhere and it makes sense to start with the demonstrably biggest problem. That's not racist, that's reality.

Well, I disagree we can only start in one place really in the grand scope of things…as well as my earlier point about the subjective nature of “biggest problem”….but that’s neither here nor there. My issue isn’t so much that he’s talking about blacks, but rather then entire context and method make me sincerely question the motivations and intent behind it as well as the effectiveness of it and thus its actual worth and value as a statement.

But I haven't seen anyone making that claim.

Really? You missed the person who responded to your post suggesting that we should remove “Black” and apply it to every single American everywhere by stating that would ignore the “substantial problems that exist in inner city communities” which he’s since gone on to clearly show means to him “black people”.

No one’s bluntly stated it’s only a black issue…but someone DID absolutely respond to your post in disagreement with the notion that it would be better said as a dream for everyone, and not just for “blacks/inner city community dwellers”.
 
So just for fun, I tried to take the OP article's views and statements and tried to turn them into a write up saying the same general thing, but in a way that I think would be more persuasive in a general sense. Not actually expecting much from this, and still figure most may disagree (not even sure I agere with all of it), but it was a fun little exercise and I figured why not post it:

This week is the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr’s famous “I have a dream” speech, and naturally there’s been a lot of discussion regarding that. In some ways I’m sure Dr. King would be pleasantly astounded. Fifty years ago could he have imagined, when talking of little girls and boys of both races holding hands in Alabama, that one day it’d be in the top 10 for states with marriages between the two races? Or that blacks would reach some of the highest positions in politics and business in this country, like President Obama or Ursula Burns the CEO of Xerox?

And yet it’s still clear that there is more that needs to be done to fulfill his dream. Despite lowering in the last 50 years, the poverty rate for blacks is still greater than that of whites. Wealth disparity still exists as well as educational disparity. Despite the improvements and advancements we have accomplished, there is no doubt in my mind Doctor King would feel there is still far more work that needs to be done.

However, I believe some of that saddness would be felt towards his own community, as there are portions of King’s speech that seemingly have been forgotten or glossed over in these past 50 years. So much of King’s speech focused around the children, and yet nearly 3/4ths of all black children grow up without a father and many end up addicted to drugs. He urged against violence when demanding something as vital as civil rights; what would he think of the abhorrent rate of blacks entering into gangs, or the horrible black on black violence so prevalent in the youth for far less vital reasons?

MLK stated that blacks must not walk alone and to “always march ahead”. Yet rather than striving to improve the community from within as society tries to improve it from without, there are those who feel it’s simply the government’s responsibility to fix all problems in their life. Many who claim leadership within the community seemingly drink “from the cup of bitterness and hatred”, always seeking a means of blaming “the system” and others singularly for any and all ills. MLK proudly proclaimed “let us not wallow in the valley of despair”; and yet, how many blacks have become content surviving off the welfare of the government rather than battling despair and striving for more while relying on their families, churches, and communities for support?

Fifty years have passed and as a society we have traveled far down the road, but there are still many miles to go. We can reach the end of this path, but to do so we must address the problems faced in all facets of life while walking hand in hand, stride for stride, together. The government alone cannot carry the black community to the end of this road any more than the black community could carry the government on it’s back till the end. We must work together, within and without, to continue to strive forward to make Doctor King's dreams a complete reality.
 
So just for fun, I tried to take the OP article's views and statements and tried to turn them into a write up saying the same general thing, but in a way that I think would be more persuasive in a general sense. Not actually expecting much from this, and still figure most may disagree (not even sure I agere with all of it), but it was a fun little exercise and I figured why not post it:

Wow! You mean people can actually talk about racial issues in this country without sounding like oblivious hyper-partisan retards?!?!?!? Who knew!
 
Absolutely. Then again, this goes back to my notion that it's very subjective. If you want to talk about size demographic then it can also complicate things. For example, if 75% of black children are with one parent and 25% of white children are with one parent, that still leads to 2 million more white children with one parents. A different "size demographic".

Of course, I have never said we shouldn't fix the problem across the board for everyone because it is equally a problem for everyone.

