Gay Rights?

[Bluefire]

NO, Just because were suppose to "love" doesnt mean we cant like stuff and or give gays rights. SO what Jesus did not say Okay Love everyone and give them the rights or whatever they want. No were suppose to love, that doesnt mean agree in what we dont believe. So dont try to put context in the bible that is not there.

How, exactly, is giving someone rights agreeing with something you don't believe in?

 

[Courtneyx3]

How, exactly, is giving someone rights agreeing with something you don't believe in?

Because your letting what you dont want and whats not natural or what God intended to happen, happen.

 

[Courtneyx3]

But I have a question off topic for a min. do you go to UT?

 

[Bluefire]

Because your letting what you dont want and whats not natural or what God intended to happen, happen.

Last time I checked we let a marriage of one believer and one nonbeliver get the same rights as two believers. Yet God doesn't want a nonbeliever to get married with a believer. Why don't we see Christians calling for the rights to be revoked then? Why don't we see Christians all up in arms about letting it happen? According to you, if we allow it, that means we agree with it.

Why does this change when one person's sex changes?

 

[Bluefire]

But I have a question off topic for a min. do you go to UT?

Yep, work and school here.

 

[Courtneyx3]

Last time I checked we let a marriage of one believer and one nonbeliver get the same rights as two believers.

HUH? LOL i dont think so.. how do they have rights?


Yet God doesn't want a nonbeliever to get married with a believer. Not true


Why don't we see Christians calling for the rights to be revoked then? Why don't we see Christians all up in arms about letting it happen? According to you, if we allow it, that means we agree with it.

They do..

Why does this change when one person's sex changes?

Sorry your post confuses me.

 

[JustineCredible]

Yes I know that, the first part of what I said was in jest.

My point was that its pretty hypocritical to say you love them and then not give people the same rights as you. There are 1,049 federal rights, benefits and privileges, and just because they love a person of the same sex as them, you want to deny them those rights?

Stuff such as:

joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
bullet joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
domestic violence protection orders;

etc.

I understand that you feel that marriage is set out in the bible as being specifically a man and a woman, and that it is holy. So why in the world should we not allow civil unions, something that isn't exactly marriage, but gives them all the rights?

In other words, how can Christian's justify not giving these people rights (aka oppressing them) when they are supposed to "love" thy neighbor?

Bluefire, you were on the right track there, right up until you said:
"civil unions, something that isn't exactly marriage"

Has history taught you absolutely nothing?

"Seperate but equal, is NOT equal." (Chief Justice Warren regarding "Loving vs. Virginia")

 

[Courtneyx3]

Yep, work and school here.

You work @ UT?


BTW I was asking because, that is were I am going to go/ want to go.. LOL.

 

[JustineCredible]

Sorry your post confuses me.

Are we suprised? I know I'm not... :2funny:

I'm quite sure the concept of compassion as well as "Seperation of Church and State" both confuse you to no end.

 

[Bluefire]

You work @ UT?


BTW I was asking because, that is were I am going to go/ want to go.. LOL.

Yeah, I work at the ITS Helpdesk doing computer support for the University. I also am a junior here, political science major.

If you have any questions about it feel free to send me a PM. I need to go do some reading though, got a bunch to read and a test tomorrow (Ugh, summer classes move really fast! :lol: )

I'll prolly be back later to continue this discussion when I need a break, hehe.

 

[Bluefire]

Bluefire, you were on the right track there, right up until you said:
"civil unions, something that isn't exactly marriage"

Has history taught you absolutely nothing?

"Seperate but equal, is NOT equal." (Chief Justice Warren regarding "Loving vs. Virginia")

Throughout most of history to get something changed, it usually goes through a process of going from no rights, to seperate but equal, to finally being equal.

I understand that Christians believe that marriage is a holy union before God's eyes, and his law forbids homosexual marriage. What I don't understand, however, is why they are so against even an institution of civil unions.

Anyway, I really DO have to go do some reading. Its a graduate text so it takes forever. I'll be back lata!

