Gay National Guardsmen denied benefits by four states

[WorldWatcher]

From what I've read, the problem is Texas constitution doesn't jive with the policy, so military can't resolve the implimentation.

The State Constitution has nothing to do with federal policy. The problem isn't a "military implementation" problem. The military has no problem implementing equal treatment for it's soldiers with the invalidation of DOMA (Section 3), Texas has a problem allowing it's Guardsmen to be treated equally.


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[American]

The State Constitution has nothing to do with federal policy. The problem isn't a "military implementation" problem. The military has no problem implementing equal treatment for it's soldiers with the invalidation of DOMA (Section 3), Texas has a problem allowing it's Guardsmen to be treated equally.


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The Guard belongs to the state.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The Guard belongs to the state.

Understood, but....

1. They are applying for Federal ID cards and entry into DOD's (Federal) DEERS.

2. The Guard also receives massive funding from the Federal government to purchase and maintain equipment.




Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the Guardsmen shouldn't be getting Fedreal IDs? No?

Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the state should pay the bills? No?


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[American]

Understood, but....

1. They are applying for Federal ID cards and entry into DOD's (Federal) DEERS.

2. The Guard also receives massive funding from the Federal government to purchase and maintain equipment.




Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the Guardsmen shouldn't be getting Fedreal IDs? No?

Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the state should pay the bills? No?


>>>>

So did Egypt, doesn't make it part of the federal govt.

 

[WorldWatcher]

The Guard belongs to the state.

So did Egypt, doesn't make it part of the federal govt.

Didn't say it did, but then Egypt doesn't get a Federal ID card or eligibility for Federal benefits as a component of the National Department of Defense, Guardsmen do.


The implication from your post is that the Guard is solely a responsibility of the state. It's not, if it were then they (single, different-sex Civilly Married, or same-sex Civilly Married) wouldn't be eligible for a Federal ID card and enrollment in DEERS.

The fact of the matter is, according the Federal Law (Title 10, Subtitle E, Part I, Chapter 1003, Section 10101) the Guard is a reserve component of the armed forces of the United States. They receive federal funding (in part) and are eligible for federal benefits.



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[clownboy]

Anyone who continues to support a ban on gay marriage, supports discrimination.

Those statements are in abundance in this thread and throughout the forums history.

This is not difficult stuff, but the pre-requisite is being able to read...

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I support continuing the ban on marrying your own brother or sister. Doesn't mean I "support discrimination". But then that's my opinion. Not difficult stuff to understand.

 

[WorldWatcher]

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I support continuing the ban on marrying your own brother or sister. Doesn't mean I "support discrimination". But then that's my opinion. Not difficult stuff to understand.

Discrimination : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually
Discrimination - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


Sure does mean you support discrimination, I do it all the time. If you support not allowing people in the category of "brother or sister" to Civilly Marry - that is discrimination. Now whether from a government standpoint that discrimination should or shouldn't be allowed depends on the pro's and con's of a "compelling government interest".

What discrimination is, is really not so hard to understand when one steps back and looks at it logically instead of emotionally. Discrimination can have a valid purpose, for example we discriminate as a function of government against blind people. As a category, we do not allow them to operate multi-ton vehicles at high rates of speed on pubic roads. Is that discrimination? Sure. Is there a compelling government interest? Yep.



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[clownboy]

Discrimination : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually
Discrimination - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


Sure does mean you support discrimination, I do it all the time. If you support not allowing people in the category of "brother or sister" to Civilly Marry - that is discrimination. Now whether from a government standpoint that discrimination should or shouldn't be allowed depends on the pro's and con's of a "compelling government interest".

What discrimination is, is really not so hard to understand when one steps back and looks at it logically instead of emotionally. Discrimination can have a valid purpose, for example we discriminate as a function of government against blind people. As a category, we do not allow them to operate multi-ton vehicles at high rates of speed on pubic roads. Is that discrimination? Sure. Is there a compelling government interest? Yep.



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Indeed and I agree. However, there is a functional difference in using the terms in an analytical sense versus use as indictment as is done here.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Indeed and I agree. However, there is a functional difference in using the terms in an analytical sense versus use as indictment as is done here.

I'm more of a logical thinker I guess and tend to shy away from ad hominem types of threads (although I'm not perfrect and slip once-in-awhile).

But I just don't understand people that can say - I support the government not allowing same-sex couples to Civilly Marry, or the Federal government should not recognize the legal marriage of same-sex couples, or the State treats Guardsmen differently depending whether they are married to same- or opposite-sex spouses and that that is not discrimination. Of course it is. It fits the very definition of discrimination.


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[clownboy]

I'm more of a logical thinker I guess and tend to shy away from ad hominem types of threads (although I'm not perfrect and slip once-in-awhile).