That said, I have no inherent issue with someone wanting to focus on a particular groups issues if I feel there's an honest desire to want to help and assist that group as the primary motivation for addressing it. I think you can go to/speak to Native Americans or Blacks or Whites or young people or geeks or poor people or football players or libertarians or baptists or any group and talk about issues directly as it relates to that group even if there's issues elsewhere. HOWEVER, anytime you make ANY comments the audience is going to make a decision on the worth of your words, and when speaking to a singular group the intent and genuineness of your comments are going to go into the reaction.

Which isn't what's happening here. Here, lots of people in the black community just don't want to hear about it from anyone, regardless of their genuineness, skin color, intent, etc. Hearing about it, acknowledging it as a problem, that means you have to act to fix it and they don't want to do that. It's easier to feign offense than to work to correct an issue.

The intermixing of so many political messages, the pointedly emotional rhetoric sprinkled throughout, the inflammatory nature of utilizing MLK's speech as a means of telling blacks where they're doing poorly in this guys opinion doesn't really help provide a context where it's widely going to be accepted that his "dream" has anything to do with bettering the lives or helping blacks and everything to do with pushing his political positions.

I'm not even talking just about this guy, they don't listen to anyone, no matter how the message is presented. They pay no attention to their own and when someone from their camp gives the same message, they deny that they're part of the camp anymore. I suspect that if MLK himself gave that message today, they'd toss him out on his ear as a race traitor.

No, I know there are a lot that attack Cosby for that kind of thing...and I've criticized those that do as well, as often MY personal opinion in terms of intent and presentation there are that those attacking Cosby tend to be the ones that are doing it for ulterior reasons rather than legitimate ones.

That's often true, people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton certainly do have an ulterior motive, they make money by keeping blacks poor and downtrodden and complaining about racism, that's their bread and butter. But the problem is, these are also the people that the black community listens to because they're spreading a message that the black community want to hear. they're telling them things that they want to believe, that nothing is their fault, that they deserve better, that it's all the white man's fault and the white man ought to pay. So long as those messages resonate with the black community, none of the problems will ever be solved because they have no impetus to want to solve them or listen to anyone telling them they need to get to work.

In a perfect world you're right...who and how things are said shouldn't matter at all. We don't live in a perfect world and people aren't perfect beings. People listening to a statement are going to make decisions, and people making statements may very well have ulterior motives.

That's just not an excuse. Of course it's not a perfect world and never will be, that doesn't make working to the closest approximation of a perfect world a bad goal to have. It's not that these people are going to make decisions, it's that so many of these people have been indoctrinated into a particular worldview and they have been treated like children by the Democrats for so many decades, giving them free stuff just for bothering to get out of bed in the morning, what impetus do they have to change? Why should they actually get up and work when they've been told they don't have to and get a government check once a month?

Absolutely disagree. The purpose of pointing out a problem isn't to make people feel good about it, but it's also not simply to be "Correct" about it. The only worthwhile reason to point out a problem is in an effort to legitimate try and get that problem fixed.

But you can't get it fixed unless the people involved are willing to help fix it. So far, people have talked about it endlessly, but very little beyond talk has occurred. The problem is, things ar enot getting better, statistically they continue to get worse with each passing generation. The time for talk is really gone, but what can you do when a large group of people don't want to listen to anyone explain how to fix the problems, they're too busy holding out their hand for a government check.

A white conservative, mimicing MLK's famous speech on it's anniversary, singularly focusing on blacks, while using language like "planation" and "enslave", who slowly deviates from statistical backed notions to opinion based politically motivated statements is not going to effectively convince, inspire, or enlighten any nominal amount of “correction” to occur with the problem.

The issue here is that only conservatives are going to tell them that they have problems. White conservatives, black conservatives, hispanic conservatives, it doesn't matter, they're not listening. Liberals are going to keep telling them that they deserve more free stuff from the government like they always have.

Well, I disagree we can only start in one place really in the grand scope of things…as well as my earlier point about the subjective nature of “biggest problem”….but that’s neither here nor there. My issue isn’t so much that he’s talking about blacks, but rather then entire context and method make me sincerely question the motivations and intent behind it as well as the effectiveness of it and thus its actual worth and value as a statement.