 

[JustineCredible]

Throughout most of history to get something changed, it usually goes through a process of going from no rights, to seperate but equal, to finally being equal.

I understand that Christians believe that marriage is a holy union before God's eyes, and his law forbids homosexual marriage. What I don't understand, however, is why they are so against even an institution of civil unions.

Anyway, I really DO have to go do some reading. Its a graduate text so it takes forever. I'll be back lata!

What you, along with the 'Christians' seem to not be able to do is to seperate religious "marriage" from the contractual institution of "marriage."
One has little to do with the other, only in name. Atheists are not banned from entering into the legal contract we know as 'marriage.' Criminals are not barred from access to it either.
So, to simply ban gays from it's access is quite obviously based only in prejudice and hatred.

 

[Soviet_Guy]

You know, if you like it in Russia so much, I suggest you go there.
But...
If you insist upon staying here there are a few things you need to know.

Dude, first off, I plan to move to Austria when I'm around 24, second, I live in Canada, not the hell hole that is America.

 

[Bluefire]

What you, along with the 'Christians' seem to not be able to do is to seperate religious "marriage" from the contractual institution of "marriage."
One has little to do with the other, only in name. Atheists are not banned from entering into the legal contract we know as 'marriage.' Criminals are not barred from access to it either.
So, to simply ban gays from it's access is quite obviously based only in prejudice and hatred.

No, I do understand this, and I actually agree with you.

This was one of the points I was attempting to explore with Courtney in my posts. (Civil unions which are viewed as more of a legal contract by Christians, much in the same way non-Christians view non-religious marriage).

 

[Bluefire]

Sorry your post confuses me.

Let me address some of the things that you wrote in my post.

I said:

Last time I checked we let a marriage of one believer and one nonbeliver get the same rights as two believers.

You replied with:

HUH? LOL i dont think so.. how do they have rights?

The United States of America gives lots of rights, both federally and state level rights, to couples who are married. I'll list some more below here, but for more information see:

http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-benefits-of-marriage-in-the-united-states
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...+United+States&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc02b

Just a couple of the 1,093 privledges given to married couples:
- Visitation privileges to spouse in hospital. Currently Gays can be rejected from visitng their partners in the hospital if the hospital does so choose. There have been lots of reported incidents of this happening.

- Income tax deductions, credits, rates exemption, and estimates. Currently Gays pay higher taxes in a lot of places because they cannot marry.

- Permission to make arrangements for burial or cremation. Gay's do not currently have the power to make arrangements to bury their partner.

- Funeral and bereavement leave. Currently Gays are not guaranteed bereavement leave to attend the funeral of their partner.

And the list goes on and on. Stuff that people would consider normal in today's society isn't extended to them because of one area of the body: sexual organs.

====================

Moving on to the next thing. I said:

Yet God doesn't want a nonbeliever to get married with a believer.

You said:

Not true

Actually, this is true. It was something that was touched on quite often when I spent years in the church and a Christian.

2 Corinthians 6:14:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

During a quick google search for some commentary on this verse, I found some links which explain this, and talk about how marriage between a believer and a nonbeliever is a sin:

http://net-burst.net/ruth/mismatched.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/date-marry-unbeliever.html
http://www.visi.com/~nathan/xtian/unequalyoke.html
http://www.childoflight.org/yoked.html

and so on. There are plenty more by doing a quick google search for them.

======================

My point was that if gay marriage is so wrong that we should deny them the ability to get married and deny them the rights that our government places out for a union between two people, and its purely a spiritual reasoning behind it, why are the Christians perfectly okay with giving these same rights too someone who chooses to marry a believer and a nonbeliever?

Both of these are sins in the eyes of God. God has commanded men in the Bible against both homosexuality and marriage between a believer and a non-believer. Yet, Christians aren't protesting against rights for believers and nonbelievers, just against rights for homosexuals who marry.

 

[Courtneyx3]

****What I meant was there are not specific rights to nonbelievers and believers getting married- its to any man and wife that are married. LOL THats what I meant..

