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Gay culture or Death culture?

Why do they have to get it from their husbands?
If they are monogomous they get it from their husbands. Lesbians are the lowest rated for getting STD's. Go figure. These straight married women are getting it from somewhere.
 
Well Crit...some of the risks in homosexual populations are purely biological in nature and nothing can be done about that. If you made all things equal in terms of practicing condom use, monogamy, etc between a control set of straight people and gay people, you would still see higher infection rates among the gay men because it's just biologically easier to transmit the disease because anal sex lends itself to the transmission of it easier. And no, you aren't gonna get homos to stop practicing anal sex so I don't what you expect to happen.

Risky behavior is personal, not cultural. You have a personal responsibility to protect yourself and use good judgment. Failure to do that and becoming an AIDS statistic is not something that can be blamed on your peers or a group identity. Where you stick your willy and whether you wrap it or not is all on you. No "movement" necessary.

Jallman, you are absolutely correct about Crit's personal responsibility, as well as the other facts that you raise: The biology involved and so forth. But, don't you think that some of the things he has said have some validity? Maybe It would be nice if there was a movement (again), not to protect him, but to help bring down the rate of infection for its own sake.

As for the promiscuity, I think that family life is also a contributing factor to the lower promiscuity of straight couples. Nearly every couple I know who 'swings' either don't seem to have kids or they are grown or they don't have primary custody, etc. I'm just thinking that there may be a lot of factors at play. Your remarks about marriage are spot on.
 
If they are monogomous they get it from their husbands. Lesbians are the lowest rated for getting STD's. Go figure. These straight married women are getting it from somewhere.

They could be sleeping around, it's not necessarily the husbands fault.


And on an unrelated note, I saw an article somewhere that said circumcision on men can lower their risk of contracting HIV by 60%, it has something to do with the cells in the foreskin.
 
Jallman, you are absolutely correct about Crit's personal responsibility, as well as the other facts that you raise: The biology involved and so forth. But, don't you think that some of the things he has said have some validity? Maybe It would be nice if there was a movement (again), not to protect him, but to help bring down the rate of infection for its own sake.

As for the promiscuity, I think that family life is also a contributing factor to the lower promiscuity of straight couples. Nearly every couple I know who 'swings' either don't seem to have kids or they are grown or they don't have primary custody, etc. I'm just thinking that there may be a lot of factors at play. Your remarks about marriage are spot on.

What's another movement really gonna do? I lived through the "ZOMGWTF, its teh AIDS!!!" movement. Everything was about paranoia and nothing was about actually addressing personal responsibility. And yeah, the infection rates dropped for a time but as soon as it wasn't the boogey man hiding under everyone's briefs, people got lax again and started the same behaviors that led to the outbreak the first time. And that's all that will happen again. It's as futile as everyone wearing masks during the the bird flu scare...as soon as people stopped talking about it, the masks came off.

I just think that if we educate kids about their responsibilities to their own health and arm them with a no compromise attitude about sexual hygeine, you are much better served within a generation than you are posting billboards and having anti-buttsecks rallies. :shrug:
 
Well Crit...some of the risks in homosexual populations are purely biological in nature and nothing can be done about that. If you made all things equal in terms of practicing condom use, monogamy, etc between a control set of straight people and gay people, you would still see higher infection rates among the gay men because it's just biologically easier to transmit the disease because anal sex lends itself to the transmission of it easier. And no, you aren't gonna get homos to stop practicing anal sex so I don't what you expect to happen.

Risky behavior is personal, not cultural. You have a personal responsibility to protect yourself and use good judgment. Failure to do that and becoming an AIDS statistic is not something that can be blamed on your peers or a group identity. Where you stick your willy and whether you wrap it or not is all on you. No "movement" necessary.

I have not always been personally responsible in this matter and I'm highly educated when it comes to the risks of HIV. I'm not making excuses for putting my life at risk, but I'm well aware of how easy it is in the heat of the moment to forgo a condom if you don't have one on hand. A fact complicated by the matter that someone you trust can withhold important information about their status and sexual history. The old saying that you should always assume that your sexual partner is HIV positive cannot be emphasized enough.

There are cultural factors at work that affect how gay men view safe sex and the disease. Culture goes a long way in influencing how we perceive ourselves, our health, and our responsibilities to one another.

