Gaza is an "Open Air Prison", Ghetto", "Refugee Camp"

[donsutherland1]

Glad to hear you have no problem with him calling Gaza a 'Prison Camp'.

I actually do on a personal basis, but that's beside the point. I understand how diplomacy works and recognize that the Prime Minister was trying to stake out a position that reinforces the peace process, while accommodating both Turkey's and Israel's needs. By addressing some of Turkey's views through rhetoric, but maintaining a steady policy of reaffirming the need for the bilateral peace process to yield the desired outcome he was able to do so.

If one can concede rhetoric without yielding on substance to strike a viable balance, as the Prime Minister tried to do, the approach isn't necessarily a bad one. Rhetoric is cheap. Policy substance is not. On policy substance, he again supported an Israeli inquiry into the incident and he emphasized direct bilateral talks as the mechanism for addressing issues such as the Gaza Strip's status. My guess is that Israel is not unhappy that British policy remained fundamentally unchanged on those two matters. At the same time, the Turkish government likely believes that the British Prime Minister understands Turkey's perspective.

 

[justabubba]

Many people, especially I'm sure our non-Israeli posters, imagine some REAL Refugee camp like those that exist in Sudan etc.
But most Palestinians "Refugeee Camps", are now Towns/cities.

A Quick bird's-eye view of Gaza City and some Unintentional News from AlArabiya TV. Jan 2009
46 seconds.
YouTube - Hamas fires from foreign Press building in Gaza January 2009 - Unintentional News from Alarabiya-TV
Is that Athens or Gaza?

and
4 minutes in December 2008 16 months ago:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4g1-HTJYEk"]YouTube- Daily life in Gaza[/ame]

does that Look like the "Warsaw Ghetto".. or Sudan? OR a Prison Camp with Starving people behind Barbed Wire?
Or does it look like alot of Middle Eastern Mediterranean locales?

And yes, I know SUBSEQUENTLY one can produce Bombed Building Pictures from the "Cast Lead"... but THIS is about the Daily Life most people are under the Misimpression about.
So Spare us.
This string is about this so-called "open Air Prison" that people Slander Israel with.
Or some Tent City some think is Gaza.
-

british PM agrees with your thread title but not your post:

Cameron calls Gaza 'prison camp'

Cameron calls Gaza 'prison camp' - CNN.com

"Let me also be clear that the situation in Gaza has to change. Humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp,"

 

[alexa]

I actually do on a personal basis,

Thanks. I did expect you too, and not just you.

but that's beside the point. I understand how diplomacy works and recognize that the Prime Minister was trying to stake out a position that reinforces the peace process, while accommodating both Turkey's and Israel's needs. By addressing some of Turkey's views through rhetoric, but maintaining a steady policy of reaffirming the need for the bilateral peace process to yield the desired outcome he was able to do so.

If one can concede rhetoric without yielding on substance to strike a viable balance, as the Prime Minister tried to do, the approach isn't necessarily a bad one. Rhetoric is cheap. Policy substance is not. On policy substance, he again supported an Israeli inquiry into the incident and he emphasized direct bilateral talks as the mechanism for addressing issues such as the Gaza Strip's status. My guess is that Israel is not unhappy that British policy remained fundamentally unchanged on those two matters. At the same time, the Turkish government likely believes that the British Prime Minister understands Turkey's perspective.

It is the strongest words I have heard any British MP say about Gaza for a very long time. I would hope, and to be honest as a British citizen, expect it not to be just words. I do know he recognises like most of us Israel's need for security, but from the outside this is unfortunately how it is seen. I am hoping we will see in addition to the extra things which are being allowed in, quantities which are needed for people to begin manufacturing so that Gaza can again begin to export and have some legal finances. I believe the sea port needs to be opened. All done with proper supervision. I am also hoping for changes so that people may move about more freely. I have to think he will also be making moves in those ways, supporting moves to create this.

I know from what I have written earlier that you know I think this is really necessary for eventual stability. I also believe where there is a will. A lot of the rest I do just see as rhetoric but I think he went a bit far, if it were only to be rhetoric on this part. If you say people are living in a prison camp and don't do what you can to change it, what does it say for you. It was reported at home as well.

 

[mbig]

Mr Cameron was going a bit overboard for his Turkish hosts it seems.
And him saying it doesn't refute Anything in this string.

