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Gay marrige is fine

heyjoeo

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Ya I accidently deleted this

Pacridge said:
You realize that "Gay" refers to male homo...Oh never mind.
I guess. Not really. Who cares?
 

liberal1

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

I have no problem whatsoever if gays marry. If it doesn't effect me why do I care. For an example, if your neighbor was gay and married, I don't think it would upset your daily routine, would it?
 

heyjoeo

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

And I swear if someone follows that up with something about "my child may see them and be corrupted!" I will shoot you in the face.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Not very compassionate for a liberal, are you? Homosexuality is imoral, therefore every parent has a right to control their children's exposer to it. No one has the right to cram their beliefes down anyones throat (pardon the expression).
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

liberal1 said:
I have no problem whatsoever if gays marry. If it doesn't effect me why do I care. For an example, if your neighbor was gay and married, I don't think it would upset your daily routine, would it?
If gays were alowed to marry it would, infact, lead to the slow distruction of American society as we know it. Look at the Netherlands. Gay marriage was legalized there years ago and they've expirenced a sharp decline in marriage, a sharp increase in divorce, and a sharp increase in out of wedlock births. This has all led to a vast increase in the number of broken homes with children. All current social science data shows us that the best enviornment in which to raise a child is an intact traditional home. Children in broken, or nontraditional homes, are more likely to expirence poverty, academic faliure, drug use, abuse, mental problems, and are themselves more likely to have children out of marriage. This leads to more broken families, crime rates raise, dependence on the state raises, the number of those recieving medicare and welfare raises, taxes go up (as does unemployment), and the economy crashes. All of this as a direct result of gay marriage. So I think you would notice.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

heyjoeo said:
And I swear if someone follows that up with something about "my child may see them and be corrupted!" I will shoot you in the face.
Not very compassionate for a liberal, are you? Homosexuality is imoral, therefore every parent has a right to control their children's exposer to it. No one has the right to cram their beliefes down anyones throat (pardon the expression).
 

Naughty Nurse

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
more broken families, crime rates raise, dependence on the state raises, the number of those recieving medicare and welfare raises, taxes go up (as does unemployment), and the economy crashes. All of this as a direct result of gay marriage.
Really?
Honestly?
Truly?

What are you on?
 

Pacridge

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
If gays were alowed to marry it would, infact, lead to the slow distruction of American society as we know it. Look at the Netherlands. Gay marriage was legalized there years ago and they've expirenced a sharp decline in marriage, a sharp increase in divorce, and a sharp increase in out of wedlock births. This has all led to a vast increase in the number of broken homes with children. All current social science data shows us that the best enviornment in which to raise a child is an intact traditional home. Children in broken, or nontraditional homes, are more likely to expirence poverty, academic faliure, drug use, abuse, mental problems, and are themselves more likely to have children out of marriage. This leads to more broken families, crime rates raise, dependence on the state raises, the number of those recieving medicare and welfare raises, taxes go up (as does unemployment), and the economy crashes. All of this as a direct result of gay marriage. So I think you would notice.
Where are you getting any of these numbers and or facts? Last time I saw a divorce rate numbers on the Netherlands it was in a study regarding drug abuse and drug legalization. I can honestly for the US to have a divorce rate at or near the Netherland's ours would have to go down.

I do agree that children in broken homes have more problems than that of children in non-broken homes. But to say that children in nontraditional homes experience the same is pure BS. Nontraditional homes and broken homes are not the same thing.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Naughty Nurse said:
Really?
Honestly?
Truly?

What are you on?
I wouldn't expect everyone to understand the complicated way our government works, that certain elements affect others. Broken families lead to disadvantaged children, these children lack education. Lack of education leads to unemployment. Unemployment leads to poverty, hence the rise in poverty and unemployment. Poverty leads to crime. Hence the rise in crime rates. Poverty also leads to a greater dependence on the State (welfare, healthcare, food stamps, ect.). Greater dependence on the State leads to a drain on government money. The government ges its money from tax payers, hence the rise in taxes. So: broken families lead to an increase in unemployment, an increase in poverty, an increase in crime and an increase in taxes (or the deficit).