As far as risk, it can become negligible if the correct actions are taken. I do believe that gay men can forgo anal sex until they are in an exclusive relationship because heterosexual couples can forgo vaginal sex into they are in an exclusive relationship. The risk is never completely gone, but anal sex is the primary culprit and it falls to us to understand our attitudes regarding anal sex and its risks. More gay couples are moving away from anal sex because they feel it mimics heterosexual sexual relationships and because the health risks for anal sex can extend beyond STDs. It is troubling that this sexual practice has become so ingrained in gay culture and is often seen as in-extractable from homosexuality.
 
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What's another movement really gonna do? I lived through the "ZOMGWTF, its teh AIDS!!!" movement. Everything was about paranoia and nothing was about actually addressing personal responsibility. And yeah, the infection rates dropped for a time but as soon as it wasn't the boogey man hiding under everyone's briefs, people got lax again and started the same behaviors that led to the outbreak the first time. And that's all that will happen again. It's as futile as everyone wearing masks during the the bird flu scare...as soon as people stopped talking about it, the masks came off.

I just think that if we educate kids about their responsibilities to their own health and arm them with a no compromise attitude about sexual hygeine, you are much better served within a generation than you are posting billboards and having anti-buttsecks rallies. :shrug:

1 in 5 men who have sex with men are HIV positive! That is a pretty big boogey man hiding under the bed!

It is given that antivirals have put the virus at bay for now, but for how long? These things have a tendency to mutate and adapt and it will be only a matter of time before antiviral resistant strains become predominant.

I'm not trying to scare people or to follow in the path of the old movements. To the contrary. I feel it is important to change gay culture's attitudes about anal sex and relationships, not to invoke a culture of fear of disease.
 
It's a shame that there's still such a pre-deterministic attitude surrounding gays and HIV, but really, that's what happens when you look at statistics only and try to form broad generalizations based on entire groups. Man A can stick to monogamous relationships and always have protected sex; Man B can be the opposite, visiting bath houses and bare backing; statistically speaking, both men are part of the same "high risk group" that the 1 in 5 statistic applies to. It's not very realistic to examine it that way.

The notion that gay culture is hypersexual is true. You put two men together who are attracted to each other, and that's what happens. But also, most homosexual men have a delayed sexual development process. Where heterosexuals are already dating and forming their first relationships in adolescence, most gay men aren't even self-aware until their early 20's. It creates one big delayed reaction where they have all the wonders of adult autonomy meeting a world of new sexual experiences waiting to happen. It can lead to a lot of unsafe behavior, but as Jallman said, it comes down to individual and personal responsibility. Heterosexuals grow up with a world of social reinforcement and queues to the approval of their behavior everywhere: in media, traditions, in their peer groups and communities; homosexuals don't have that. We essentially have community-reinforced behaviors only and a lot of it is based on the delayed adolescent fantasies becoming part of an adult playground.

I agree that opening up monogamous institutions like marriage to gays is partly the antidote, but that's not going to address decades worth of irresponsible behavior in some people. Gays need to be integrated into normalcy in general so that their social and sexual development isn't so delayed. But that's hard to do when sex ed classes barely even touch on the subject of same-sex relations. I know they didn't in my schools growing up, and that would have helped me immensely.

It starts with childhood, and goes on from there. Even in Canada where we have less of a conservative lobby trying to water down sex education, it seems like STIs are still becoming rampant. There's now a medication-resistant strain of syphilis in Vancouver. The first cases were among heterosexuals but it is now spreading rapidly in the gay community; but it's worthwhile to note that this is the visible, self-identifying gay community. There are a lot of "straight" married men having affairs with men in an unsafe capacity, spreading disease, but whom still identify as straight. This goes back to the delayed social/sexual development aspect, and the intense denial that often accompanies it.

Many gays in the community would not be involved in such underground behavior if their identity was brought into the mainstream and accepted. Then they'd develop normative social queues, instead of relying on porn and movies about gay clubbing lifestyles as their guides to adulthood. As long as they are treated like the "other", they are going to have to figure a lot of stuff out on their own and through peer groups, just like all adolescents would if sex education were stricken from the syllabus.
 
1 in 5 men who have sex with men are HIV positive! That is a pretty big boogey man hiding under the bed!

It is given that antivirals have put the virus at bay for now, but for how long? These things have a tendency to mutate and adapt and it will be only a matter of time before antiviral resistant strains become predominant.

I'm not trying to scare people or to follow in the path of the old movements. To the contrary. I feel it is important to change gay culture's attitudes about anal sex and relationships, not to invoke a culture of fear of disease.