A Worse Mistake in Cameron
A Worse Mistake in Cameron’s “Prison Camp” Speech
July 27th, 2010 DAVID FRUM

The slap at Israel was bad – the failure to condemn the Hamas government in Gaza even worse – but the real evil in Cameron’s speech in Ankara was the way in which it fed Prime Minister Erdogan’s delusions of grandeur.

* “Turkey is a great NATO ally and Turkey shares our determination to fight terrorism in all its forms, whether from al-Qaeda or from the PKK.”
* “Which European country could have the greatest possible chance of persuading Iran to change its course on nuclear policy? Tabii ki Türkiye.”
* “No other country has the same potential to build understanding between Israel and the Arab world.”
* “But as, hopefully, we move in the coming weeks to direct talks between Israel and the Palestinians so it’s Turkey that can make the case for peace and Turkey that can help to press the parties to come together, and point the way to a just and viable solution.”

None of these statements are true.

Turkey is not determined to fight terrorism in all its forms, not when it is sending flotillas to support Hamas [...]Egypt has much greater potential to build bridges with Israel than Turkey, a country still mistrusted by many in the Arab world it once ruled.
[....]
Diplomatic speeches are not delivered upon oath, and sometimes improved behavior can be elicited by flattering lies. In this case, though, flattering lies seem much more likely to create feelings of impunity – and invite yet more provocative behavior.

 

[ido_]

"Let me also be clear that the situation in Gaza has to change. Humanitarian goods and people must flow in both directions. Gaza cannot and must not be allowed to remain a prison camp,"

Letting goods enter Gaza is one thing, and Israel has interest to let the goods enter via its own border crossing with Gaza in order to check the cargo for smuggled weapons and such. But why on earth should Israel allow Gazans to enter Israel? Last time I checked we are in a state of war, the people of Gaza has nothing to look for in here.

 

[donsutherland1]

Letting goods enter Gaza is one thing, and Israel has interest to let the goods enter via its own border crossing with Gaza in order to check the cargo for smuggled weapons and such. But why on earth should Israel allow Gazans to enter Israel? Last time I checked we are in a state of war, the people of Gaza has nothing to look for in here.

Until there is both a signed peace agreement and on-the-ground secure environment, Israel cannot reasonably be expected to allow Gazans easy entry. I believe PM Cameron envisions such a situation, but only after peace has been achieved. I don't believe any credible political leader would expect such access prior to the establishment of an environment of peace and security.

 

[donsutherland1]

I would hope, and to be honest as a British citizen, expect it not to be just words.

I believe he is serious about wanting peace to be achieved. However, I also believe he understands that direct bilateral negotiations, which he hopes would begin soon, will be key to reaching such an agreement.

I am hoping we will see in addition to the extra things which are being allowed in, quantities which are needed for people to begin manufacturing so that Gaza can again begin to export and have some legal finances. I believe the sea port needs to be opened. All done with proper supervision.

The controls and supervision will be the difficult process. Past efforts by international monitors in Gaza and in Lebanon have proved to be utter failures. Unless far more robust mechanisms are developed, both in terms of preventing the smuggling of dual-use and/or weapons-related materials and creation/implementation of financial controls (to assure that Hamas doesn't gain possession of financial flows) such a more open approach won't be practical. It should be noted that Hamas has, in the past, rejected the possible presence of heavily armed international troops who would have the capacity to prevent Hamas from exploiting the benefits of greater commerce.

I am also hoping for changes so that people may move about more freely.

Greater freedom of movement in the Gaza Strip is probably feasible except in the buffer zones from which rockets have frequently been launched. Movement outside the Gaza Strip will need to be monitored very closely, as it is not in Israel's, Egypt's, or the West Bank's interests for Hamas to exploit such movement to use parts of Egypt to launch terrorist attack or develop a greater capacity in the West Bank.

If you say people are living in a prison camp and don't do what you can to change it, what does it say for you. It was reported at home as well.

Unless there is progress toward peace, there is very little that the UK can do. Therefore, it makes sense for the UK to play an active and constructive role in trying to facilitate such progress and I fully expect that the UK will do so.