If you have any trouble understanding the previous paragraph, please consult a middle school social studies text-book.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Pacridge said:
Where are you getting any of these numbers and or facts? Last time I saw a divorce rate numbers on the Netherlands it was in a study regarding drug abuse and drug legalization. I can honestly for the US to have a divorce rate at or near the Netherland's ours would have to go down.

I do agree that children in broken homes have more problems than that of children in non-broken homes. But to say that children in nontraditional homes experience the same is pure BS. Nontraditional homes and broken homes are not the same thing.
My numbers on divorce rates can be found in any social science study done on the Netherlands. The legalization of gay marriage led to something known as "flash annulments", and a vast increase in divorce rates.

To say that children in broken homes experience problems that children in non-traditional homes do not is, in fact, BS. Children in families with single and Cohabitant parents experience the same, if not worse, social problems than children in families with divorced parents. Why should we expect any different from other variants of the family? One factor of traditional homes is the unique factors each sex have to offer as parents. This is something non-traditional families, and certainly same-sex families, lack.
 

Pacridge

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
My numbers on divorce rates can be found in any social science study done on the Netherlands. The legalization of gay marriage led to something known as "flash annulments", and a vast increase in divorce rates.

To say that children in broken homes experience problems that children in non-traditional homes do not is, in fact, BS. Children in families with single and Cohabitant parents experience the same, if not worse, social problems than children in families with divorced parents. Why should we expect any different from other variants of the family? One factor of traditional homes is the unique factors each sex have to offer as parents. This is something non-traditional families, and certainly same-sex families, lack.
So, post your source.

Second you're making a claim here about the experience of children in homes without any reference as to where you're getting this data. Someone could just as easily post that the children in nontraditional homes fare far better and that what you're saying is indeed BS. Find some facts, back up your BS or pack it in.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Pacridge said:
So, post your source.

Second you're making a claim here about the experience of children in homes without any reference as to where you're getting this data. Someone could just as easily post that the children in nontraditional homes fare far better and that what you're saying is indeed BS. Find some facts, back up your BS or pack it in.
First of all, I want to compliment you on your massive use of the term "BS". It serves as an indicator to us all of what an intellectual challenge we are heading into. Second, I assumed you knew how to use google, but since you apparently don't, here you go.

Sources:
For the Netherlands data:
The Transatlantic Divide on Marriage: Dutch Data and the U.S. Debate on Same-Sex Unions by Patrick F. Fagan and Grace Smith

For your new complaint, Children in traditional families:
The Positive Effects of Marriage: A Book of Charts by Robert E. Rector, Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D., Patrick Fagan, and America Peterson

Marriage: Still the Safest Place For Women and Children
by Robert E. Rector, Patrick F. Fagan, and Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D.

Wow, three independent studies! And I only searched google once!
 

Pacridge

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
First of all, I want to compliment you on your massive use of the term "BS". It serves as an indicator to us all of what an intellectual challenge we are heading into. Second, I assumed you knew how to use google, but since you apparently don't, here you go.

Sources:
For the Netherlands data:
The Transatlantic Divide on Marriage: Dutch Data and the U.S. Debate on Same-Sex Unions by Patrick F. Fagan and Grace Smith

For your new complaint, Children in traditional families:
The Positive Effects of Marriage: A Book of Charts by Robert E. Rector, Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D., Patrick Fagan, and America Peterson

Marriage: Still the Safest Place For Women and Children
by Robert E. Rector, Patrick F. Fagan, and Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D.

Wow, three independent studies! And I only searched google once!
Wow! three independent sources all from the same source, "The Heritage Foundation" all authored, basically, by the same people. Now who would call BS on that tactic?

Having suddenly been instructed how to do a simply Goggle search and in keeping with your fine tactics- here's three "independent" sources from the "The Human Rights Campaign." They're all from the same site, like yours, However I couldn't duplicate your tactic of repeatedly using the same author. And though mine are located on the same web page, you'll note they all come from separate sources. Including that liberal rag "The Wall Street Journal."