====================

Moving on to the next thing. I said:

You said:

Actually, this is true. It was something that was touched on quite often when I spent years in the church and a Christian.

2 Corinthians 6:14:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

*****Yes, but that doesnt mean you cant be friends/ date them, or even change them. You are suppose to invite them to church. That verse means dont do their ways. You can marry a nonbeliever- its not a rule that you can't, you can change that person.


My point was that if gay marriage is so wrong that we should deny them the ability to get married and deny them the rights that our government places out for a union between two people, and its purely a spiritual reasoning behind it, why are the Christians perfectly okay with giving these same rights too someone who chooses to marry a believer and a nonbeliever?

**Because they can change. I dont think it is a sin but you know. America is not based on Chrisitainity, so why would they denie a believer and nonbeliever to marry? Its not like they can look at them and tell if they believe in Christ or not.*



Both of these are sins in the eyes of God. God has commanded men in the Bible against both homosexuality and marriage between a believer and a non-believer. Yet, Christians aren't protesting against rights for believers and nonbelievers, just against rights for homosexuals who marry.[/QUOTE]

*Good point, but its not just Christians that protest against gays, its the world and the people in it. And Christians that marry nonbelievers usually bring that other person to Christ. Marring a nonchristian is natural though.*


*I like talking to you, you bring out interesting points. LOL And your not pushing it on, you just ask and tell things. Sorry if I come off rude, when I "debate" points, i tend to get a little mad. haha

 

[Courtneyx3]

What you, along with the 'Christians' seem to not be able to do is to seperate religious "marriage" from the contractual institution of "marriage."
One has little to do with the other, only in name. Atheists are not banned from entering into the legal contract we know as 'marriage.' Criminals are not barred from access to it either.
So, to simply ban gays from it's access is quite obviously based only in prejudice and hatred.

No matter if marriage is being religious or not, marriage is meant for a man and wife.

 

[JustineCredible]

No matter if marriage is being religious or not, marriage is meant for a man and wife.

Only since 1996 with the signing of DOMA. Before that there was NO federal regulation on the specific genders of those to be married. So, it's actually a VERY new concept, legally speaking.

I noticed you avoided my assertations about other citizen who are "sinner" who are still allowed to enter into the LEGAL contract of marriage. Did you avoid that on purpose?

 

[Bluefire]

What I meant was there are not specific rights to nonbelievers and believers getting married- its to any man and wife that are married. LOL THats what I meant..

Well, there aren't any specific rights to homosexuals that are married either (course they can't even get married ). All that they ask for is equality, no more, no less.

Yes, but that doesnt mean you cant be friends/ date them, or even change them. You are suppose to invite them to church. That verse means dont do their ways. You can marry a nonbeliever- its not a rule that you can't, you can change that person.

You seem to have a different belief then what I was taught and what those links that I gave you were advocating. I was taught that it was a sin to marry a nonbeliever OR be in a homosexual relationship.

Because they can change. I dont think it is a sin but you know. America is not based on Chrisitainity, so why would they denie a believer and nonbeliever to marry? Its not like they can look at them and tell if they believe in Christ or not.

And likewise, why would they deny two homosexuals marriage if its not a religious reasoning? I don't understand the logic behind that. One of the points that people bring up is saying that its not natural, which I don't agree with.

Homosexual behavior is actually something that is quite common in nature. There have been lots of studies done and observations of it. Birds, Penguins, Monkeys, Beetles, Sheep, Fruit Bats, Dolphins, and Orangutans. All of these, and many, many more, show homosexual behavior in the wild, and/or captivity.

Theres been studies done in which theres a large number of the species put into the same place, homosexual behavior increases. It was thought of as a natural reaction to a species becomming overpopulated, and as a defense mechanism of a species to be able to stay alive and have a substancial food source for all of the species. There are also conflicting studies done that even when small numbers of a species are placed together, homosexual behavior still emerges.

I know that when I'm sexually attracted to a girl, I don't have to think about it. Its just a natural reaction for me. I don't have to look at her and go, "hmm, she looks pretty, I think I would be interested in her". Its just a natural reaction. Its the same for homosexuals - its a natural reaction for them. It has a lot to do with the way one's brain is wired, just like personality.