 

[Hicup]

british PM agrees with your thread title but not your post:

Cameron calls Gaza 'prison camp' - CNN.com

Cameron, like every other politician that gets fed what to say, is an idiot! I'm sure you agree that some politicians really don't know what they're talking about, and couldn't confidently answer probing questions past; "what is your opnion on it Mr. Politician"? How about asking Cameron how he defines a "prison camp".. What does he mean with specificity? You'll get the deer in the headlights look. Not just from Cameron, but from almost all the politicians in the news. They're fed one liners, and maybe some brief back ground, after that, they're morons. Wish our MSM got back in the business of journalism, don't you? Exposing stupidity should be their priority!


Tim-

 

[alexa]

Until there is both a signed peace agreement and on-the-ground secure environment, Israel cannot reasonably be expected to allow Gazans easy entry. I believe PM Cameron envisions such a situation, but only after peace has been achieved. I don't believe any credible political leader would expect such access prior to the establishment of an environment of peace and security.

I have nothing against peace.

 

[alexa]

Cameron, like every other politician that gets fed what to say, is an idiot! I'm sure you agree that some politicians really don't know what they're talking about, and couldn't confidently answer probing questions past; "what is your opnion on it Mr. Politician"? How about asking Cameron how he defines a "prison camp".. What does he mean with specificity? You'll get the deer in the headlights look. Not just from Cameron, but from almost all the politicians in the news. They're fed one liners, and maybe some brief back ground, after that, they're morons. Wish our MSM got back in the business of journalism, don't you? Exposing stupidity should be their priority!


Tim-

Well that's a nice patronising little try at a put down of the British PM but not accurate. The news yesterday said that it was known this was his view but he had never spoken it so publicly before.

 

[justabubba]

Cameron, like every other politician that gets fed what to say, is an idiot!

ok, show me some evidence which demonstrates cameron is speaking what has been spoon fed to him. otherwise, you have offered nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion

I'm sure you agree that some politicians really don't know what they're talking about, and couldn't confidently answer probing questions past; "what is your opnion on it Mr. Politician"?

while i do agree some politicians are ignorant, what causes you to conclude cameron is one of them?

How about asking Cameron how he defines a "prison camp"..

why not look for ourselves. this appears to be an enclave which is without the ability to do things free people do. to me, that sounds like a prison. thus, i must conclude that cameron has a better feel for the situation than you

What does he mean with specificity? You'll get the deer in the headlights look. Not just from Cameron, but from almost all the politicians in the news. They're fed one liners, and maybe some brief back ground, after that, they're morons.

you call names but you offer no factual basis to justify your portrayal. your credibility suffers as a result

Wish our MSM got back in the business of journalism, don't you?

it would seem that the MSM's exposure of cameron's observations is what has got your panties in wad. the MSM cannot be held responsible for how some of its readers react to the information they are providing

Exposing stupidity should be their priority!

stupidity is infinite. i would rather they spend their time sharing that which is newsworthy. such as subject article ... the one you strongly object to without offering any factual basis of opposition


Tim-[/QUOTE]

 

[Gardener]

why not look for ourselves. this appears to be an enclave which is without the ability to do things free people do. to me, that sounds like a prison.

That's odd. You have touted Hamas as their freely elected leadership time after time after time after time.

I suppose when you want to support Hamas as their legitimate leaders, they are free. When you want to demonise Israel, they aren't. Funny, how freedom is so situational and depends so much upon the dictates of the specific agenda involved.

 

[donsutherland1]

I have nothing against peace.

I know that you support peace, so there was no doubt in my mind about your position on that issue.

 

[justabubba]

That's odd. You have touted Hamas as their freely elected leadership time after time after time after time.

I suppose when you want to support Hamas as their legitimate leaders, they are free. When you want to demonise Israel, they aren't. Funny, how freedom is so situational and depends so much upon the dictates of the specific agenda involved.

you post that as if people occupying a prison are unable to elect individuals to represent their interests

 

[Gardener]

you post that as if people occupying a prison are unable to elect individuals to represent their interests

and you post that as if the actual goal here was complete sophistry.

 

[Tashah]

you post that as if people occupying a prison are unable to elect individuals to represent their interests

They are. Hamas has said nyet to any new elections. In a Palestinian poll conducted in June, Hamas finished dead last in both credibility and elect-ability, and first in the category of inciting violence. No wonder they refuse new elections. Hamas also ruthlessly crushes any public dissent about... Hamas. For all practical purposes, it's now a dictatorship.

