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Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

Gay Marriage, is it right to stop it?

  • No

    Votes: 99 79.2%
  • Yes, explain

    Votes: 26 20.8%

  • Total voters
    125
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CaptainCourtesy

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Continued...

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & van den Boom, D. C. (2004). Experience of parenthood, couple relationship, social support, and child-rearing goals in planned lesbian mother families. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45, 755-764.

The phenomenon of planned lesbian families is relatively new. The overall aim of this research was to examine whether planned lesbian mother families differ from heterosexual families on factors that are assumed to influence the parent-child relationship, such as experience of parenthood, child-rearing goals, couple relationship, and social support. One hundred lesbian two-mother families were compared with 100 heterosexual families having naturally conceived children. A variety of measures were used to collect the data, including questionnaires and a diary of activities kept by the parents. Lesbian parents are no less competent or more burdened than heterosexual parents. Both lesbian and heterosexual parents consider it important to develop qualities of independence in their children. However, "conformity" as a childrearing goal is less important to lesbian mothers. Furthermore, lesbian social mothers feel more often than fathers in heterosexual families that they must justify the quality of their parenthood. There are few differences between lesbian couples and heterosexual couples, except that lesbian mothers appear less attuned to traditional child-rearing goals and lesbian social mothers appear more to defend their position as mother.
Lesbian parents vs. Biological parents. Both are equally competent and unburdened. Styles may be different, but no other differences.

That's SIX (and a rather nice six, I might add).

Flaks, D., Ficher, I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 104-114.

Compared 15 lesbian couples and the 3- to 9-year-old children born to them through donor insemination with 15 matched, heterosexual-parent families. A variety of assessment measures were used to evaluate the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship quality and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children, who also compared favorably with the standardization samples for the instruments used. In addition, no significant differences were found between dyadic adjustment of lesbian and heterosexual couples. Only in the area of parenting did the two groups of couples differ: Lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did heterosexual couples. The implications of these findings are discussed.
Lesbian parents vs. heterosexual parents. No differences except that the lesbian parents exhibited more parenting awareness.

That's SEVEN. Your "biological" position smells real bad right now. :2razz:

McPherson, D. (1993). Gay parenting couples: Parenting arrangements, arrangement satisfaction, and relationship satisfaction. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology.

Twenty-eight gay male parenting couples and 27 heterosexual parenting couples from across the United States participated in a study comparing gay parenting couples and heterosexual parenting couples. Gay parenting couples are already existing gay couples into which a child has been brought prior to the child's 9-month birthday and in which the child is presently being reared. Parents' division of labor and satisfaction with their division of labor was assessed using Cowan and Cowan's Who Does What? Relationship satisfaction was assessed using a single question on relationship satisfaction and Spanier's 32-item Dyadic Adjustment Scale (DAS). Results revealed gay parenting couples demonstrate significantly more equitable arrangements of parenting tasks and roles and significantly greater satisfaction with those arrangements than the heterosexual parenting couples. A single question on relationship satisfaction revealed no significant difference between groups in reported satisfaction, while the 32-item DAS revealed the gay parenting couples to be significantly more satisfied with their relationships than the heterosexual couples, especially in the area of dyadic cohesion and affective expression. Post-hoc testing revealed a gender difference: Women reported significantly greater dissatisfaction with parenting arrangements than their husbands or gay parents. Findings are explained in terms of three factors unique to the experience and social setting of gay parenting couples.
Gay male couples vs. heterosexual couples. The gay couples were happier and more equitable in their parenting tasks. Other than that, no significant differences.

That's EIGHT.

Miller, B. (1979). Gay fathers and their children. Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

Presents data from a 3-year study on the quality and nature of the relationships of homosexual fathers with their children. In-depth interviews were conducted with a snowball sample of 40 gay fathers and 14 of their children. Uses a cross-national sample: Interviews were conducted in large and small cities in both Canada and the United States. Excluded from the study were men who no longer saw their children. Fathers were aged from 24 to 64, and the children who were interviewed ranged from 14 to 33 years of age. Addresses the nature of the father-child relationship and the children's adjustment to their father's homosexuality. Four issues frequently raised in custody cases are discussed: Do gay fathers have children to cover their homosexuality, do they molest their children, do their children turn out to be gay in disproportionate numbers, and does having a gay father expose a child to homophobic harassment. Concludes that concerns that gay fathers will have a negative impact on their children's development are unfounded.
The impact on the children of gay fathers based on 4 concerns. No negative impact.