I find it amazing for a society that claims to preach individuality to elementary schoolers that we can be so conformist.

Good point, but its not just Christians that protest against gays, its the world and the people in it. And Christians that marry nonbelievers usually bring that other person to Christ. Marring a nonchristian is natural though.

From my understanding of that mindset, people who don't protest homosexuality from a religious standpoint do it from the standpoint that they aren't one of them. Humans (and most species) have a tendency to need to fit in, and form groups.

A good example is of a duck that I heard the other day. If a duckling
sees a human leg after its born, and brushes up to it only to be rejected, its behavior will be changed for the rest of its life.

Likewise, people also tend to form groups, and don't like when these groups are threatened. Tolerance is in my mind a learned behavior. I had an Asian friend recently go to La Grange, Texas. She entered a bar with some friends which was an all-white bar. You could literally hear a pindrop at first, but later on they got used to her being there.

Its a natural reaction for us to not want people who aren't like us to be in our community. Look at the civil rights movement, why were people so opposed to African American's being in the US? I think its because people felt threatened by them. It wasn't "normal" to them, just like homosexuality isn't "normal" to us.

*edited to add this point:

I wish it were true that people who marry nonbelievers usually change them. It would make my parents marriage, and many others that I know about a helluva lot better.

I like talking to you, you bring out interesting points. LOL And your not pushing it on, you just ask and tell things. Sorry if I come off rude, when I "debate" points, i tend to get a little mad. haha

Thanks. :3oops: :lol:

It just shows you have passion for what you believe in, which is a good thing!

 

[Courtneyx3]

Only since 1996 with the signing of DOMA. Before that there was NO federal regulation on the specific genders of those to be married. So, it's actually a VERY new concept, legally speaking.

Okay well then now that what the Nation thinks should happen.

I noticed you avoided my assertations about other citizen who are "sinner" who are still allowed to enter into the LEGAL contract of marriage. Did you avoid that on purpose?

No, sorry I guess I skipped that. Will you post that again or do you want me to go back and look at it? LOL

 

[Courtneyx3]

Well, there aren't any specific rights to homosexuals that are married either (course they can't even get married ). All that they ask for is equality, no more, no less.

Equality, yes, but I just don't think i'd be natural or right.

You seem to have a different belief then what I was taught and what those links that I gave you were advocating. I was taught that it was a sin to marry a nonbeliever OR be in a homosexual relationship.

Well aren't you Jewish? I do think we believe a little different. But then again I have only been taught its a sin to be homosexual.

And likewise, why would they deny two homosexuals marriage if its not a religious reasoning? I don't understand the logic behind that. One of the points that people bring up is saying that its not natural, which I don't agree with.

I believe its not natural because God meant for us to find that certain someone, which that for me is because of religious reasons. But others just think its gross. I do too, i think its wierd. LOL

Homosexual behavior is actually something that is quite common in nature. There have been lots of studies done and observations of it. Birds, Penguins, Monkeys, Beetles, Sheep, Fruit Bats, Dolphins, and Orangutans. All of these, and many, many more, show homosexual behavior in the wild, and/or captivity.

Then again, there just animals and animals aren't the smartest. LOL

Theres been studies done in which theres a large number of the species put into the same place, homosexual behavior increases. It was thought of as a natural reaction to a species becomming overpopulated, and as a defense mechanism of a species to be able to stay alive and have a substancial food source for all of the species. There are also conflicting studies done that even when small numbers of a species are placed together, homosexual behavior still emerges.

I know that when I'm sexually attracted to a girl, I don't have to think about it. Its just a natural reaction for me. I don't have to look at her and go, "hmm, she looks pretty, I think I would be interested in her". Its just a natural reaction. Its the same for homosexuals - its a natural reaction for them. It has a lot to do with the way one's brain is wired, just like personality.

Right, BUT its not a natural reaction for them, they have the same brain as us, theres nothing that is wrong with them that makes them gay. Thats why i think its not natural. BTW. Are you gay? LOL j/w sounds like your not..?