I don't know a lot about gay culture, but it does seem like there are things being done. I have seen PSAs that announce the risk openly to gay men and encourage gay men to have protected and/or monogamous sex and to get tested annually. This, along with more societal acceptance and an end to gays having to hide it, are the best ways that I can see to socially work toward more responsible behavior. What other suggestions do you have? I don't see a lot of gay men denying that they are in the highest risk group for AIDS. I don't understand what the issue is.
 
I'm at my wit's end with gay culture. Promiscuity and unsafe sex are rampant and fueling the spread of HIV. Gay culture has returned to the culture of death that it was in the 80s.

There is a fatalism about it. Many of the gay men I meet nowadays believe that they are going to get the disease if they haven't already and have no desire to know whether they have the disease and are spreading it. As my gay roommate puts it, "I don't intend to live to old age." Even on Craigslist there are literally thousands of men seeking men for unsafe sex only.

What can you do about a culture that has become completely ambivalent to the disease it is helping carry and spread?

The antiviral medications that were hailed as the greatest innovation against the disease have aided in its spread by focusing efforts towards treatment rather than prevention. The medications do not last forever and eventually people do succumb to the virus at a younger age than they would had they not become infected.

The only solutions I can perceive at this point are monogamy or celibacy. Either you don't have sex or you only have sex within a committed relationship. At this point to be truly safe within a relationship gay men have to forgo unsafe sex with each other until both partners have been tested 6 months after their last sexual contact with someone outside the relationship. It can take up to 6 months for antibodies to show up on an HIV test.

I used to think condoms were an answer, but if you don't have one available or you unwisely choose to trust the person you are with then you still fall into trouble. The lack of spontaneity and the interruption of sexual activities also make condoms unattractive options. And then there is the difference of sensation.

What can be done?

CDC: Gay, bisexual men account for more than 50% of HIV cases

foodconsumer.org - CDC: Gay, bisexual men account for more than 50% of HIV cases



Alberta expert fears HIV ambivalence

Alberta expert fears HIV ambivalence | Mindelle Jacobs | Columnists | Comment | Edmonton Sun



Young gay men fueling HIV epidemic, study warns

Young gay men fuelling HIV epidemic, study warns | Society | The Guardian

I fail to understand why you're at your wit's end about it. It's their problem. So it's their responsibiilty to solve it. Nothing I say or do is going to influence their behavior -- you neither. It's not that gays don't know or realize that unprotected anal sex is the riskiest of behaviors. They know it and they choose not to care. So why should society? We treat them when they're sick. It's the best we can do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
 
I fail to understand why you're at your wit's end about it. It's their problem. So it's their responsibiilty to solve it. Nothing I say or do is going to influence their behavior -- you neither. It's not that some gays don't know or realize that unprotected anal sex is the riskiest of behaviors. Some know it and they choose not to care. So why should society? We treat them when they're sick. It's the best we can do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Corrected.

The us vs. them mentality is unfortunate. As I said in my previous post, a lot of so-called straight men are also having unprotected sex with other men in extra marital affairs. That then puts their female partners at risk. People who think that there is some imaginary barrier between gays and straights when it comes to HIV/AIDS are deluding themselves. The group that continues to perpetuate it the most are careless men, whether they are 'straight' or 'gay'. Women, and especially black or hispanic women, are not that far behind in the ranks for the demographic with the highest HIV rates.
 
I fail to understand why you're at your wit's end about it. It's their problem. So it's their responsibiilty to solve it. Nothing I say or do is going to influence their behavior -- you neither. It's not that gays don't know or realize that unprotected anal sex is the riskiest of behaviors. They know it and they choose not to care. So why should society? We treat them when they're sick. It's the best we can do. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Well forgive me if I'm afraid of seeing my friends get sick and die.

I'm not trying to save anyone. I just don't believe the gay community is putting forth its best effort.
 
Well forgive me if I'm afraid of seeing my friends get sick and die.

I'm not trying to save anyone. I just don't believe the gay community is putting forth its best effort.

Sex isn't a community issue. It's a personal issue. The only time sex should be a community issue is when the school teaches proper sex practices and reinforces good safe sexual practice.

There is zero benefit in launching another campaign to bring awareness to an issue that we generally try to keep private to start with. Make safe sex YOUR choice. Make your health your PERSONAL responsibility. That's all you can do.
 
Sex isn't a community issue.

This I profoundly disagree with. If sex were purely a personal issue, then marriage would not exist.

That's all you can do.