That's NINE.

Green, R., Mandel, J. B., Hotvedt, M. E., Gray, J., & Smith, L. (1986). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175-181.

Compared the sexual identity and social relationships of 30 daughters and 26 sons (aged 3-11 yrs.) of 50 homosexual mothers with 28 daughters and 20 sons of 40 heterosexual mothers. Mothers were currently unmarried White women aged 25-46 years. In addition to age and race, mothers were matched on length of separation from father; educational level and income; and number, age, and sex of children. Subjects were from rural and urban areas in 10 U.S. states and lived without adult males in the household for a minimum of 2 years. Data from children's tests on intelligence, core-morphologic sexual identity, gender-role preferences, family and peer group relationships, and adjustment to the single-parent family indicate that there were no significant differences between the two types of households for boys and few significant differences for girls. Data also reveal more similarities than differences in parenting experiences, marital history, and present living situations of the two groups of mothers. It is suggested that the mother's sexual orientation per se should not enter into considerations on parental fitness that are commonly asserted in child custody cases.
Children's sexual identity when reared by lesbian mothers vs, heterosexual mothers was explored. No difference in boys; few in girls. Mostly, both groups were similar.

That's TEN.

Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.

Compared the psychosexual development, emotions, behavior, and relationships of 37 children (aged 5-17 yrs.) reared in 27 lesbian households with 38 children (aged 5-27 yrs.) reared in 27 heterosexual single-parent households. Systematic standardized interviews with the mothers and with the children, together with parent and teacher questionnaires, were used to make the psychosexual and psychiatric assessments. The two groups did not differ in terms of their gender identity, sex-role behavior, or sexual orientation. Also, they did not differ on most measures of emotions, behavior, and relationships, although there was some indication of more frequent psychiatric problems in the single-parent group. It is concluded that rearing in a lesbian household per se does not lead to atypical psychosexual development or constitute a psychiatric risk factor.
Children in lesbian households vs. those in single-parent heterosexual households on sexual identity. No significant difference. In fact, no difference on any emotional/behavioral scale.

That's ELEVEN.

Had enough, yet? No? OK.

Kirkpatrick, M., Smith, C., & Roy, R. (1981). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparative survey. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51, 545-551.

Forty 5- to 12-year-olds, divided equally into groups according to their mothers' sexual choice and within group by sex, were assessed with a developmental history, WISC scores, the Holtzman Inkblot Technique, and the Human Figure Drawing test. Subjects' gender development was not identifiably different in the two groups. Prevalence of disturbance was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual choice.
Children of lesbian mothers vs. heterosexual mothers in regards to developmental, intellectual, and emotional functioning. No significant difference.

That's TWELVE.

And that's enough for tonight.

Links used:

Lesbian & Gay Parents
Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents
Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian & Gay Parents & Their Children
Empirical Studies Generally Related to the Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children
Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children

DP posts referenced:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057543399-post326.html
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057543400-post327.html

There. This supports my position, not based on discrimination, but based on the importance of the family.

Enjoy.
 

Alastor

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Well, since you got me to answer your question and then went back afterwards and edited your post, I'll simply say this: It would be discrimination if it were based on something the person had no control over. I don't believe that to be the case regarding homosexuality. Therefore, it's not discrimination. As to your last statement, the same could be said for anyone else's positions here.
So you'd deny them the right to engage in a choice "just because."

It doesn't harm society. It doesn't degrade our laws. You'd just do it, "just because."

Fascinating.
 

mac

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If you're anti-discrimination, Mac, on what basis do you oppose gay marriage then?



That's a horrible argument that simply doesn't make sense, Mac.