There's only so many resources we can call upon, we can't do everything at once and the reasons for the problems in various communities are different and call for different approaches. The reasons for high single-parent households in the black community are entirely different than in the white community. Whereas many problems in the white community (and I hate using all these "communities") have been reversed, in the black community they continue to get worse. Teen pregnancy has improved dramatically among white teens, but among black teens, it continues to increase. Black teens are 1.5x more likely, not only to have a teen pregnancy, but to have multiple pregnancies during the teen years. 25% of white sexually active teens use effective birth control, which is not enough by any means, but it's much better than the 14% of black teens that do. These are problems for everyone, but bigger problems in the black sub-culture and pointing out the facts is not racism, no matter how much the liberals seem to think otherwise.

Really? You missed the person who responded to your post suggesting that we should remove “Black” and apply it to every single American everywhere by stating that would ignore the “substantial problems that exist in inner city communities” which he’s since gone on to clearly show means to him “black people”.

No one’s bluntly stated it’s only a black issue…but someone DID absolutely respond to your post in disagreement with the notion that it would be better said as a dream for everyone, and not just for “blacks/inner city community dwellers”.

I don't think it would ignore "substantial problems" because I don't think those problems are significantly different than problems people have anywhere. Whether that person likes it or not, there are more than just black people living in the ghettos, but nobody is willing to address the question of why there are such a high percentage of black people living there. That's typically a question verbotten and immediately declared to be racist. I can only return to my original statement that we should only have one standard, a single expectation for all people regardless of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, etc. We all should have the same rights and we all should have the same responsibilities. Nobody should be handled with kid gloves and nobody should be able to scream "racism" or "sexism" or anything else when their issues are pointed out. If they don't like that, they should fix their issues.
 
Where the hell do you get the idea that we can't talk about any particular social ill unless we bring up every other conceivable social ill at the same time? That's like saying you can't bring up the issue of speeding in Spokane, Washington unless you also talk about speeding in every single other city on the planet at the same time. That's just downright stupid. No, those are not only problems in the black community, but the black community, at least on these specific issues, tends to have worse problems than everyone else. 78% of black households are single-parent households. No other racial group has anywhere near that kind of a problem. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. So why wouldn't we talk about the people with the biggest problems first and most and loudest? They need the most work!



Or you can just want to ignore clear and present problems because you're convinced that even acknowledging the scope of the issue constitutes racism. And that's absolutely idiotic.

LOL. I don't think it's racist to point out these facts. However, I am not sure what pointing these issues out and zeroing in on black Americans has to do with it. Our politicians should be tackling these issues for all people. Don't simply tell me to think of single parenting, poor school systems, gangs, violence, etc as black issues and then just drop the ball. Nobody is really promoting solutions, and that's why I have a real problem.

The point that I make; that all these issues are related to by all races, is a very valid point. My point is that resolving the issues is something we should all get behind. And in acknowledging the fact that these issues are common issues in black communities, then I also remind you of the fact that there are millions of other non black Americans who can relate to those black communities. Why turn it around then say, no, Shewolf, we have to recognize these things as predominately black issues? Why, so all the other races won't self identify with these particular problems and just associate it with black people?

I don't understand why I should think of such things are predominately black issues.
 
LOL. I don't think it's racist to point out these facts. However, I am not sure what pointing these issues out and zeroing in on black Americans has to do with it. Our politicians should be tackling these issues for all people. Don't simply tell me to think of single parenting, poor school systems, gangs, violence, etc as black issues and then just drop the ball. Nobody is really promoting solutions, and that's why I have a real problem.

The point that I make; that all these issues are related to by all races, is a very valid point. My point is that resolving the issues is something we should all get behind. And in acknowledging the fact that these issues are common issues in black communities, then I also remind you of the fact that there are millions of other non black Americans who can relate to those black communities. Why turn it around then say, no, Shewolf, we have to recognize these things as predominately black issues? Why, so all the other races won't self identify with these particular problems and just associate it with black people?

I don't understand why I should think of such things are predominately black issues.

Sure, and in general terms I agree that we ought to solve the problems for everyone, but you have to admit that there is only a limited amount of time, manpower and money to be spent at any given time on any particular problems. The problem happens to be much worse in the black community than in any other, therefore, isn't it more efficient to put out limited time and resources into attacking the demonstrably worst problems first?