 

[justabubba]

They are. Hamas has said nyet to any new elections. In a Palestinian poll conducted in June, Hamas finished dead last in both credibility and elect-ability, and first in the category of inciting violence. No wonder they refuse new elections. Hamas also ruthlessly crushes any public dissent about... Hamas. For all practical purposes, it's now a dictatorship.

but let's look at the election of this abbas fellow your side WANTS to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian peoples' interests
and compare his election to that of hamas
and you will find that abbas continues to extend his term in office by fiat instead of conducting an election - one he knows he would lose
and the election which would put abbas out of office has been put off for far longer than the one due in gaza

 

[Tashah]

but let's look at the election of this abbas fellow your side WANTS to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian peoples' interests
and compare his election to that of hamas
and you will find that abbas continues to extend his term in office by fiat instead of conducting an election - one he knows he would lose
and the election which would put abbas out of office has been put off for far longer than the one due in gaza

funny. thats not what the palestinian poll said about
either abbas or elections
they clearly understand who is holding up
elections and why
- even "unknown candidates" score higher than hamas

 

[justabubba]

funny. thats not what the palestinian poll said about
either abbas or elections
they clearly understand who is holding up
elections and why
- even "unknown candidates" score higher than hamas

are you trying to tell us that abbas' need to stand for re-election did not occur previous to the time hamas needed to hold re-elections in gaza
rhetorical question - since you dodged it and instead answered an unasked question by insisting the poll data says something it clearly does not
simply more spin from the israeli propaganda machine

 

[donsutherland1]

They are. Hamas has said nyet to any new elections. In a Palestinian poll conducted in June, Hamas finished dead last in both credibility and elect-ability, and first in the category of inciting violence. No wonder they refuse new elections. Hamas also ruthlessly crushes any public dissent about... Hamas. For all practical purposes, it's now a dictatorship.

That Hamas is acting as a dictatorship is not very surprising considering that it seized control of the Gaza Strip via force of arms rather than by rule of law. Gaining a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature and acting within the constraints of Palestinian Basic Law is one thing. Exerting unilateral control over the Gaza Strip is entirely another. Hamas resorted to force to exert total control over the Gaza Strip.

 

[Tashah]

thats right don
but ignore hamas
pointing out their short-
comings upsets some
folks
jeesh how can anyone post
like this
talk about the zenith of
lazy

 

[justabubba]

That Hamas is acting as a dictatorship is not very surprising considering that it seized control of the Gaza Strip via force of arms rather than by rule of law. Gaining a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature and acting within the constraints of Palestinian Basic Law is one thing. Exerting unilateral control over the Gaza Strip is entirely another. Hamas resorted to force to exert total control over the Gaza Strip.

once hamas was elected, explain why they should have then allowed the corrupt fatah organization to continue to rule

 

[Tashah]

once hamas was elected, explain why they should have then allowed the corrupt fatah organization to continue to rule

because of the saudi brokered power sharing unity agreement that both hamas
and fatah signed off on
i know its an inconvenience to your position
but hamas did agree to honor this and signed
the document
they honored it for not even a week before taking exclusive
control of gaza by force

 

[justabubba]

because of the saudi brokered power sharing unity agreement that both hamas
and fatah signed off on
i know its an inconvenience to your position
but hamas did agree to honor this and signed
the document
they honored it for not even a week before taking exclusive
control of gaza by force

so, despite having won the election, your position is the corrupt fatah regime was entitled to continue to control the gazan government because of saudi interests



and allow us to note that this is the same saudi government which has winked and nodded at israel's request to fly over its air space to bomb iran's nuclear development infrastructure
the reality is that the saudi government is as corrupt as the exiled fatah government. as currupt as the present israeli government. birds of a feather. we can only hope that the house of saud will also soon meet its fate

 

[Tashah]

so, despite having won the election, your position is the corrupt fatah regime was entitled to continue to control the gazan government because of saudi interests
and allow us to note that this is the same saudi government which has winked and nodded at israel's request to fly over its air space to bomb iran's nuclear development infrastructure
the reality is that the saudi government is as corrupt as the exiled fatah government. as currupt as the present israeli government. birds of a feather. we can only hope that the house of saud will also soon meet its fate

far as i can determine no hamas bigwig complained that the saudis threatened
to flog or stone them if they didnt sign
they signed on the dotted line and then reniged
not really surprising or totally unexpected either