I disagree. Perhaps it is the individualism of gay culture that aids in the spread of this disease. As people have lost sight of the social obligations they have to one another and the necessity of commitments in relationships, it has opened us up to these problems. Maybe it is individualism in general, and the view that this is only a personal problem and not a community problem, that has allowed this disease to spread as it has.
 
This I profoundly disagree with. If sex were purely a personal issue, then marriage would not exist.

Marriage isn't about sex. If it were, so many married people wouldn't be unhappy. But in all seriousness, sex isn't a community aspect of marriage in the least.

I disagree. Perhaps it is the individualism of gay culture that aids in the spread of this disease. As people have lost sight of the social obligations they have to one another and the necessity of commitments in relationships, it has opened us up to these problems. Maybe it is individualism in general, and the view that this is only a personal problem and not a community problem, that has allowed this disease to spread as it has.

I'm not saying you don't have obligations to your partners. However, they come secondary to your obligations to your own health and well-being. Personal responsibility with a no compromise attitude toward good sexual practices that protect YOU...take care of that first and all other obligations to your partners will naturally follow.
 
Marriage isn't about sex. If it were, so many married people wouldn't be unhappy.


reminds me of an old joke:

What is the world's best birth control???


Wedding Cake
 
But in all seriousness, sex isn't a community aspect of marriage in the least.

What are you talking about? Marriage exists to regulate the sexual behavior between men and women, to ensure paternity, and to ensure that a child is raised by their biological parents. The meaning of marriage has changed a lot over the last century, but the regulation of sexual behavior is why marriage has formed in virtually every culture in the world. Why do you suppose that cheating and adultery is so condemned?

I'm not saying you don't have obligations to your partners. However, they come secondary to your obligations to your own health and well-being. Personal responsibility with a no compromise attitude toward good sexual practices that protect YOU...take care of that first and all other obligations to your partners will naturally follow.

No. You have personal responsibility because you have a responsibility to your friends, family, and community. It is this idea that responsibility for health is an individual issue that is wrong. People are responsible for their own health because of the obligations they have to others. You don't get to take risks with your own health and pretend that it doesn't affect others. If you get sick and die you can't pretend that it isn't a burden to society and your family. If you don't get tested and are unsafely sleeping around with many people, then you don't get to pretend that it's entirely the fault of whoever unwisely chooses to sleep with you if they get infected. That is bull****. You have a personal responsibility to your own health only because you have a responsibility to protect others. Choosing to put your health at risk is one of the most selfish things you can do because of the pain you will put those who care about you through.
 
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What are you talking about? Marriage exists to regulate the sexual behavior between men and women, to ensure paternity, and to ensure that a child is raised by their biological parents. The meaning of marriage has changed a lot over the last century, but the regulation of sexual behavior is why marriage has formed in virtually every culture in the world. Why do you suppose that cheating and adultery is so condemned?
Social marriage serves no purpose other than to simplify inheritance rights and child custody issues. It has no other purpose on a social level.


No. You have personal responsibility because you have a responsibility to your friends, family, and community. It is this idea that responsibility for health is an individual issue that is wrong. People are responsible for their own health because of the obligations they have to others.

WRONG. Your personal responsibility for your health is to you and you alone. No one else is going to look after your health for you as well as you look after it yourself.

You don't get to take risks with your own health and pretend that it doesn't affect others. If you get sick and die you can't pretend that it isn't a burden to society and your family. If you don't get tested and are unsafely sleeping around with many people, then you don't get to pretend that it's entirely the fault of whoever unwisely chooses to sleep with you if they get infected. That is bull****. You have a personal responsibility to your own health only because you have a responsibility to protect others. Choosing to put your health at risk is one of the most selfish things you can do because of the pain you will put those who care about you through.

Did you not read a thing I said? Let me repeat it for you so it sinks in this time...If your keep your personal responsibilities to your health in order, then your responsibilities to others will naturally follow.

If you sleep with someone who is infected and get infected because you didn't practice safe sex with them, you have no one to blame but you for compromising your personal responsibilities to your own health.
 
It seems we have a philosophical difference of opinion. In my line of work, I'm required to view how the environment and society shape our personal behaviors. The degree to which we exercise personal responsibility is limited by a number of factors. Education, family obligation, values, norms, customs, traditions, social roles, etc. are all factors that shape our behaviors. If we feel that our health is solely our responsibility then we can justify taking greater risks because we can ignore their impact on the greater society. Furthermore, if our culture lacks the factors like norms and values regarding sexual behavior then we don't have the emotional motivators that keep us in line. Humans are not rational creatures. We make decisions based on emotions, and rational oversight exists simply to sway our emotions with the pros and cons associated with choices. However, if we perceive the cons of risky sexual behavior to apply to only to ourselves then we are more likely to engage in them and to put others at risk.
 
