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GE moving X-ray business to China

Dude, oil companies get like 8 billion a year in subsidies and tax cuts.

You know I've heard this over and over .. and I have yet to find anyone that can show any details saying we give oil companies 8 billion a year in subsidies and tax cuts that we don't give any other global business .. . Perhaps "you" have that link showing this .... . or perhaps you are just the like the others, and takes that talking point because it sounds good to you
 
Other countries, like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, are competing with China and doing just fine.

There have always been countries where the workers were paid less, yet America thrived. Today they are stuck.

And you think that's China's fault? Or a corporation's fault?

The fault is on the ideology of free trade and free traders, for believing this is going to end up making all of us better off in the long run.
 
Except Germany and Japan aren't shipping all their jobs to China

They're competing, and doing quite well in the process. They countries use quality too gain advantage, people are willing to pay for it, and they do very well as a result.


It really shouldn't be a mystery but now Americans, the last ones who should be doing this, are talking of protectionism, tariffs, and setting up walls. It's an amazing turnaround for this once so successful nation,
 
This story looks to me like much ado about nothing.

GE said it doesn't expect the move to result in any job losses in the U.S., where the unit has been based in Waukesha, Wisc. The Wisconsin X-ray division has 120 employees. The company also said it is too early to say how many employees it will hire for the unit's new Beijing headquarters.

WSJ UPDATE: GE Moving Top X-Ray Executives To China - FoxBusiness.com
 
Blame? Well, then you have to be willing to accept third world living standards here. You can't have a high standard of living and then say business is right to leave so they can get third worl labor for pennies. Like I said, it's a bit of a moral issue.

And yes, many were short sighted. Many pay for cheap prices but forget they are sliting their own throats. However, that doesn't change that both are still wrong. My friend may be correct in that we are mexicanizng the US, making the division greater between rich and poor and brining back low, low, low wages. But we can't blame anyone.

Free trade is supposed to level everybody out... workers will all be worth the same all around the world. In theory, companies will be more efficient , have bigger profits to reward workers with, and everybody in the world will benefit. The problem is, not everybody in the world nor all policy makers are "free traders." Some people and countries won't engage in it, or will try to protect their laborers with union rights. What will happen, is the countries that engage in free trade and compete with "slave wages" will just reduce themselves to a third world economy.

I think of free trade like I think of Marxist communism, in order for it to work, the entire world has to engage in the same policies and there can be no resistance... and that's never gonna happen
 
What you seem to be saying is that the Americans, with an unparalleled history of innovation and invention, cannot now compete in a changing world.

It seems your education system, as well as your leadership of course, really needs an overhaul.

This is all true. A lot of people here are ****ing stupid and not willing to invest money in innovation and infrastructure because investing = spending, and people are on an anti spending for anything and everything crusade.
 
Compete? If we were speaking of innovation and invention, I would agree with you that we can. But we're not. We're talking about salary for that. To compete in that arena, we must take less, less pay, less benefits, less good living. I'm asking if we really want to compete in that way?

Just curious, what is the choice if we don't decide to compete in that way? Do you think that jobs are going to just suddenly start appearing here in the USA with no changes? If not and those decent paying jobs keep moving overseas, which they will .. what are our options ??
 
The fault is on the ideology of free trade and free traders, for believing this is going to end up making all of us better off in the long run.

I would argue that the fault has less to do with free trade and more to do with national competitive advantages. For example, in 2010, the U.S. had a $273 billion trade deficit with China, with almost $4 in imports for every dollar in exports. Meanwhile, using a $1.40 Euro-Dollar exchange rate, Germany had a much more modest $32 billion trade deficit with China. In that case, Germany imported $1.43 for every dollar it exported.
 
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There are opportunities everywhere, now more than ever, and Americans used to be the best in finding them. Now they've become spoiled and expect everything to be handed to them, an idea that would once have been unthinkable to their independent nature

I hope they'll find the inspiration to rise above their malaise. They did once before but with each generation it seems to become more difficult.

Do you have specifics you would like to see?
 
The fault is on the ideology of free trade and free traders, for believing this is going to end up making all of us better off in the long run.

Where's the problem?

In fact it does work and history tells us so.
 
Canada has free trade with quite a few countries and is doing very well.

Negotiations and Agreements, by Category

Now exactly why is Canada doing well?