What I've gotten out of this, Mac, is that you oppose gay marriage and while you claim you're anti-discriminatory, I don't see that actually coming through.

You seem to oppose gay marriage on the basis that it's gay marriage and nothing more.

I think you try to present yourself as logical and open, empirical and pragmatic, but when your arguments are finally pulled out and examined, they don't seem to pass those tests of reason.
It does make sense, horrible sentiment or not. For the record I am not comparing homosexuality to pedophilia..I wasn't the one to bring that up. What I am arguing is the concept of precedence.
 

mac

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So you'd deny them the right to engage in a choice "just because."

It doesn't harm society. It doesn't degrade our laws. You'd just do it, "just because."

Fascinating.
No, it will harm society. Just as women's lib has.
 

Alastor

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No, it will harm society. Just as women's lib has.
Bwahahahahahaha!

A) I noticed you have no "how" in your statement.

B) Did you really just say that? That's hillarious.

Clearly you're anti-discriminatory.



Anyway, this conversation is over. For me at least. I'm content to call it here. Have a great day.
 

mac

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Bwahahahahahaha!

A) I noticed you have no "how" in your statement.

B) Did you really just say that? That's hillarious.

Clearly you're anti-discriminatory.



Anyway, this conversation is over. For me at least. I'm content to call it here. Have a great day.
How? Environmental impact. Kids raising themselves due to parental absence. Nutritional impact due to parents not having time to cook real food. I didn't say women were inferior to men, I said there were negative impacts resulting from womens lib.
 

Alastor

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No, it will harm society. Just as women's lib has.
Thanks for the answer, Mac - although it was a totally non-answer backed up with no support, no sources, and no common sense, just like every other assertion you've made in this thread.

I don't mind that you're a biggot, a sexist, and that you're totally xenophbic.

What bothers me is that you lie about it.
 

mac

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Captain...thanks for posting those, I have some reading to do and I'll get back to you. However, it was never my contention that homosexuals can't be good parents. This seems to be the sole focus of your studies. My concern is societal impact. But, I will read them. I previously read two of them in research for my thesis, but will read the others.
 

mac

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Thanks for the answer, Mac - although it was a totally non-answer backed up with no support, no sources, and no common sense, just like every other assertion you've made in this thread.

I don't mind that you're a biggot, a sexist, and that you're totally xenophbic.

What bothers me is that you lie about it.
I'm not a bigot, I'm not sexist, and I'm not xenophobic. And, what have I lied about?
 

Alastor

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Do you react this way every time someone holds a differing opinion?
No, only when they have no facts to back it up, misrepresent themselves, try to pretend that they're being pragmatic when they're actually mysogynistic and xenophobic, and waste everyone's time by portraying themselves as scholarly when they're actually idealogues with a very expensive thesaurus.

Something about integrity... I guess it just matters to me.

I don't mind if you're the kind of person you turned out to be. I do mind if you blatantly pretend to be something other than that. If you honestly believed in your stance based on the merits of your stance, you wouldn't feel the need to lie about it and portray yourself as something else.

People don't lie when they think they're justified.


I'm not a bigot, I'm not sexist, and I'm not xenophobic. And, what have I lied about?
No, it will harm society. Just as women's lib has.
 

mac

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No, only when they have no facts to back it up, misrepresent themselves, try to pretend that they're being pragmatic when they're actually mysogynistic and xenophobic, and waste everyone's time by portraying themselves as scholarly when they're actually idealogues with a very expensive thesaurus.

Something about integrity... I guess it just matters to me.

I don't mind if you're the kind of person you turned out to be. I do mind if you blatantly pretend to be something other than that. If you honestly believed in your stance based on the merits of your stance, you wouldn't feel the need to lie about it and portray yourself as something else.

People don't lie when they think they're justified.
There you go calling me names again. What exactly have I lied about? Apparently you're a bit miffed about the women's lib statement...like i said earlier, I don't feel that women are inferior to men. However, the women's lib movement has certainly had negative impacts on our society. An inability to see the whole picture on your part doesn't make me a bigot, misogynistic, or xenophobic.
 