I have not seen any statistics that suggest that the number of men who openly identify as gay has dramatically increased, so I have no reason to believe that is a viable option.

Why can't you just accept that gays are practicing unsafe sex and its leading to higher and higher levels of HIV infection.

Its like watching people run headlong into a wall full of razor blades. "We have no problems"..."those statistics are wrong!" "No one I know acts like that"...meanwhile a recent report indicated some 20 percent of gay males in 21 major cities now have HIV...and half dont know it...la la la la la we arent listening...we arent listening...

Safe sex...not just to avoid spreading STDs...but to avoid killing your partner...

Just another patch on an AIDS quilt somewhere...

Its painful. Its sad.
 
Corrected.

The us vs. them mentality is unfortunate. As I said in my previous post, a lot of so-called straight men are also having unprotected sex with other men in extra marital affairs. That then puts their female partners at risk. People who think that there is some imaginary barrier between gays and straights when it comes to HIV/AIDS are deluding themselves. The group that continues to perpetuate it the most are careless men, whether they are 'straight' or 'gay'. Women, and especially black or hispanic women, are not that far behind in the ranks for the demographic with the highest HIV rates.

The post was about the gay community and gay culture. I can't do anything about that.

I don't delude myself. I asked my current sexual partner (my significant other of ten years) to be tested before we had sex. I wasn't tested because he didn't care if I was or not. He had a level of trust I didn't have. And, of course, I knew I didn't have HIV. He's not bi-sexual. He's straight. He doesn't cheat. How do I know? Well, I guess I don't know for sure. If lightening strikes, so be it. But that's what it'd take.

How many times are we going to hit people over the head to protect their own health?? What are we going to do?? Outlaw sex? Yes, there are innocent victims. Innocent partners in committed relationships. CHILDREN!! Thank God they are are very small percentage. I care. I just understand there's not a damn thing I can do about it. That society can do about it. That government can do about it. The only people who can do something about it are the people having unprotected sex.
 
Well forgive me if I'm afraid of seeing my friends get sick and die.

I'm not trying to save anyone. I just don't believe the gay community is putting forth its best effort.

Yeah, I came off harsh, didn't I? I guess I meant to, but, in hindsight, my bad, CT. Everyone knows the gay community (as a whole) isn't putting forth its best effort. Responsible organizations preach and PREACH about safe sex in the homosexual community. YOU'VE preached. To your personal FRIENDS. It's up to them. And, as Orion points out in his post, it's up to all of US.
 
However, if we perceive the cons of risky sexual behavior to apply to only to ourselves then we are more likely to engage in them and to put others at risk.

I think we are talking past each other. I am not making any comment on why we show personal responsibility or what motivates it. I am simply pointing out the need for personal responsibility as a matter of course in dealing with people who don't feel responsible for your well-being.

For me, I am responsible for my health because I love me and cannot fathom life without me in it. I found myself very sick once with the possibility of dying. It was a wake up call and now I am almost obsessive about my health. What motivates others, who knows? I can just speak for my own motivations.
 
I think we are talking past each other. I am not making any comment on why we show personal responsibility or what motivates it. I am simply pointing out the need for personal responsibility as a matter of course in dealing with people who don't feel responsible for your well-being.

For me, I am responsible for my health because I love me and cannot fathom life without me in it. I found myself very sick once with the possibility of dying. It was a wake up call and now I am almost obsessive about my health. What motivates others, who knows? I can just speak for my own motivations.

You won't get very far in life if you are only living for yourself. I hate to agree with the social conservative perspective, but I do think gay culture has become a culture of self gratification. A self gratifying culture does not have values, norms, customs, attitudes, roles, etc. that promote health. In fact, it will do the opposite. It will glorify risk because risk can increase the pleasure that people can derive from a sexual situation. The popularity of bare backing porn should emphasize this point.

But maybe that is the point. Maybe gays just don't have much reason to live aside from self gratification. It's not like they have the norms of getting married and having children that saturate heterosexual culture. Perhaps marriage is an answer. It may be just too early to tell because same sex marriage ha only existed for 10 years. It may take a generation or two before new norms are established and gay men have more reason to look out for their health.
 
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Is it possible that I can agree with Orion, Jallman, and Criticalthought all three and not be in contradiction?
 
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