Kids Adjust Fine in Gay Households, Kathy Megan Chicago Tribune
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/2004_May/Kids_Adjust_Fine_in_Gay_Households.htm


Experts Dispute Bush on Gay-Adoption Issue, New York Times
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/2005_January/Experts_Dispute_Bush_on_Gay-Adoption_Issue.htm

Blocking Gay Adoptions Hurts Kids Al Hunt, Wall Street Journal
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/20029/Blocking_Gay_Adoptions_Hurts_Kids.htm
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Pacridge said:
Wow! three independent sources all from the same source, "The Heritage Foundation" all authored, basically, by the same people. Now who would call BS on that tactic?

Having suddenly been instructed how to do a simply Goggle search and in keeping with your fine tactics- here's three "independent" sources from the "The Human Rights Campaign." They're all from the same site, like yours, However I couldn't duplicate your tactic of repeatedly using the same author. And though mine are located on the same web page, you'll note they all come from separate sources. Including that liberal rag "The Wall Street Journal."

Kids Adjust Fine in Gay Households, Kathy Megan Chicago Tribune
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/2004_May/Kids_Adjust_Fine_in_Gay_Households.htm


Experts Dispute Bush on Gay-Adoption Issue, New York Times
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/2005_January/Experts_Dispute_Bush_on_Gay-Adoption_Issue.htm

Blocking Gay Adoptions Hurts Kids Al Hunt, Wall Street Journal
http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/News3/20029/Blocking_Gay_Adoptions_Hurts_Kids.htm
Sorry, I assumed by your previous inability to use google that you might not be able to click on a link. I just went with the first three studies I found, which were all from an independent source (more than I can say for the Chicago Tribune or New York Times).

By the way, my three sources were independent studies, yours are all biased news stories. Do you see the difference between news stories and independent studies?

Now, I won't take your first two "independent" sources seriously, so lets just ignore them. The third source however interested me, seeing as how it was from a conservative source. So I wasn't all that surprised when I saw it was an opinion piece. Also, the opinion piece was based on one study, a study by the American Academy of Pediatrics that was very controversial and did not garner support from all of its members. This opinion piece also made the blatantly rude comparison between the civil-rights movement and the gay-rights movement. I suggest that you read more than the title and authors of the sources I listed.
 

Naughty Nurse

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
I wouldn't expect everyone to understand the complicated way our government works, that certain elements affect others. Broken families lead to disadvantaged children, these children lack education. Lack of education leads to unemployment. Unemployment leads to poverty, hence the rise in poverty and unemployment. Poverty leads to crime. Hence the rise in crime rates. Poverty also leads to a greater dependence on the State (welfare, healthcare, food stamps, ect.). Greater dependence on the State leads to a drain on government money. The government ges its money from tax payers, hence the rise in taxes. So: broken families lead to an increase in unemployment, an increase in poverty, an increase in crime and an increase in taxes (or the deficit).
I read the first of the three *independent* sources you later quoted. The authors themselves stated that there is no link between gay marriage and the failure of traditional marriage. Everything you say above is true, but is completely irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage.

ConservativeShane said:
If you have any trouble understanding the previous paragraph, please consult a middle school social studies text-book.
Oh, thanks for the advice. But, oh dear, we don't have *middle schools* here in the UK. What do you suggest I do now, as I am clearly incapable of independent thought? (Don't patronise)
 

Pacridge

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
Sorry, I assumed by your previous inability to use google that you might not be able to click on a link. I just went with the first three studies I found, which were all from an independent source (more than I can say for the Chicago Tribune or New York Times).

By the way, my three sources were independent studies, yours are all biased news stories. Do you see the difference between news stories and independent studies?