But I just don't understand people that can say - I support the government not allowing same-sex couples to Civilly Marry, or the Federal government should not recognize the legal marriage of same-sex couples, or the State treats Guardsmen differently depending whether they are married to same- or opposite-sex spouses and that that is not discrimination. Of course it is. It fits the very definition of discrimination.


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I understand, but surely you see that some words/terms are loaded with extra meaning and cultural context. Changes with the generation and the milieu.

 

[apdst]

The benefits were not denied, the ability to apply for the benefits was/is allowed for different-sex couples but is being denied to same-sex couples. The couple can still go to a federal installation and apply.

So if a Guardsman is in a different-sex Civil Marriage, they can apply at their local Armory or state office. However let's say a Guardsman is Civilly Married to a member of the same sex and lives 300 miles away from the nearest federal military installation. That means a lost days wages for taking off a day, a 10-hour round trip to drive to the base, and the cost of a tank of gas. Potentially hundreds of dollars and a day wasted.



>>>>

Ok.. what benefits was application denied? As far as I know the NG doesn't offer benefirs.

 

[apdst]

Understood, but....

1. They are applying for Federal ID cards and entry into DOD's (Federal) DEERS.

2. The Guard also receives massive funding from the Federal government to purchase and maintain equipment.





Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the Guardsmen shouldn't be getting Fedreal IDs? No?

Seems like if the Guard belongs solely to the state, then the state should pay the bills? No?


>>>>

The NG doesn't process application for active duty benefits.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Yes, Texas, the state where the Constitution denies you freedoms rather than enshrine them. Seriously where do these folks get off on talking about being "pro-military?"

This is because the National Guard is commanded and administered and financed by the state unless it is Nationalized.

And the Supreme Court already stated that this is up to the individual states.

So if these states do not recognize Gay Marriage, then it is their right to do so.

If they do not like this, then they should have joined the Reserve of one of the branches of military, not the National Guard.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Ok.. what benefits was application denied? As far as I know the NG doesn't offer benefirs.

The NG doesn't process application for active duty benefits.

Ummm...

They process applications for Federal ID Cards (Reserve ID's) and DEERS which makes the recipient and their dependent eligible for an array of federal benefits including:

Base Exchange and Commissary

VA Home Loans

Space A Travel

Retirement plans (with a Survivor Benefit Option for the spouse)

Burial Assistance and Veterians Burial Plot (Guardsman and Spouse)

Military Dearth Gratuity

and IIRC, if the Guardsman is activated for Federal service their spouse then qualifies for Base Medical/TriCare.​

Benefits | Air National Guard


Then there is eligibility for SGLI and FSGLI which requires enrolllment so the spouse can be the beneficiary.

In the post you quoted I didn't say they provided "active duty benefits" I said they were applying for the Federal ID care and enrolling in DEERS - the benefits would be National Guard benefits provided by the Federal government.

Some benefits are available immediately, some only based on being called to active Federal service.



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[WorldWatcher]

This is because the National Guard is commanded and administered and financed by the state unless it is Nationalized.

You might want to check that.

Funding is derived from both State and Federal sources. For example the Texas National Guard Request for 2013 was $43,001,957. While the state will supply most of the personnel expenses, the DOD (IIRC) supplies a large chuck of the money for equipment.

Ensuring the Guard is equipped is something that has to be done in advance of calling a Guard unit up for National service. Calling up an group of unequipped and untrained people in time of emergency isn't a very good idea. Therefore Gaurd units are equipped ahead of time.


Google Search for -->> www.txmf.us/.../Adjutant_Generals_Department_LAR_2012-2013_1_.p...‎ and it will link to the PDF.


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[apdst]

Ummm...

They process applications for Federal ID Cards (Reserve ID's) and DEERS which makes the recipient and their dependent eligible for an array of federal benefits including:

Base Exchange and Commissary

VA Home Loans

Space A Travel

Retirement plans (with a Survivor Benefit Option for the spouse)

Burial Assistance and Veterians Burial Plot (Guardsman and Spouse)

Military Dearth Gratuity

and IIRC, if the Guardsman is activated for Federal service their spouse then qualifies for Base Medical/TriCare.​

Benefits | Air National Guard


Then there is eligibility for SGLI and FSGLI which requires enrolllment so the spouse can be the beneficiary.

In the post you quoted I didn't say they provided "active duty benefits" I said they were applying for the Federal ID care and enrolling in DEERS - the benefits would be National Guard benefits provided by the Federal government.

Some benefits are available immediately, some only based on being called to active Federal service.



>>>>

Reserve ID cards. Not active duty ID vards nor dependent ID cads for active duty personell.

