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Gaza is an "Open Air Prison", Ghetto", "Refugee Camp"

justabubba

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far as i can determine no hamas bigwig complained that the saudis threatened
to flog or stone them if they didnt sign
they signed on the dotted line and then reniged
not really surprising or totally unexpected either

could you please explain why hamas owes any allegiance to the house of saud, which allegiance would cause hamas to refuse to govern after being elected
 

Tashah

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could you please explain why hamas owes any allegiance to the house of saud, which allegiance would cause hamas to refuse to govern after being elected
im defending neither hamas nor the saudis
you asked a q and i answered it
i cant help it if you dont like what went down
its an arab thing
 

donsutherland1

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once hamas was elected, explain why they should have then allowed the corrupt fatah organization to continue to rule

For two reasons:

1. Hamas lacked the authority under Palestinian Basic Law to deprive the opposition from participating in governance.
2. Under a separate power-sharing agreement, Hamas committed itself to share power.

The former situation is a matter of Palestinian law. The latter is relevant to diplomacy. Indeed, one of the points raised by the Madrid Quartet is that if Hamas wishes to participate in the peace process, it must agree to respect existing diplomatic agreements. Parties are not free to discard agreements to suit their tastes or convenience. Otherwise, such agreements cannot provide a reliable framework in which the parties frame their relationships.
 

justabubba

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im defending neither hamas nor the saudis
you asked a q and i answered it
i cant help it if you dont like what went down
its an arab thing

but you are insisting that hamas, as the elected representative government of gaza should have allowed fatah's continued role in government only because the saudi's solicited that cooperation

you would seek to deprive the gazan Palestinians of the representative government they have elected
 

justabubba

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For two reasons:

1. Hamas lacked the authority under Palestinian Basic Law to deprive the opposition from participating in governance.
2. Under a separate power-sharing agreement, Hamas committed itself to share power.

The former situation is a matter of Palestinian law. The latter is relevant to diplomacy. Indeed, one of the points raised by the Madrid Quartet is that if Hamas wishes to participate in the peace process, it must agree to respect existing diplomatic agreements.
Parties are not free to discard agreements to suit their tastes or convenience. Otherwise, such agreements cannot provide a reliable framework in which the parties frame their relationships.

if only you could convince the current israeli government of this principled expectation
 

mbig

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Those who have visited Gaza know it is far from a prison
Stephanie Gutmann | 7/28/10 | Telegrah.co.uk
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/s...ve-visited-gaza-know-it-is-far-from-a-prison/

Sure, I wouldn’t want to live in the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, I wouldn’t like to have thuggish guys in chequered burnooses telling me what parts of my body I can display, when I can laugh, and whether I can leave home with a man who’s not my husband. But using the term “prison camp” while in the presence of the Turkish leader Tayyip Erodogan (who many consider an Islamist) was craven sucking up on the part of David Cameron yesterday. And after his relatively ballsy press conference last week with President Obama I’m disappointed in him.

How many prison camps have swanky restaurants? (Check out the website for The Roots) How many have malls offering brands like Lacoste and Adidas? How many are filled with outdoor cafes? True, women are no longer allowed to enjoy water pipes in those cafes along with the men, as part of Hamas’s ongoing clampdown on women, but still.

In the last couple of months, after the Mavi Marmara crisis brought the area back into the news, a whole slew of major newspapers sent reporters down to the Strip to investigate claims that there is a humanitarian crisis. The Washington Post reporter’s conclusion was that life is “dysfunctional” and sad for a number of reasons – but that “grocery stores are stocked wall-to-wall” and “pharmacies look as well-supplied as a typical Rite Aid in the United States”.

Politicians really have got to find a new way to talk about the very real problems in the Gaza Strip, one that is accurate and nuanced.
 