It isn't a racist thing to point out the rational facts, no matter how it makes people feel.
 
I think it's funny how you always resort to saying... we're telling the truth. Nobody is calling you a liar. We are just discussing why many of you want the conversation to go back to being... well, actually this mostly applies to black issues.

It doesn't look like the political leaders and people like you want to talk about the issues. It kind of looks like you want to talk about black people, and then never actually resolve the issues or try to have a real conversation about solutions. The debate constantly goes back to... it applies mostly to black people, that's a fact.

We are just saying, look at all the facts.

How about you start that thread, and again, post per capita statistics that pertain to the OP.

IF you did you would be able to identify real issues that pertain to the OPs topic

And no one is trying to make blacks look bad. Telling the truth about problems that afflict certain people disproportionately is just trying to address an issue that has been long ignored.

Post the per-capita statistics and maybe you'll understand where I'm comming from.
 
Little steps doesn't necessarily mean seeing the issue according to racial groups.

If you want to start with resolving some of the issues, I agree, that it would probably be best to start in communities where the problems are moderate and put in place simple measures to see what works. Little steps, and then it will spread out. I wouldn't say that the approach would be to start with the most serve examples in society, especially if trying to tackle issues on violence. It could be dangerous. But the best places to start could be white, hispanic, asian, etc. communities. Who knows. Why look at it by racial lines?


Not that efforts aren't being made by people all through our society to deal with a lot of the issues noted in the OP, and not just in the black communities, but if people try to make the issues too big, too all incompassing, they become too hard or impossible to deal with. And by making them too big people just throw up their hands and say it can't be fixed.

I'll give you a simple example - here in Toronto, there's been a problem in social housing with gangs and drugs, etc., and normal low income and poor people who live in large social housing buildings are terrified and they don't feel safe in their homes. There are lots of such buildings and complexes. If you look at them all as one big problem the task of fixing it becomes virtually impossible. But a couple of months ago, over 1,000 police, paramedics, firemen, and others formed up and tackled one such building - they spent most of the night going through every apartment looking for drugs, guns, etc. - most of the residents cheered them on and let them in to search - where there was resistance, they broke the door down - the police rounded up dozens of gang members lots of guns, lots of drugs, hundreds of thousands if not millions in illegal cash profits from crime, packed it all up and cleared the building of scum - the residents were delighted and all the gang bangers and their enablers, you know the mommas who never saw their baby do nuthin wrong, were bitching and moaning, but the good people who matter got some justice and satisfaction.

Little steps, one at a time, can be built upon and lead to big accomplishments. That's the kind of dream I can believe in and I don't have to be any particular race to have it.
 
The purpose of pointing out a problem is not to make people feel good about it, it is to correct it. I don't care if it makes people happy. I care if it makes them sit up and take notice.

But I haven't seen anyone making that claim. Nobody has said that this is only a black issue. It's just that it's an issue that is most predominant among blacks. That's the reality, whether it makes people happy or not. If blacks don't like that, they can SOLVE THE PROBLEM! It isn't like they haven't had generations to do it, but it keeps getting worse and every time someone even points out that it is a problem, they scream racism.

That, in and of itself is another, perhaps even bigger problem!

So you want to point out to black people that they have these problems, sit up and take notice, and then fix the problems themselves?

Why not treat all races the same in this respect?
 
So you want to point out to black people that they have these problems, sit up and take notice, and then fix the problems themselves?

Why not treat all races the same in this respect?

If they had fixed the problems themselves, or even taken any kind of steps to diminish them, there wouldn't be an issue, would there? But they not only do not show any interest in fixing their problems, they don't want anyone else noticing that they even have problems to begin with. They just want free checks from the government because they've been deluded into thinking that the past somehow gives them unlimited and eternal access to government freebies.

It's not like these problems just popped up last week, they've been well known for decades and continually getting worse. They don't want to fix the problems on their own, eventually someone else has to step in and do it.
 
You sound like an opportunist. Yeah, there are limited amount of resources, but as other posters have pointed out, to make this a racial issue is entirely subjective. You're deliberately making it a racial issue.