Thorgasm

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First, who do you think pays for my kid to go to school?
It depends on what school they go to. Most likely some federal money goes to that school so we all do.

Second, matters of sexuality shouldn't be taught at all in school. It's simply not their business.
Are you saying that marriage shouldn't be discussed at all?

Third, you have no more right to decide what is appropriate to be taught to my children than I do to yours, if you had them.
What if I am on the school board that sets the curriculum?
 

mac

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It depends on what school they go to. Most likely some federal money goes to that school so we all do.



Are you saying that marriage shouldn't be discussed at all?



What if I am on the school board that sets the curriculum?
no federal or state money goes to my child's school.
no.
You're not.
 

Thorgasm

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Well, since you got me to answer your question and then went back afterwards and edited your post, I'll simply say this: It would be discrimination if it were based on something the person had no control over. I don't believe that to be the case regarding homosexuality. Therefore, it's not discrimination. As to your last statement, the same could be said for anyone else's positions here.
Are you saying that it's not possible to discriminate against religion?
 

Thorgasm

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No, I'm not saying that.
But you said: "It would be discrimination if it were based on something the person had no control over."

You have control over your religion. ;)
 

mac

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But you said: "It would be discrimination if it were based on something the person had no control over."

You have control over your religion. ;)
Yes you do. That's one of the things that keeps me re-evaluating my position on this issue.
 

Thorgasm

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no federal or state money goes to my child's school.
no.
You're not.
How is gay marriage a "matter of sexuality" but hetero marriage isn't?
 

mac

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How is gay marriage a "matter of sexuality" but hetero marriage isn't?
How is that question related to that quote?

Maybe I don't understand the question as you intended it, but in the traditional sense, hetero marriage is related to sexuality but it's also related to religious beliefs and accepted societal norms.
 

Thorgasm

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How is that question related to that quote?

Maybe I don't understand the question as you intended it, but in the traditional sense, hetero marriage is related to sexuality but it's also related to religious beliefs and accepted societal norms.
You said:

Second, matters of sexuality shouldn't be taught at all in school. It's simply not their business.
We were talking about gay marriage. For you to be consistent, you would have to apply this to hetero marriage.

The religious aspect has nothing to do with a civics class.

Homosexuality has been accepted as a societal norm. The APA has decided that it is a normal variant of human sexuality. By your logic, it's not illegal to be gay therefore it is accepted.
 

mac

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You said:



We were talking about gay marriage. For you to be consistent, you would have to apply this to hetero marriage.

The religious aspect has nothing to do with a civics class.

Homosexuality has been accepted as a societal norm. The APA has decided that it is a normal variant of human sexuality. By your logic, it's not illegal to be gay therefore it is accepted.
I do apply it to hetero marriage. The APA accepting homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality isn't quite the same thing as society accepting it. If it had, than homosexual marriage wouldn't have been voted down as often and in so many places as it has.
 

winston53660

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I do apply it to hetero marriage. The APA accepting homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality isn't quite the same thing as society accepting it. If it had, than homosexual marriage wouldn't have been voted down as often and in so many places as it has.
In Texas when gay marriage was on the ballot only 13% of the eligible voters showed up. I would propose that the majority really just don't care.
 
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Thorgasm

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I do apply it to hetero marriage.
Then you do think that marriage shouldn't be discussed in school.

The APA accepting homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality isn't quite the same thing as society accepting it. If it had, than homosexual marriage wouldn't have been voted down as often and in so many places as it has.
And this is where I disagree and agree with CC. The government has no interest in excluding homosexuals from being able to marry other homosexuals. The government is discriminating against homosexuals because of societal fears. This happened with interracial marriage. To a degree early on, people were correct about concerns of biracial kids being shunned by both sides. Society has gotten past that and is for the better now. I'd be interested to see how people would vote if a law would need to be past to legalize interfaith marriages.

Civil rights should not be put to a vote. "Fear of the unknown" based bigotry in a society is the reason why.

Other countries have legalized it. They are fine. Gays can raise families. There is no down side to legalizing it. Unsubstantiated fears don't count. There are existing models that exist.
 
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