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digsbe

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Gaza is only a prisoner of the anti-semitic Islamists ideology. When people call it a death camp, open air prison, and all the other lies they simply try to appeal to the emotions of the weak. They dishonestly play on emotion to shape another's opinion that Israel is some wretched Nazi regime that wants to collectively punish and kill the Arabs in the Gaza Strip.
 

justabubba

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Gaza is only a prisoner of the anti-semitic Islamists ideology. When people call it a death camp, open air prison, and all the other lies they simply try to appeal to the emotions of the weak. They dishonestly play on emotion to shape another's opinion that Israel is some wretched Nazi regime that wants to collectively punish and kill the Arabs in the Gaza Strip.

is that so
it is the islamic ideology that keeps them penned into the gazan enclave
it's the islamic ideology that causes them to be denied goods due to the israeli imposed blockade
it is islamic ideology which causes them to be continually oppressed at the hands of the current israeli regime

what a profound reach your vision of islamic ideology possesses, while you allow yourself to remain blind to the actual oppression that the israeli government imposes on these Palestinian people

but to your credit, at least your post documents your recognition that gaza is a prison
 

digsbe

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is that so
it is the islamic ideology that keeps them penned into the gazan enclave
it's the islamic ideology that causes them to be denied goods due to the israeli imposed blockade
it is islamic ideology which causes them to be continually oppressed at the hands of the current israeli regime

what a profound reach your vision of islamic ideology possesses, while you allow yourself to remain blind to the actual oppression that the israeli government imposes on these Palestinian people

but to your credit, at least your post documents your recognition that gaza is a prison

Yes, it is the islamists ideology that keeps them penned into the Gazan enclave. Hamas barred people from going to Israel for medical treatment during the Israeli defensive military operation. They keep them penned in.

Yes, it is the islamists ideology that requires blockades and border checkpoints. They smuggle in weapons and utilities for war and genocide. It would be utter insanity for Israel to not have a blockade or border checks.

Yes, it is the islamists ideology which causes them to be continually oppressed... But not by israel. They are oppressed by Hamas. They kill those who disagree, they kill those who leave the ideology, they restrict women's rights, and the indoctrinate children into a crazy racist ideology.

Note I say islamists, not Islamic. islamists are commonly regarded to be extremists within the religion. I am not blind to something that does not exist. There is no Israeli oppression of the Gazans, there is only Israel acting in a sane manner to protect their citizens from a monster inside Gaza that vows and threatens to kill Israelis. Do they require many buildings to have bomb shelters near the Gaza border because they want to be oppressive?

Gaza is a prison, but they are shackled to Hamas and their ilk.
 

24107

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I'm a bit confused. Certainly this sort of mall opening, combined with the pictures of fully stocked markets and shops, indicates that the statements regarding the lack of supplies in gaza is over-blown and over-hyped.

Certainly employment sucks, security sucks, and so on, but the place is run by a terrorist organization, and one of the countries keeping gaza bottled up (Israel) is the primary target of the terrorist organization's existence.

So to the extent the people are in a bad spot, I would respectfully suggest that this was a direct result of electing a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of a neighbouring country, and the continued efforts of said terrorist organization to murder civilians across the border.

And, as others have rightly pointed out, the bad situation in Gaza is not nearly as bad as in a large number of other places where no one seems to give a rat's ***.

Some would consider Israel a terrorrist apartheid state, that usurped Palestinian's from their homes and territory, it's all a matter of which side of the fence your peering from.
 

CJ 2.0

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Some would consider Israel a terrorrist apartheid state, that usurped Palestinian's from their homes and territory, it's all a matter of which side of the fence your peering from.

well, aside from the fact that people who think that way don't really know what they are talking about, ;), it is also utterly irrelevant to my point. Regardless of what Israel is, The Palestinians would have had an independent state a long time ago if they abandoned terrorism and agreed to one of the many offers presented to them.
 

donsutherland1

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The Palestinians would have had an independent state a long time ago if they abandoned terrorism and agreed to one of the many offers presented to them.

Absolutely. They had the chance in late 2000 under President Clinton's bridging proposal. They had another chance in late 2008 with Prime Minister Olmert's proposal. They passed up both historic opportunities.
 

Gardener

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but you are insisting that hamas, as the elected representative government of gaza should have allowed fatah's continued role in government only because the saudi's solicited that cooperation

you would seek to deprive the gazan Palestinians of the representative government they have elected

Thanks for making me look like such a prophet there in post 212.
 
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