Now, I won't take your first two "independent" sources seriously, so lets just ignore them. The third source however interested me, seeing as how it was from a conservative source. So I wasn't all that surprised when I saw it was an opinion piece. Also, the opinion piece was based on one study, a study by the American Academy of Pediatrics that was very controversial and did not garner support from all of its members. This opinion piece also made the blatantly rude comparison between the civil-rights movement and the gay-rights movement. I suggest that you read more than the title and authors of the sources I listed.
Let's just ignore them? I'm noticing a pattern. So you refuse to accept the Chicago Tribune, The New York Times, and finally even the Wall Street Journal as independent sources. But want me to accept your one source, The Heritage Foundation, as an independent source. Interesting. You and I both know The Heritage Foundation is an ultra right wing conservative group who most certainly is pushing an agenda. Just like you and I both know that the source I gathered all my resources from is a pro-gay rights organization, they most certainly have an agenda they'd like forwarded. So we can go in circles. You'll cite some work by Tim Kane and I'll cite some work by David Richards etc... Then you'll find a source that discredits or labels my source as dishonest. Or, who knows maybe I'll beat you to that move. Wow, thanks to the very informative lesson on this new thing called Goggle. I was able to find all kinds of discrediting sources by simply typing in "heritage foundation lies numbers." I think even you might be able to see where I'm going with this. Bottom line is we could go in these circles for ever and I'm certain neither one of us would ever have any changes in our personal beliefs. So why not just agree to disagree. Personally I've never been that fond of Tic-Tac-Toe.
 

mixedmedia

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http://slate.msn.com/id/2100884/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0830/p17s01-cogn.html

Here's a couple of links for you, ConservativeShane. witty, witty name by the way.

I would especially like to see you dispute the statistics in the slate.com article above. If you want to seriously debate these issues with us I suggest you find real data, university studies, census information, REAL journalism. You're not going to get very far here slinging around revisionist Heritage Foundation bullshit (happy now?).

So even if we were to swallow your damaged rhetoric and gay marriage is directly attributable to an increase in broken homes & delinquency in the Netherlands, I suppose it is safe to say, since we don't have gay marriage here & no shortage of the same familial conditions, that heterosexual marriage has the same debilitating effect on society. Maybe folks ought to stop getting married all together?
 

shuamort

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
Not very compassionate for a liberal, are you? Homosexuality is imoral, therefore every parent has a right to control their children's exposer to it. No one has the right to cram their beliefes down anyones throat (pardon the expression).
So you're saying that homosexuality is immoral. That's YOUR belief. And you're OK shoving YOUR belief down other people's throats?

Good grief. The hypocrasy is so delicious, mind if I have a piece?

(Edited from irony to hypocrasy)
 

mixedmedia

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

shuamort said:
Good grief. The hypocrasy is so delicious, mind if I have a piece?
Moral hypocrisy...it's what's for dinner.

VALUES – GOP PASSION FOR PORN: Lost in the media's myopic focus on "conservative moral values" is the explicit connection between porn providers and right-wing politicians. As ABC News reports, the nation's major cable companies reap millions from selling hardcore pay-per-view porn in homes across the country, then turn around and fill the coffers of right-wing politicians who trumpet "moral values." President Bush and the Republican Party received nearly $1 million from Comcast Cable, for instance, while Adelphia Communications "has given $166,000 to Republican committees, $17,000 to conservative Rep. John Peterson, R-Pa., and $12,000 to Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., one of the most conservative members of the Senate." Conservative activists say "the rush of major America companies to profit from porn…is hypocrisy fueled by billions in corporate profits."

And how much you wanna bet that SOME of that porn money comes from the dessemination (on yeah, pun intended) of GAY porn. I love how money trumps morality every time for these two-stepping, bible-thumping blowhards. Just thinking about Rick Santorum paying the power bill at his campaign office with money made by the porn industry makes me smile. And they say there's nothing good in the news these days.
 

ConservativeShane

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

Naughty Nurse said:
I read the first of the three *independent* sources you later quoted. The authors themselves stated that there is no link between gay marriage and the failure of traditional marriage. Everything you say above is true, but is completely irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage.



Oh, thanks for the advice. But, oh dear, we don't have *middle schools* here in the UK. What do you suggest I do now, as I am clearly incapable of independent thought? (Don't patronise)
Do you use have quotation marks in the UK, or is that thing you do with asterisk just the result of not having middle school? (The previous statement was a joke, in case you don't have those in the UK either).
 

Schweddy

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Re: Ya I accidently deleted this

ConservativeShane said:
Do you use have quotation marks in the UK, or is that thing you do with asterisk just the result of not having middle school? (The previous statement was a joke, in case you don't have those in the UK either).
The use of personal attacks does not make us conservatives look good CS.

We all should try to be a little more constructive and bring the debate back up to the higher standard that makes Debate Politics unique with our peirs. It also makes for a more smooth discussion. :)
 
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