Why not tackle the issues according to the practicality of resolving the issues in a given community, verses addressing race?

If you take one issue... schooling for example, it would seem easier on the surface to address poor schooling overall verses problem solving on the racial makeup of each school district.

You see what I mean, it looks like you want to make these issues it a racial issues. I don't think we should problem solve according to race.

Sure, and in general terms I agree that we ought to solve the problems for everyone, but you have to admit that there is only a limited amount of time, manpower and money to be spent at any given time on any particular problems. The problem happens to be much worse in the black community than in any other, therefore, isn't it more efficient to put out limited time and resources into attacking the demonstrably worst problems first?

It isn't a racist thing to point out the rational facts, no matter how it makes people feel.
 
You sound like an opportunist. Yeah, there are limited amount of resources, but as other posters have pointed out, to make this a racial issue is entirely subjective. You're deliberately making it a racial issue.

I'm not deliberately making it anything. I'm responding in relation to this thread and how it's laid out.

Why not tackle the issues according to the practicality of resolving the issues in a given community, verses addressing race?

Which is fine, we can address it in terms of poverty, but then again, which groups are over-represented in poverty neighborhoods and would just assume it was racial anyhow? The fact remains that no matter how you cut this up, certain groups have more problems with it than others. It's not because of their race, it's because of the common sub-culture that many people of that race embrace.

If you take one issue... schooling for example, it would seem easier on the surface to address poor schooling overall verses problem solving on the racial makeup of each school district.

Yet the poorest schools overall are in highly black neighborhoods, attended by majority black students. These are just the facts. You can try to cover the facts or avoid talking about the facts all you want, it doesn't change the facts.

You see what I mean, it looks like you want to make these issues it a racial issues. I don't think we should problem solve according to race.

It's not really a racial issue, it's a cultural issue, but it is a black culture that has the problems, there's only so many ways we can talk about them without coming back around to race. I don't think we should try to play "hide the reality" with anyone. It is what it is. The only real way for black kids to get ahead is to get out of the black culture. Let me know when you see a lot of them willing to do that.
 
I'm not deliberately making it anything. I'm responding in relation to this thread and how it's laid out.



Which is fine, we can address it in terms of poverty, but then again, which groups are over-represented in poverty neighborhoods and would just assume it was racial anyhow? The fact remains that no matter how you cut this up, certain groups have more problems with it than others. It's not because of their race, it's because of the common sub-culture that many people of that race embrace.

Certain groups do have more problems with poverty than others. You can stop throwing that around, because I am not in denial, and you keep talking to me as if you don't understand that.

Second of all, we don't know why certain groups have problems with poverty. To say it is a sub culture is as much as a guess as saying it's because political and social structure, American history, government dependence, poor schooling and education, etc.

There isn't a very in depth, honest research being cited anywhere, other than the statistics, so we don't know what the cause is or is not. It very well could be several problems. Maybe the subculture you're describing is just a reflection of a deeper, and more complex social problem you and I don't relate to.

The fact is, we can't help anybody unless we actually understand their needs, and right now, we have a bunch of politicians and pundits offering no solutions, just making these guesses about "black culture" while touting these statistics. I am not buying into it.

I am not denying the statistics or the social problems in black communities, but the entire attitude that those statistics are perpetuation and the guy's statement in the OP, I don't support it. I want real solutions, a real understanding of the communities and people the guy is taking issue with.

Yet the poorest schools overall are in highly black neighborhoods, attended by majority black students. These are just the facts. You can try to cover the facts or avoid talking about the facts all you want, it doesn't change the facts.



It's not really a racial issue, it's a cultural issue, but it is a black culture that has the problems, there's only so many ways we can talk about them without coming back around to race. I don't think we should try to play "hide the reality" with anyone. It is what it is. The only real way for black kids to get ahead is to get out of the black culture. Let me know when you see a lot of them willing to do that.

Where is the proof of what you're saying? And when you use the phrase "black culture" exactly what are you referring to? I am not asking to be a smart ass, I could guess what you mean, but I could be wrong. And I do know quiet a few successful black people, but I wouldn't say they have abandoned their race in the process.
 
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