At least compared with the US

Our financial industry is more tightly regulated, our environmental laws are generally similar, personal income taxes are higher in Canada, our social spending on average is higher then that of the US. Our manufacturing industry is declining (it is moving to Asia, the US or Mexico.

Canada is doing well right now for three main reasons, our financial industry did not put out nearly as many bad loans as the US (tighter regulation) so even though we have had a similar increase in housing prices, we have not had the bust (as of yet). The second reason is commodity prices, oil, metals, agriculture all have had prices remain relatively high despite the slowdown in the US ( we can thank China and India for that primarily). Last but not least, the total US collapse that could have occurred, along with the total collapse in consumer spending in the US did not occur (government stimulus to the rescue)

Free trade is not the savings grace of Canadian jobs, the commodity sector is. Free trade has done little for Canada, and will do little for Canada in the future. Selling iron ore to India, does not require a free trade agreement, and with a free trade agreement we are not going to be selling rolled steel to India or South Korea ( Canadian mills can not compete with the cost of Indian mills, or the quality of South Korean ones )
 
Well you can triple the tariffs on a pair of shoes, for example. so that the consumer pays three times more for the product than they usually would. Somebody has to pay. Tariffs are usually just a form of protectionism (or a money grab) and works against the economy of those installing the tariffs. It might make us feel safer over the very short term but reality inevitably intrudes on these dreams.

We did fine before 1995 when the world trade origination was founded.

tradedeficit.jpg


Americans can compete with anyone, and have demonstrated that for decades. But they have to look at the policies and revisit the ideas that made them that way.

How do you compete against companies that pay their workers 2-4 dollars a day and do not have to abide by the same environmental and safety laws that we do? Do we make slavery in the US legal again? Do we toss out all our safety and environmental laws? Do we demand that the federal government gives us tax credits for buying American made goods? Do American companies cut so many corners that the goods they sell are pieces of junk?
 
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Do you have specifics you would like to see?

In what way?

The Americans need a dramatic boost to their spirit, that's certain, and they have to stop vilifying each other. There are many ways to start doing this but I'm not certain the will is there anymore

A new President certainly. There should be no class warfare or race baiting. That's no way too run a country, and everything flows from the top.

It's trickle down optimism that's needed, not what you have now.
 
We did fine before 1995 when the world trade origination was founded.

tradedeficit.jpg




How do you compete against companies that pay their workers 2-4 dollars a day and do not have to abide by the same environmental and safety laws that we do? Do we make slavery in the US legal again? Do we toss out all our safety and environmental laws? Do we demand that the federal government gives us tax credits for buying American made goods?

You'd be far more competitive if the country wasn't mired in foreign debt, and borrowing over $4 billion more every day to try to keep above water. yet anyone who says they should try to control spending is "right wing"". If this is the attitude of the general public then the United States will simply not recover. It's impossible..

Here's what happened in Canada. It could make for some interesting reading..

Canada then, America now
 
This is all true. A lot of people here are ****ing stupid and not willing to invest money in innovation and infrastructure because investing = spending, and people are on an anti spending for anything and everything crusade.

but is it any wonder? in 2010 our government collected nearly 2.4 trillion dollars .... and spend 1.4 trillion dollars more then it took in .. (the figures are nearly the same for 2011) yet in 1990 our governments income was just over a trillion dollars ... and we spend 221 billion more then we took in . .

So just do the math ... we've given the government over 1 trillion dollars more to spend since 1990, and what did they do ... they spend that trillion dollars .. plus another 1.5 trillion they didn't have. people are just fed up with the spending, they are fed up with Republicans and Democrats spending like a drunken sailor.

People from all walks of life, from both parties .. are are saying enough already. I'm one of them, that can certainly understand where they are coming from. In 21 years we've doubled the government revenue, and they have increased their deficit spending by nearly 8 fold . My attitude has always been, show me you can stop the spending spree, that you can rein it in. Once you show me you can control you habit that has been out of control for 20 years ...... then come back to ask us to help get us out of this mess with more in taxes. But if you think I am going to trust them to cut spending ... just because they "say" they are... aint gonna happen .. I've seen 30 years of uncontrolled spending, and heard this song and dance time and time again. This time they are going to have to show me.
 
They're competing, and doing quite well in the process. They countries use quality too gain advantage, people are willing to pay for it, and they do very well as a result.