From my understanding of that mindset, people who don't protest homosexuality from a religious standpoint do it from the standpoint that they aren't one of them. Humans (and most species) have a tendency to need to fit in, and form groups.

A good example is of a duck that I heard the other day. If a duckling
sees a human leg after its born, and brushes up to it only to be rejected, its behavior will be changed for the rest of its life.

Well that might be true for some, but not for me, that is my opionon, I think with my own brain, not by what people say to believe.

Likewise, people also tend to form groups, and don't like when these groups are threatened. Tolerance is in my mind a learned behavior. I had an Asian friend recently go to La Grange, Texas. She entered a bar with some friends which was an all-white bar. You could literally hear a pindrop at first, but later on they got used to her being there.

Well most people don't like change.. LOL

Its a natural reaction for us to not want people who aren't like us to be in our community. Look at the civil rights movement, why were people so opposed to African American's being in the US? I think its because people felt threatened by them. It wasn't "normal" to them, just like homosexuality isn't "normal" to us.

Okay I dont have a problem with gays, as long as they keep their hands off each other in public, but WHY do they have to have rights, is what I want to know. What would change? NOTHING! People will still NOT like them..


*edited to add this point:

I wish it were true that people who marry nonbelievers usually change them. It would make my parents marriage, and many others that I know about a helluva lot better.


Aww i'm sorry. I know what your saying, some change some don't, but I dont find that a sin, but I could/ can be wrong about that being a sin.




Thanks. :3oops: :lol:

Welcome.


It just shows you have passion for what you believe in, which is a good thing![/QUOTE]


Yes, I do lol. =]]

 

[JustineCredible]

Dude, first off, I plan to move to Austria when I'm around 24, second, I live in Canada, not the hell hole that is America.

Thirdly, I'm not a "Dude." :mrgreen:

 

[Courtneyx3]

Thirdly, I'm not a "Dude." :mrgreen:

LOL =]


And to add on to his comment, dont talk about The Land of the Free when you don't even LIVE here! :doh

 

[Bluefire]

Well aren't you Jewish? I do think we believe a little different. But then again I have only been taught its a sin to be homosexual.

Jewish? Hell no. :lol: I was brought up a protestant Christian, but currently am an Athiest.

I believe its not natural because God meant for us to find that certain someone, which that for me is because of religious reasons. But others just think its gross. I do too, i think its wierd. LOL

Just because its weird does that mean its bad? Back in the civil rights movement people thought it was weird for Blacks to have rights.

Then again, there just animals and animals aren't the smartest. LOL

Just because we're the smartest animal doesn't mean we're not animals.

Right, BUT its not a natural reaction for them, they have the same brain as us, theres nothing that is wrong with them that makes them gay. Thats why i think its not natural. BTW. Are you gay? LOL j/w sounds like your not..?

Hell no I'm not gay! My girlfriend would be mighty mad at that. :lol:

Seriously though, it actually is a natural reaction for them. They might have the same brain as us, but its not wired the same. Chemicals determine how we think and act.

At UT here, there was an ex professor named Gary Wise who had a frontal lobe Brain Anyruesm (sp?). One of the interesting things about this is he went from a beloved teacher, to one who was a psycho. He is in jail right now for shooting at Larry Faulker's house (he's the UT president). He also was accused of sexual harassment with some of his students.

This agressive behavior is actually fairly common with frontal lobe brain anyuresms. The reason is because, although we have the same brain, it rewires how we think.

Its like our personality - we have some control over it, but ultimately we are who we are. This is determined due to brain chemicals.

Look at people who are depressed: it is due to a lack of serotonin in the brain. The medicine that they receive increase the serotonin that the brain receives. This medicine is addictive as the brain grows to depend on it, but not fully addictive.

Why? Because science has shown with therapy you can actually rewire your brain to have increased serotonin levels. Sure, its the same brain, but there STILL is a difference. You have the same brain as someone who is depressed, but yet you aren't depressed!