Marital status has nothing to do with anything you listed.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Ummm...

They process applications for Federal ID Cards (Reserve ID's) and DEERS which makes the recipient and their dependent eligible for an array of federal benefits including:

Base Exchange and Commissary

VA Home Loans

Space A Travel

Retirement plans (with a Survivor Benefit Option for the spouse)

Burial Assistance and Veterians Burial Plot (Guardsman and Spouse)

Military Dearth Gratuity

and IIRC, if the Guardsman is activated for Federal service their spouse then qualifies for Base Medical/TriCare.​

Benefits | Air National Guard


Then there is eligibility for SGLI and FSGLI which requires enrolllment so the spouse can be the beneficiary.

In the post you quoted I didn't say they provided "active duty benefits" I said they were applying for the Federal ID care and enrolling in DEERS - the benefits would be National Guard benefits provided by the Federal government.

Some benefits are available immediately, some only based on being called to active Federal service.



>>>>

Reserve ID cards. Not active duty ID vards nor dependent ID cads for active duty personell.

What part of I didn't specify "active duty ID" care are you not seeing. I said very clearly, "Federal ID" cards. The Reserve ID card is a DOD Federal ID card.

Marital status has nothing to do with anything you listed.

Incorrect:

Qualification for a VA Home loan is dependent on the members VA status AND the amount of the combined income of the member and the spouse.

Flying Space A with your spouse requires the spouse to have an ID card.

Retirement plans and the option of Survivor Benefit Plan payout to your spouse requires the spouse to have an ID card.

Spousal burial in a Veterans Cemetery is based on the person being a spouse, in other words Martial Status matters.

For the spouse to receive the death gratuity, Marital Status is a factor. If not then it goes to the next next-of-kin, normally a parent or sibling.

For the spouse to have access to the base for Commissary and Exchange privileges, they have to have an ID card.

And yes marital status is a factor in determining the spouse for access to medical and TriCare services during a time of national call up.​

Remember this isn't about the benefits afforded to the Guardsman, this is about the spouse receiving a Federal ID card and enrolling in DEERS so that when the Guardsman is called up they (the spouse) will have access to the benefits they are authorized.



>>>>

 

[Oozlefinch]

You might want to check that.

I do not need to "check that" my friend, I know my facts.

You are the one running around throwing a ton of **** around hoping that something will stick.

When National Guard units are not under federal control, the governor is the commander-in-chief of the units of his or her respective state, territory (Guam, Virgin Islands), or commonwealth (Puerto Rico).

National Guard of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why are so people so resistant to listen to people who really know what they are talking about? You are aware that you have spent pages telling people who are or were in the military that they are wrong about something to basic?

Let me guess, you also went and told your doctor when you had a migraine that it was The President's fault, right?

 

[WorldWatcher]

I do not need to "check that" my friend, I know my facts.

You are the one running around throwing a ton of **** around hoping that something will stick.

So let's review:

#1 I said that that Guardsmen get Federal ID cards and you try to play it like I said Active Duty ID cards and that reservists don't get Active Duty ID cards. Reservists do in fact get Federal ID cards. So you create a strawman and then argue against what I didn't say.

#2 You said that the Guard is funded by the State and I said that funding for State Guard units comes in part for DOD (where the state funds personnel and the DOD funds equipment) and provide a link showing the Texas budget proposal with 43,000,000 in Federal funds and you provide a link to wiki showing operational control of the Governor when not called up for Federal service. So you create a strawman and then argue against what I didn't say.

#3 You claim that none of the benefits I listed and linked to from the National Guard Page, have anything do to with marital status. However a "friend" doesn't qualify for Space "A" travel - in this context they have to be a spouse with an ID card, a "friend" doesn't qualify for Survivor Benefit Option at retirement where you have to be a spouse to receive a portion of the military members retirement if that person dies, a "friend" doesen't qualify for burial next to the Guardsman in a Veteran's Cemetary if the Guardsman qualifies - they have to be a spouse, a "friend" doesn't qualify for Base exchange/commissary/MWR priviligens - that would be a spouse, a "friends" doesn't qualify for medical treatment and TriCare during periods of callup - that would be a spouse.​

You asked "Ok.. what benefits was application denied? As far as I know the NG doesn't offer benefirs." Assuming you asked what benefits this ID card and applications denied, I provided some answers from a National Guard web site.

National Guard of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And from your own link...

"The National Guard is a joint activity of the United States Department of Defense (DoD) composed of reserve components of the United States Army and the United States Air Force: the Army National Guard of the United States[1] and the Air National Guard of the United States respectively."