It really shouldn't be a mystery but now Americans, the last ones who should be doing this, are talking of protectionism, tariffs, and setting up walls. It's an amazing turnaround for this once so successful nation,

A big difference between American and Japan and Germany is the American attitude towards economics. Americans focus on cost and think competition is all about cost, competing with China's cheap labor, busting unions, Wal mart, etc. anything that will drive down cost because in America, that's the only competitive strategy they know... supply side economics. Walmart is huge, and America is practically running up a trade deficit because of Wal mart and other similar engagements with China. We basically borrow money from China, so we can buy a bunch of cheap **** from China. All China has to do is keep investing in their country, innovation, infrastructure, then suddenly give the people more worker rights, and Americans will be ****ed and be at a huge disadvantage.

Japan and Germany value quality over mass producing ****ty quality goods and mass distributing them. Germany protested when Wal Mart tried to open shop in Germany. The German people have a different attitude than Americans, and Germany has never had the a problem with Chinese made toys containing toxins or date rape drugs either like America has. German and European made toys are more expensive than the ones you find in Wal mart, but that's their attitude. They can also afford to buy them, because they aren't shipping jobs out. They also have strong worker rights and unions, and Germany has decided to drive the world economy in terms of green innovation. It's risky, but they have the drive to try it and the desire to succeed. I think America had that innovation attitude 50 some years ago, where did it go?

In American business schools, we actually study a lot about the Japanese now. A lot of my classes were full of people from China studying in American business schools also. Both Germany and Japan have phrases that can't be translated into simple English that refer to manufacturing processes that add and create value. They are willing to pay more, because that's their attitude. Even homes are smaller, but they are more expensive. They don't view workers the same as American's do... Their attitudes are way different, and American's attitude is really hurting us, literally. The Chinese are giving us toxic goods, yet we haven't initiated any new policies or tried to fight the direction our economy is headed in. Doing so would just result in an outpouring from our political system, any policies or regulations on businesses to prevent such products will RAISE YOUR PRICES, and that's bad for you.
 
I would argue that the fault has less to do with free trade and more to do with national competitive advantages. For example, in 2010, the U.S. had a $273 billion trade deficit with China, with almost $4 in imports for every dollar in exports. Meanwhile, using a $1.40 Euro-Dollar exchange rate, Germany had a much more modest $32 billion trade deficit with China. In that case, Germany imported $1.43 for every dollar it exported.

The trade deficit is the result of us outsourcing manufacturing and jobs to China. In fact, I have seen many studies that say Wal Mart greatly contributes to our trade deficit because they import some many goods from China. Furthermore, outsourcing is a huge part of the free trade ideology.
 
You'd be far more competitive if the country wasn't mired in foreign debt, and borrowing over $4 billion more every day to try to keep above water. yet anyone who says they should try to control spending is "right wing"". If this is the attitude of the general public then the United States will simply not recover. It's impossible..

Here's what happened in Canada. It could make for some interesting reading..

Canada then, America now

I think that most Americans realize that spending needs to be cut, and revenue needs to be raised. But the devil is in the details, i.e., where it should be cut and how it should be raised.

As far as protectionism goes, the bottom line is that it doesn't work. Sure, you can slap tariffs on foreign products to make domestic products more competitive -- in this country. But that will only result in other countries slapping tariffs on American products. That's not such a great deal for American companies, given the fact that the fastest growing markets are all foreign markets. One of the few bright spots in the economy is manufacturing, but much of that strength is being driven by exports (see Caterpillar, for example). Of course protectionism is also incredibly inflationary.

Beyond that, offshoring of jobs isn't the main driver of unemployment. Automation is the main driver. If you have a Chinese company employing 1000 drones to assemble widgets, and you impose a tariff to move production here, an American company isn't going to pay 1000 people to make the same widgets. They may employ 50 to run the automated assembly line.
 
In what way?

The Americans need a dramatic boost to their spirit, that's certain, and they have to stop vilifying each other. There are many ways to start doing this but I'm not certain the will is there anymore

A new President certainly. There should be no class warfare or race baiting. That's no way too run a country, and everything flows from the top.

It's trickle down optimism that's needed, not what you have now.

A new president won't change it... The country is divided.
 
Now exactly why is Canada doing well?

At least compared with the US

Our financial industry is more tightly regulated, our environmental laws are generally similar, personal income taxes are higher in Canada, our social spending on average is higher then that of the US. Our manufacturing industry is declining (it is moving to Asia, the US or Mexico.