Its all with how the chemicals in the brain work.

Okay I dont have a problem with gays, as long as they keep their hands off each other in public, but WHY do they have to have rights, is what I want to know. What would change? NOTHING! People will still NOT like them..

Do you not like gay people? You say that people don't like gay people - who, exactly, doesn't like gay people?

I have a few friends who are gay and they are great people. Why, if they choose to commit themselves to each other, should they not be able to get the same tax break that I would if I chose to marry my girlfriend?

In fact, I can take it one step further: What makes you so special that you should give privledges that they don't? The fact that you are straight? (Note that this sounds harsher then I mean it, I just can't think of a better way to say it, so sorry about that)

To ask if they HAVE to have rights is a slippery slope. Do the African Americans HAVE to have rights in the us? Do the Asian Americans? There are plenty of people who still don't like them. In fact, that was one of the primary arguments of the civil rights movements:

Do the African American's HAVE to have rights? People still wouldn't like them.

In fact, if you get to know them, you'd realize they're more like yourself then you would think. The African American's differ due to one reason: they're skin. Homosexuals differ from Heterosexuals due to one thing: preference for a sexual organ.

Aww i'm sorry. I know what your saying, some change some don't, but I dont find that a sin, but I could/ can be wrong about that being a sin.

One of the sane things about Christianity is that, at least in my church growing up, they taught that people should find with their relationship with God what they should believe.

Unfortunately, I found that all too often they don't practice what they preach.

 

[JustineCredible]

****What I meant was there are not specific rights to nonbelievers and believers getting married- its to any man and wife that are married. LOL THats what I meant..

====================

Moving on to the next thing. I said:

You said:

Actually, this is true. It was something that was touched on quite often when I spent years in the church and a Christian.

2 Corinthians 6:14:
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

*****Yes, but that doesnt mean you cant be friends/ date them, or even change them. You are suppose to invite them to church. That verse means dont do their ways. You can marry a nonbeliever- its not a rule that you can't, you can change that person.

So, in other words, it's ok for YOU to interpret the Bible as YOU see fit, but no one else, right?
You can pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow and which to not.
This is where the nickname: "Cafeteria Christian" comes from.

My point was that if gay marriage is so wrong that we should deny them the ability to get married and deny them the rights that our government places out for a union between two people, and its purely a spiritual reasoning behind it, why are the Christians perfectly okay with giving these same rights too someone who chooses to marry a believer and a nonbeliever?

**Because they can change. I dont think it is a sin but you know. America is not based on Chrisitainity, so why would they denie a believer and nonbeliever to marry? Its not like they can look at them and tell if they believe in Christ or not.*

Oh so now you're justifying your hatred because you "tell" homosexuals from heterosexuals. How superficial of you.

Both of these are sins in the eyes of God. God has commanded men in the Bible against both homosexuality and marriage between a believer and a non-believer. Yet, Christians aren't protesting against rights for believers and nonbelievers, just against rights for homosexuals who marry.

*Good point, but its not just Christians that protest against gays, its the world and the people in it. And Christians that marry nonbelievers usually bring that other person to Christ. Marring a nonchristian is natural though.*

"Usually" but not always. Honey, my brother is very content in his atheism, his wife has never changed him. She's Catholic, but knows that my brother cannot be "converted." It's a nonissue for them. They were well aware of this when they married, just as they are now, fifteen years later.
BTW: Your contention that the "world" is against gays is simply incorrect. My entire family is in complete support of my attaining my CIVIL right to marry my partner of ten years. They're all Catholics, with the exception of my brother and my converted Jewish cousin...but they both still support me and my partner.
ALL of my friends are in support of our being allowed access to legal marriage.
So, no, NOT everyone in the world is againt gays.
I know you're very adimant about your personal beliefs, and you're completely welcome to do so. I encourage you to utilize that right.
But that doesn't justify your insistence to infringe upon MY rights.

*I like talking to you, you bring out interesting points. LOL And your not pushing it on, you just ask and tell things. Sorry if I come off rude, when I "debate" points, i tend to get a little mad. haha