The claim was that the National Guard was solely a function of the state as to command, control, and funding. That is wrong. The Reserves are a joint venture, fall under DOD as part of the military, and receive funding from DOD (in part.)

Why are so people so resistant to listen to people who really know what they are talking about? You are aware that you have spent pages telling people who are or were in the military that they are wrong about something to basic?

You've demonstrated that you don't know what you are really talking about when you claim that the NG doesn't process applications for Guardsman to receive federal benefits. They do - the benefits available are supplied by DOD and the VA (both federal agencies) and can be in addition to any benefits directly from the state.

You've demonstrated that you don't know how the Guard is actually funded if you think all the funds are financed by the State. They aren't.

You've demonstrated that you don't know about spousal benefits for military personnel when you claim that Marital Status has nothing to do for for Federal benefits I provided that have to do with spousal eligibility. They are eligible.

Let me guess, you also went and told your doctor when you had a migraine that it was The President's fault, right?

That's pretty stupid. If you had guessed that I'm retired military then you would have been closer.


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[Oozlefinch]

The claim was that the National Guard was solely a function of the state as to command, control, and funding. That is wrong. The Reserves are a joint venture, fall under DOD as part of the military, and receive funding from DOD (in part.)

I never stated that. However, their Commander In Chief is not the President, it is the Governor of the state they are based out of.

You are also attributing to me a lot of stuff that I did not say. But you still fail to grasp that the National Guard is run by the individual states, not the Federal Government. They handle their own recruiting, promotions and retention outside of that done by the Active Duty and Reserve components.

But hey, knock yourself out buddy. You are the one pounding your head in the wall and refusing to grasp the difference, not me.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>

Here is another link (sorry it's not Wiki) showing some state funding for the Guard:

"The Army National Guard program is funded with a combination of general fund and federal funds. General fund
accounts for about 11.4% of total funding. The funding ratio between general fund and federal funds depends on the
nature of the activity, the use or location of the facility, and the goals of the operation. Possible scenarios include
funding:
o Entirely with state funds
o Entirely with federal funds
o As a shared responsibility, with federal funds at 75% and general fund at 25% or 50% federal and 50% general
fund

When a facility is owned by the state and located on state land, maintenance and utility costs are split evenly with the
federal government."​

Google -->> "Federal National Guard Budget site:.gov" to see the Montanna NG Budget Summary


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[WorldWatcher]

I never stated that. However, their Commander In Chief is not the President, it is the Governor of the state they are based out of.

You are also attributing to me a lot of stuff that I did not say. But you still fail to grasp that the National Guard is run by the individual states, not the Federal Government. They handle their own recruiting, promotions and retention outside of that done by the Active Duty and Reserve components.

But hey, knock yourself out buddy. You are the one pounding your head in the wall and refusing to grasp the difference, not me.

Here is what you said:

Ok.. what benefits was application denied? As far as I know the NG doesn't offer benefirs.

The NG doesn't process application for active duty benefits.

This is because the National Guard is commanded and administered and financed by the state unless it is Nationalized.

Reserve ID cards. Not active duty ID vards nor dependent ID cads for active duty personell.

Marital status has nothing to do with anything you listed.

#1 - I didn't say they received active duty ID cards, which is what you argued against in a previous post - I very carefully choose the term "federal ID card" which is what a DOD Reserve ID card is.

#2 - I never said the National Guard wasn't run by the States - that is a strawman of your own making. You claimed that the NG was also financed by the state. I showed you were the financing was a joint activity from the State AND DOD.

#3 - You claimed that the spousal benefits available to the Guardsman's family had nothing to do with marital status, totally false.


********************************

Does the Guard receive a federal ID card so they can receive some federal benefits? Yes

Is the Guard under operational control of the State unless called up? Yes

Do States receive funding from DOD (i.e. Federal Funds) for equipment/operations/maintenance as part of their operating budgets? Yes

Are State Guard units totally funded by a State budget? No

Are the spouses of State Guardsmen eligible for some of the benefits available to active duty forces? Yes



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[Oozlefinch]

Here is what you said:

You provided one quite by me, and 3 by somebody else.

Sorry, complete fail. Why do you insist that I said something that even your own quotes show was posted by somebody else?

And no, I am not adpst in disguise.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You provided one quite by me, and 3 by somebody else.

Sorry, complete fail. Why do you insist that I said something that even your own quotes show was posted by somebody else?

And no, I am not adpst in disguise.

My bad on that. I apologize for my error in terms of the flow of the comments.


>>>>

 

[apdst]

My bad on that. I apologize for my error in terms of the flow of the comments.


>>>>

National Gaurd units don't process anything you've menetioned.

The National Gaurd doesn't process burials in national cemetaries...period.

Nothing you've said is correct.