Canada is doing well right now for three main reasons, our financial industry did not put out nearly as many bad loans as the US (tighter regulation) so even though we have had a similar increase in housing prices, we have not had the bust (as of yet). The second reason is commodity prices, oil, metals, agriculture all have had prices remain relatively high despite the slowdown in the US ( we can thank China and India for that primarily). Last but not least, the total US collapse that could have occurred, along with the total collapse in consumer spending in the US did not occur (government stimulus to the rescue)

Free trade is not the savings grace of Canadian jobs, the commodity sector is. Free trade has done little for Canada, and will do little for Canada in the future. Selling iron ore to India, does not require a free trade agreement, and with a free trade agreement we are not going to be selling rolled steel to India or South Korea ( Canadian mills can not compete with the cost of Indian mills, or the quality of South Korean ones )

I don't discount the difference commodities have made and part of the Canadian boom has been the American reluctance to drill for oil, thereby making Canada their major supplier.

It's also wise you added (not yet) to the Canadian Real Estate market. It could be argued that American housing is closer to genuine market value than Canadian prices. The Canadian real estate market is unrealistically high only through government manipulation, not as a result of the actual marketplace.

Free trade is good for everyone, the manufacturer and the consumer. There is no long term successful alternative.
 
In what way?

The Americans need a dramatic boost to their spirit, that's certain, and they have to stop vilifying each other. There are many ways to start doing this but I'm not certain the will is there anymore

A new President certainly. There should be no class warfare or race baiting. That's no way too run a country, and everything flows from the top.

It's trickle down optimism that's needed, not what you have now.

Well, I do agree with that.
 
but is it any wonder? in 2010 our government collected nearly 2.4 trillion dollars .... and spend 1.4 trillion dollars more then it took in .. (the figures are nearly the same for 2011) yet in 1990 our governments income was just over a trillion dollars ... and we spend 221 billion more then we took in . .

So just do the math ... we've given the government over 1 trillion dollars more to spend since 1990, and what did they do ... they spend that trillion dollars .. plus another 1.5 trillion they didn't have. people are just fed up with the spending, they are fed up with Republicans and Democrats spending like a drunken sailor.

People from all walks of life, from both parties .. are are saying enough already. I'm one of them, that can certainly understand where they are coming from. In 21 years we've doubled the government revenue, and they have increased their deficit spending by nearly 8 fold . My attitude has always been, show me you can stop the spending spree, that you can rein it in. Once you show me you can control you habit that has been out of control for 20 years ...... then come back to ask us to help get us out of this mess with more in taxes. But if you think I am going to trust them to cut spending ... just because they "say" they are... aint gonna happen .. I've seen 30 years of uncontrolled spending, and heard this song and dance time and time again. This time they are going to have to show me.

We can't keep promising tax cuts either... eventually we are going to have to pay back what we have borrowed. Yes, people need to make sacrifices, but we shouldn't sacrifice innovation and investing in our own country. The parties are trying to wage one class against the other. The government is entirely dysfunction, and that's a major problem in and of itself. We need to have a grown up talk about spending cuts and investments. Simply attacking all spending is being blind, because that's is just leading to class warfare accusations from both sides.
 
I think that most Americans realize that spending needs to be cut, and revenue needs to be raised. But the devil is in the details, i.e., where it should be cut and how it should be raised.

As far as protectionism goes, the bottom line is that it doesn't work. Sure, you can slap tariffs on foreign products to make domestic products more competitive -- in this country. But that will only result in other countries slapping tariffs on American products. That's not such a great deal for American companies, given the fact that the fastest growing markets are all foreign markets. One of the few bright spots in the economy is manufacturing, but much of that strength is being driven by exports (see Caterpillar, for example). Of course protectionism is also incredibly inflationary.

Beyond that, offshoring of jobs isn't the main driver of unemployment. Automation is the main driver. If you have a Chinese company employing 1000 drones to assemble widgets, and you impose a tariff to move production here, an American company isn't going to pay 1000 people to make the same widgets. They may employ 50 to run the automated assembly line.

America was built up through tariffs on foreign goods

Trade: Chapter 20-3: US Tariff Policy: Historical Notes


20img5.gif


Except for a period of time in the 1920's and post WW2 tariffs in the US were a mainstay of federal government income, and helped ensure US domestic industries developed during the 1800
 
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